Open warfare in South Ossetia

[HisSelf]

Right, but some people never want to let the facts get in the way of a good argument!

As has been pointed out already, the Republic of Georgia is part of the Bush Administration's naked ambition of becoming the controlling force in all of the former Soviet Republics. including the ones in Eastern Europe, Georgia, Ukraine, Azerbaijan, Kazakhstan, Turkmenistan etc. -- encircling Russia with Nato allies armed with missiles, and ofcourse getting oil contracts and pipelines built to bring their oil to Western markets. Looking at the big picture, I don't blame the Russians for trying to project power and control countries that were formerly independent in name only during the Soviet Era.

Yowzah! The exactamundo facts on the ground. Cuba anyone?

[capricorn]

As has been pointed out already, the Republic of Georgia is part of the Bush Administration's naked ambition of becoming the controlling force in all of the former Soviet Republics. including the ones in Eastern Europe, Georgia, Ukraine, Azerbaijan, Kazakhstan, Turkmenistan etc. -- encircling Russia with Nato allies armed with missiles, and ofcourse getting oil contracts and pipelines built to bring their oil to Western markets.

This is why the present conflict is touted as a the rekindling of the cold war. In actuality, this will give new life to NATO and enhance its profile. So here are two question. In the overall scheme of things, is it better for the US or the Russians to have the upper hand in those territories? If the US truly intends to divert oil to western markets, which markets would the Russians divert the oil to if it gains control of the region unimpeded?

And since the U.S. is tied up with Iraq and Afghanistan, they have nothing to offer, in the way of military assistance to their Georgian allies.

Given this scenario NATO will become the US's best friend. There is strength in numbers.

[bush_cheney2004]

....Anyone who did not see Putin as a ruthless facist years ago is dreaming. He is quintessential KGB. He is trained to be a lethal soldier. It was only a matter of time and quite frankly I think Putin would have sat quite content to do nothing for another time period had Bush not been such a jack-ass and caused him to lose face in the macho world of posturing by showing what Putin felt was disrespect with missile placement in Czechoslovakia.

Putin was boxed long before that...which way to Iraq ?!

Its typical American ignorance. They have this moron for a President who is oblivious to how his comments and tactics are perceived by others. The Bush foreign policy is classic myopic John Wayne stupidity with zero subtlety.

That would make him a very important moron. Something wrong with this logic......

Putin has basically signalled the Middle East to consider the US a joke. The only question is was it intentional or is he egging Iran on into confronting the US as well. If that does happen, its Russia that stands to make money. If Iran's oil wells are blown up, suddenly its Russian oil the West needs.

...and where does most Iranian oil go (not west).

Putin is playing the US like the prize putz it is crippled by Bush's disasterous foreign policy.

Yep...US crosses oceans while Putin crosses the street.

All that said this does not change the fact Russia has acted illegally and like one would expect from a facist regime.

The people of Georgia are on their own and that is too bad. They should not be.

Well, it sure as hell won't be Canada to the rescue!

[GostHacked]

Alright, so it comes down to major powers securing resources for the next century to survive.

M Daner.

If the US is involved then Canada and half of Europe must be involved. I think the difficulty you may be having is with the word involved....it has actually a real definition and that definition isn't tangential association.

There are oil and gas lines in Georgia that feed Europe. There was a report last year or earlier this year with the energy crisis in the Ukraine. Russia shut off the taps because of a dispute in price. This went on for about a month or so. Europe did put preassure on Russia to turn the taps back on. Georgia is independant and is a US ally in the war on terror. They want to be a part of NATO (if they are not already) and is also wanting to get into the Europeaon Union. So yes, Europe and the US and Canada to that extent, have a large interest in Georgia.

Like the wars in Iraq and Aghanistan, it is about securing resources. Iraq should soon surpass its prewar output levels. Iran is being targeted, and we already know that Iran is stuffed with untapped oil feilds. The Straigh of Hormuz is another flashpoint. Anything getting to Europe by ship will be taking the long way around Africa if that happens. This is why the US navy has send a couple more carrier fleets to the Gulf. The US can operate in the Gulf indefinately if they can secure Iraq's resources for the military power that is operating there and the gulf.

http://www.defenselink.mil/news/newsarticle.aspx?id=15323

The business, civic, organizational and academic leaders, all participants in the Joint Civilian Orientation Conference, visited the world's largest aircraft carrier on its maiden deployment to the Persian Gulf.

You don't send in the big guns for no reason. This is a show of force to Iran, and really to Russia. The US in retrospect, was watching this conflict and thought something would happen. This is why they sent the fleets earlier this year. If the US and Russia decide to get busy with another Cold War, this one will be a little more spectacular.

Yes, Europe, the US, Canada, the UK are all involved.

[bush_cheney2004]

You don't send in the big guns for no reason. This is a show of force to Iran, and really to Russia. The US in retrospect, was watching this conflict and thought something would happen. This is why they sent the fleets earlier this year. If the US and Russia decide to get busy with another Cold War, this one will be a little more spectacular.

The "fleets" are in a normal deployment rotation and USS Kitty Hawk is about to be retired from service, but a fire onboard USS George Washington delayed things a bit. Nothing special for Russia....just the normal display of sea power, so essential to empires dont'cha know.

Yes, Europe, the US, Canada, the UK are all involved.

How are they involved...like a chicken is "involved" with a ham and egg breakfast? Georgia is the ham.

[M.Dancer]

They want to be a part of NATO (if they are not already) and is also wanting to get into the Europeaon Union. So yes, Europe and the US and Canada to that extent, have a large interest in Georgia.

Having interests and being complicit in the invasion and dismemering of Georgia are two different things and you seem unable to differentiate between the two.

Like the wars in Iraq and Aghanistan, it is about securing resources.

Why would you bring that up? Do you think everyone has forgotten how badly you were pantsed with that? How much Iraqi oil goes to the US? How much iraqi oil revenue?

[myata]

(double post)

Edited August 13, 2008 by myata

[myata]

Right, but some people never want to let the facts get in the way of a good argument!

Right, Georgia never invaded Ossetia and is being dismembered as we speak.

US was attacked by Afghanistan and Iraq in its own territory with ballistic missiles and WMD.

"War is peace", who cares.

Edited August 13, 2008 by myata

[WIP]

Right, Georgia never invaded Ossetia and is being dismembered as we speak.

War is peace, who cares.

Yes, never let the facts get in the way of a good argument:

Georgia launched the major offensive to regain control over South Ossetia overnight Friday.

Lavrov told reporters Saturday that some 1,500 people had been killed in South Ossetia since Friday, with the death toll rising. The figures could not be independently confirmed.

But residents of the South Ossentian provincial capital Tskhinvali who survived the bombardment by hiding in basements and later fled the city estimated that hundreds of civilians had died. They said bodies were lying everywhere.

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5hV2N6fV...IdaZ4QD92FDLSG0

[WIP]

This is why the present conflict is touted as a the rekindling of the cold war. In actuality, this will give new life to NATO and enhance its profile.

Well, many of us who started school back in the good old days of the Cold War, when we were taught to hide under our wooden desks in case of nuclear attack, would rather not have to breath new life into NATO in the first place! We could still end up with a full-scale nuclear war - that everyone thinks we dodged at the collapse of the Soviet Union - when policies are made by people who act before thinking through the consequences.

And here's a good place to start! A little ferreting around, reveals that the Georgian invasion of South Ossetia was encouraged by the Bush Administration, who were either stupider than usual, or deliberately financed Georgia's military buildup, knowing full well that it would be used for the purpose of invading territories that were de facto independent since the fall of the Soviet Union:

According to Cheterian, the Georgian defence ministry announced in early May 2007 that it will sharply increase its current defence budget, from 513 to 957 million lari ($304m to $567m). This escalation follows an already impressive rise in defense spending since the "Rose revolution." This means that since the arrival to power of Mikheil Saakashvili, defence spending has continued on an upward spiral.

Georgia's military plans have caused alarm among diplomats and others in the international community who prefer a peaceful coexistence of the various ethnic groups who inhabit the Caucasus region.

" - The fact that the two new barracks are close to the conflict-zones of Abkhazia and South Ossetia has led to concerns among both the de-facto governments of those two regions and the international community that seeks a peaceful resolution to these conflicts," explains Vicken Cheterian.

So here are two question. In the overall scheme of things, is it better for the US or the Russians to have the upper hand in those territories?

As it stands now, the U.S. is not going to have the luxury of exercising power in the Caucasus, regardless of what's on the wish list! It's a moot point to begin with! If the U.S. had the upper hand right now, they would have sent military assistance, or threatened military action against the Russians. They haven't because it's not an option; and they never should have encouraged the President of Georgia to believe that he had U.S. backing to forcibly retake the breadaway territories!

If the US truly intends to divert oil to western markets, which markets would the Russians divert the oil to if it gains control of the region unimpeded?

Given this scenario NATO will become the US's best friend. There is strength in numbers.

If the pipeline - which is the source of all this intrigue - had been run along the shortest route, it would have run through Russia, and the Russians likely would have been happy with a piece of the action! And, let's not forget, that the problem of securing future sources of oil - that motivated the Bush Admin. to make an aggressive move into former Soviet territories - could have served as a notice to invest the money in developing alternative sources of energy, instead of using the military to try to secure more oil!

[Army Guy]

And here's a good place to start! A little ferreting around, reveals that the Georgian invasion of South Ossetia was encouraged by the Bush Administration, who were either stupider than usual, or deliberately financed Georgia's military buildup, knowing full well that it would be used for the purpose of invading territories that were de facto independent since the fall of the Soviet Union

Thats a pretty big claim, and i would hardly say a total of 67 mil us dollars spread out over 6 years could be considered a build-up....with last years being the largest, a whopping 34 mil which included 10 old UH-1 helo's....

In todays world 67 mil would be pocket change when considering just how much the US hands out world wide for assistance....plus the price of modern military equipment, 67 mil could not even purchase a modern fighter aircraft, you might get a really small fleet of trucks for that price....

If the US was serious at putting in a presence it would have been in the multi bil dollar range....

[M.Dancer]

Georgia invaded their own country? The dastards!!

[M.Dancer]

Well, many of us who started school back in the good old days of the Cold War, when we were taught to hide under our wooden desks in case of nuclear attack, would rather not have to breath new life into NATO in the first place!

You must have grown up in the Warsaw pact then....for those of us who grew up in freedom, we thank NATO for preserving the freedoms we cherish and for being a bulwark against soviet expansionism.

[Rue]

Alright, so it comes down to major powers securing resources for the next century to survive.

M Daner.

There are oil and gas lines in Georgia that feed Europe. There was a report last year or earlier this year with the energy crisis in the Ukraine. Russia shut off the taps because of a dispute in price. This went on for about a month or so. Europe did put preassure on Russia to turn the taps back on. Georgia is independant and is a US ally in the war on terror. They want to be a part of NATO (if they are not already) and is also wanting to get into the Europeaon Union. So yes, Europe and the US and Canada to that extent, have a large interest in Georgia.

Like the wars in Iraq and Aghanistan, it is about securing resources. Iraq should soon surpass its prewar output levels. Iran is being targeted, and we already know that Iran is stuffed with untapped oil feilds. The Straigh of Hormuz is another flashpoint. Anything getting to Europe by ship will be taking the long way around Africa if that happens. This is why the US navy has send a couple more carrier fleets to the Gulf. The US can operate in the Gulf indefinately if they can secure Iraq's resources for the military power that is operating there and the gulf.

http://www.defenselink.mil/news/newsarticle.aspx?id=15323

You don't send in the big guns for no reason. This is a show of force to Iran, and really to Russia. The US in retrospect, was watching this conflict and thought something would happen. This is why they sent the fleets earlier this year. If the US and Russia decide to get busy with another Cold War, this one will be a little more spectacular.

Yes, Europe, the US, Canada, the UK are all involved.

Agree with your analysis. British Petroleum by the way is the biggest player in Georgia if anyone is interested.

[Rue]

Thats a pretty big claim, and i would hardly say a total of 67 mil us dollars spread out over 6 years could be considered a build-up....with last years being the largest, a whopping 34 mil which included 10 old UH-1 helo's....

In todays world 67 mil would be pocket change when considering just how much the US hands out world wide for assistance....plus the price of modern military equipment, 67 mil could not even purchase a modern fighter aircraft, you might get a really small fleet of trucks for that price....

If the US was serious at putting in a presence it would have been in the multi bil dollar range....

Absolutely.

[moderateamericain]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/georgia_russia

Update 13 minutes ago

Well Im going to be honest with you and say I believe that if Russia takes control of Georgia. The next 10 years are going to be very dangerous. Especially for those of you that live in Europe. If the US backs down from Russia, the whole ideal of defending democracy is dead. THe reason we fight in Iraq now is dead. Why? Because if we don't defend the ideals that we cherish then our word is meaningless. God forbid Russia decideds to get adventersome in Urkaine or latvia. If they do I trully believe we will all be strapping on helmets. or again for me.

Edited August 13, 2008 by moderateamericain

[Argus]

Just to make sure we use correct terminology here - and avoid any further confusion; prior to Georgian assault, Russian peackeepers were in the region legally (US State Dept):

Georgia's attacks Thursday night violated both the ceasefire and peacekeeping agreement, so who's the agressor and invader?

The previous agreement was made when Russia was a democratic country, aka before Putin, and I note you fail to mention what caused Georgia's "invasion" - how do you invade your own country anyway - that being the sniping and shelling coming from the "breakaway province".

The question whether Russian response was proportionate should be answered when investigation is complete and all facts are available.

The world has already answered that question as it's fairly self-evident.

And most certainly, in the light of previous similar acts by the NATO and the US (like bombing of Serbia in Kosovo conflict, invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan).

As I said earlier, there is a difference between free nations attacking thuggish dictators and thuggish dictators attacking free nations. It's really sad that your moral code doesn't seem to grasp that.

[Argus]

Right, but some people never want to let the facts get in the way of a good argument!

As has been pointed out already, the Republic of Georgia is part of the Bush Administration's naked ambition of becoming the controlling force in all of the former Soviet Republics. including the ones in Eastern Europe, Georgia, Ukraine, Azerbaijan, Kazakhstan, Turkmenistan etc. -- encircling Russia with Nato allies armed with missiles, and ofcourse getting oil contracts and pipelines built to bring their oil to Western markets. Looking at the big picture, I don't blame the Russians for trying to project power and control countries that were formerly independent in name only during the Soviet Era.

Very good job of illustrating the viewpoint of a paranoid and backward culture - ie, the Russians. Of course, people who are somewhat more literate, and the product of more civlilized and advanced cultures would just snicker and laugh at such deluded bullshit.

You don't blame the Russians because they have a right to ah, project power? By invading other countries. But you're filled with hysterical hate for the Americans because, apparently, they uh, want to project power by making friends and giving aid to countries.

What a joke.

[bush_cheney2004]

Well, many of us who started school back in the good old days of the Cold War, when we were taught to hide under our wooden desks in case of nuclear attack, would rather not have to breath new life into NATO in the first place! We could still end up with a full-scale nuclear war - that everyone thinks we dodged at the collapse of the Soviet Union - when policies are made by people who act before thinking through the consequences.

Backward thinking...without NATO, the likelyhood of a nuclear war is/would have been much higher.

And here's a good place to start! A little ferreting around, reveals that the Georgian invasion of South Ossetia was encouraged by the Bush Administration, who were either stupider than usual, or deliberately financed Georgia's military buildup, knowing full well that it would be used for the purpose of invading territories that were de facto independent since the fall of the Soviet Union:

That ranks right up there with April Gillaspie giving Saddam permission to invade Kuwait. The Americans have actually given the Russian Federation far more assistance than Georgia, principally in the the way of loans/guarantees in the wake of the ruble's collapse and demilitarization of NBC warheads and weapons systems. By such logic, the Americans also gave Canada permission to bomb Serbia, invade Haiti, and attack Afghanistan.

As it stands now, the U.S. is not going to have the luxury of exercising power in the Caucasus, regardless of what's on the wish list! It's a moot point to begin with! If the U.S. had the upper hand right now, they would have sent military assistance, or threatened military action against the Russians. They haven't because it's not an option; and they never should have encouraged the President of Georgia to believe that he had U.S. backing to forcibly retake the breadaway territories!

It never was an option.

If the pipeline - which is the source of all this intrigue - had been run along the shortest route, it would have run through Russia, and the Russians likely would have been happy with a piece of the action! And, let's not forget, that the problem of securing future sources of oil - that motivated the Bush Admin. to make an aggressive move into former Soviet territories - could have served as a notice to invest the money in developing alternative sources of energy, instead of using the military to try to secure more oil!

Note: there is a reason that the US spends upwards of $450 billion on "the military"....it is not used to dig up tar sands or grow corn.

Edited August 13, 2008 by bush_cheney2004

[Rue]

Time to address some of Bush-Chaney's hero worshipping.

Oh Bushboy you stated;

"Putin was boxed long before that...which way to Iraq ?! "

Absolute and utter nonsense. Putin has never been boxed, limited, curtailed, threatened, disciplined, or put in his place as much as you want to pretend such a thing happened. For eight years he has been ridiculing Bush on the world stafe every chance he gets and all one has to do is follow the progression of foreign policy and economic intiiatives under his reign and note how in each and every negotiation he has had with the U.S. he got what he wanted and exposed Bush for what he was a babbling idiot with no depth or understanding of world affairs and how foreign policy of all nations has intricate strategic imperatives that can conflict and so need understandings to avoid unecessary cross conflict.

Bish's foreign policy reflects his own brain damage and therefore myopic thinking and that of the pathetic Dick Chaney-it has no understanding of any other nation's needs-it sees the U.S. as the centre of the universe able to impose itself at will and that is precisely why it is cripppled and bankrupt. Bush is the idiot whose hands are stuck in tar and he can't move. You should watch that Disney cartoon with Briar Rabbit. Or may I suggest you go back in time and read Pogo comics from the 60's-they were a satire on precisely the politics of the ignorance that gave birth to Bush and your naivite as to how the world works.

Putin is a highly intelligence and ruthless man someone Bush can not understand or ever be able to understand. Its like comparing a person with Down's syndrome to a gifted child. Its cruel.

You stated;

"That would make him a very important moron. Something wrong with this logic......

...and where does most Iranian oil go (not west)."

Two things, your response is not logical at all. You are suggesting because Bush is the US President he can not be a moron because he's important? What kind of logic is that? Do you think he is the first world leader who was an incompetent bumbling bafoon. Why don't you study your own country's history and understand why if you are going to have a moron in office like Bush or Reagan they need to be surrounded by competent people who puppet manage them. Nixon for all his problems had a mind capable of grasping foreign policy and understanding the Kissinger world of chess. Idiot boy Carter had the Polish paranoid Zbignew Bresienski or however you spell that boy's name. Bush fired his Secretary of State and chose instead to put Rice in Powell's place precisely because he ignores traditional US foreign policy and anything his military has ever told him which makes him a prize baboon. Only a baboon would rely on Haliburton whores and the oil indusrtry to dictate his foreign and economic policies as he has done.

You judge a man by the company he keeps. In Bush's case his legacy is not just a permanent crippling debt that will harm every American for centuries to come and limit its strategic power in the rest of the world, but its a legacy of surrounding himself with morons.

You stated;

"Yep...US crosses oceans while Putin crosses the street."

Again this reflects your extreme naivite as to how foreign policy works and how nations interact on world markets. Here's a hint, the fact that someone gets in a plane and travels is not indicative of the influence they have on world affairs although if you think travelling on airplanes means someone is important that would not surprise me. Lord knows what you think driving a Hummer means? Lol. Come on get real.

More importantly even using your ridiculous suggestion as to measuring world influence are you even aware Bush showed the world he is a moron precisely because he never travelled and indicated any awareness of any other nation's culture or politics when on the rare occassion he did travel?

Are you serious? It is the very fact Bush isolated himself from the world and refused to travel that evidenced to the world he was ignorant and a bafoon.

You stated'

"Well, it sure as hell won't be Canada to the rescue!"

Again spoken like a true stereotype ignorant American who thinks the world is saved by the US and Bush and can ridicule countries you think are inferior because they don't have big armies. Listen up-where do you think all your energy is coming from? You know before you open your mouth and suggest the US is so big and bad and has no help from anyone, why don't you make an effort to find out where your hydro-electricity, oil, natural gas and water comes from and who is the primary supplier of it at far cheaper prices then Saudi Arabia or Venezuela and what would happen if Canada wasn't there to provide such things.

Where the hell do you think your US economy would be without an energy cow colony next door to suck dry for its needs?

Maybe what we need to do in Canada is elect some lunatic like Chavez-and instead of sending our energy to the U.S. send it all to China. Hey why not. They own everything else these days. Then let's see how your Bush nation fairs. That arrogance is precisely what got Bush into the mess he is in-this John Wayne go it alone arrogance.

Here is my point and by the way it was echoed verbatum by the former Ambassador to Georgia last night on the Lehrer report keeping in mind the guy was a Clinton appointment so of course you would disagree-US support of Georgia was only token financially and Bush failed miserably as a world leader by time and time again ignoring conflicts between Georgia and Russia years ago when he should have sent in high level government representatives to mediate their disputes so they would not develop to the point they have. All this was preventable had the US acted like a world leader during the last 8 years instead of ignoring the Georgia Russia conflicts.

Georgia has an elected leader who heroworships Bush. In return for that heroworship hasn't gotten Georgia a damn thing. That is the cold cruel reality. If Georgia has obtained anything, its because its people chose to stand up and be counted.

Let's get real. The former Soviet states that have come out from under its tyranny have major economic problems. If they are lucky like Georgia they have natural resources or pipelines that make them strategically important to the West's economy. But get real. Any nation geographically close to Russia knows that Mr. Putin is ruthless and they can not rely on the West to degend them. Many will be looking at the Georgia fiasco and start toning down their previously harsh comments to Russia and that is precisely the point Putin is wanting to achieve-regaining respect through fear and intimidation-pure KGB and the Russian way.

If Putin feels his power base is embarassed or threatened like the head of the Russian Mafia he is, he will do what any gangster does-take someone out and leave their blown up body on display as a message to others not to mess with him.

The West is going to sit there and take it up the ass just as they have with Saudia Arabia and Venezuela, precisely because they can not do a damn thing about it militarily.

The West need Russia's energy resources, pure and simple and Putin knows it. Unlike Bush, Putin will not embarass the West and try put it in its place like Bush tried to do in reverse with Russia these last 8 years thinking Russia was finished and would not fight back to encroaching Western influence.

Russia knows damn well the West is its captive energy client and its not about to bite the people it will make oil addicts to its future foreign policy aspirations but it will strategically humiliate to remind the West of its place.

You seriously underestimate Putin's agenda to become top dog again by controlling the West with energy. He will engage in limited cruel military exercises but no this is not some idiot who will expend and bankrupt his country on wars he can not win simply to show the world how tough he is.

He doesn't need another Afghanistan which is what took Russia down and is taking the West's economy down as well and that is something, precisely something the Bush morons have never understood-that power does not come from military invasions-it comes from being able to control and be competitive in world economic markets and diversify one's economy so 90% of one's industry is not dependent on selling military technology and hardware as is the case with the U.S. and was the case with the old USSR.

Now you talk of Iran selling its oil to China. Duh. Have you any idea that Iran was able to succeed in changing the world currency in which oil is traded? Have you any idea what that means and what its implication has been to the world economy and all nations heavily dependent on oil?

Have you any idea that by selling all its natural has and oil to China and ridiculously cheap prices, it has enabled China to strangle the world economy and cripplethe West with predatory economic practices which like a large out of control cancerous tumour have weaken the world's trade markets (immunity system) creating huge trade deficits and debs owing to China?

Did it ever dawn on you that by fueling China, Iran is taking down the US's economy and it also plays right into Russia's hands meaning the West becomes more dependent on Russian oil that now must come from the Caspian sea and therefore through Afghanistan? Cause and effect. You should try study it.

Duh duh and more duh. Its called strategic positioning. You see some people unlike Bush think one step ahead and realize there is cause and effect out there and the world and power can be achieved and ocntrolled by doing something other then bashing someone and trying to forcefully take their purse.

The days of invading and controlling nations to control their economy are over and yet there is the West in Afghanistan in the alleged name of democracy, propping as undemocratic a regime as there is to protect oil pipelines and pretend its protecting these oil pipelines because it wants Afghanis to be free. Give me a break. If a facist totalitarian regime is willing to protect Western economic interests you won't hear a peep from them and its precisely why so many Western nations won't dare criticize China and allow it to enable the genocide in Sudan to continue.

Today's world is controlled through the inter-net and stock and commodity markets and far more subtle forms of coercion than GI Joe.

The US Army was turned by Bush into nothing more then a cheap source of security guards for oil pipelines and if you think these once proud armed forces appreciate that they have been turned into cheap security guards while there are far more armed soldiers in Iraq in the private Haliburton army getting paid millions to piss people off who then take it out on the army, you are dead wrong.

If it had its way it would be mobile, far smaller in operational unit structire, decentralized, fast moving, and quick hit and run in its tactics and it would go in, take out its foe and then get the f..ck out. It had no interest in being a civilian security guard force. That is Donald Runsfeld's legacy-turning the US Army into a cheap security guard force for Haliburton business interests.

The US army was turned into a sitting lame duck in Iraq and a target for any moron idiot to blow up while it tries to protect Haliburton's contract and oil pipelines.

Only a baboon would think you can protect an oil pipeline by a forced military occupation that alienates the masses and forces them to remain unemployed and have zero financial interest in seeing those oil pipelines be protected.

Good God man have Coca Cola, MacDonald', Nestles, Bayer, Colgate-Palmolive, Bayer, Adidas, Nike, Shell Oil, not taught you a thing about how to control a country's government and people? You don't always have to use missiles and explosives and send the World Wrestling Enterntainment wrestlers to these countries to entertain the troops. There are other more subtle ways then sending John Cena and Triple H to Itaq.

Do you see China using an army to invade and control?

Did you see Japan use an army to invade and control to achieve what it did?

Their strangle hold the world came about precisely because unlike the baboon Bush they know when to smile and bow and act all civilized when they are shoving their hand up someone's buttox.

Edited August 13, 2008 by Rue

[bush_cheney2004]

Time to address some of Bush-Chaney's hero worshipping.

Oh Bushboy you stated;

"Putin was boxed long before that...which way to Iraq ?! "

Absolute and utter nonsense. Putin has never been boxed, limited, curtailed, threatened, disciplined, or put in his place as much as you want to pretend such a thing happened. For eight years he has been ridiculing Bush on the world stafe every chance he gets and all one has to do is follow the progression of foreign policy and economic intiiatives under his reign and note how in each and every negotiation he has had with the U.S. he got what he wanted and exposed Bush for what he was a babbling idiot with no depth or understanding of world affairs and how foreign policy of all nations has intricate strategic imperatives that can conflict and so need understandings to avoid unecessary cross conflict.

Typical crock from you...here is one example of Putin doing anything but:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3753382.stm

Bish's foreign policy reflects his own brain damage and therefore myopic thinking and that of the pathetic Dick Chaney-it has no understanding of any other nation's needs-it sees the U.S. as the centre of the universe able to impose itself at will and that is precisely why it is cripppled and bankrupt. Bush is the idiot whose hands are stuck in tar and he can't move. You should watch that Disney cartoon with Briar Rabbit. Or may I suggest you go back in time and read Pogo comics from the 60's-they were a satire on precisely the politics of the ignorance that gave birth to Bush and your naivite as to how the world works.

Thank you for those wonderful American references...it speaks volumes.

Two things, your response is not logical at all. You are suggesting because Bush is the US President he can not be a moron because he's important? What kind of logic is that? Do you think he is the first world leader who was an incompetent bumbling bafoon. Why don't you....

Ah yes...American presidents do worry the peanut gallery from time to time. Tough shit.

You judge a man by the company he keeps. In Bush's case his legacy is not just a permanent crippling debt that will harm every American for centuries to come and limit its strategic power in the rest of the world, but its a legacy of surrounding himself with morons.

Hey Einstein...check your own "debt".....with nothing to show for it but a gun registry and access to health care waiting lists.

Again this reflects your extreme naivite as to how foreign policy works and how nations interact on world markets. Here's a hint genius, the fact that someone gets in a plane and travels is not indicative of the influence they have on world affairs although if you think travelling on airplanes means someone is important that would not suprise me. You probably still think driving your SUV means you have a big penis too right? Lol. Come on get real.

The post obviously confused you...not surprising since verbosity is your friend (not mine). Go back and rethink what "crossing oceans" means.

More importantly even using your ridiculous suggestion as to measuring world influence are you even aware Bush is a moron and showed the world he is a moron precisely because he never travelled and indicated any awareness of any other nation's culture or politics when on the rare occassion he did travel.

See above...who is the moron? Even so, he is our "moron", not yours. How is PM Harper enjoying Beijing? LOL!

Are you serious. It is the very fact Bush isolated himself from the world and refused to travel that evidenced to the world he was ignorant and a bafoon.

This doesn't even make any sense....are all people who don't travel ignorant bafoons?

Again spoken like a true stereotype ignorant American who thinks the world is saved by the US and Bush. Listen up-where do you think all your energy is coming from? You know before you open your mouth and suggest the US is so big and bad and has no help from anyone, why don't you make an effort to find out where your hydro-electricity, oil, natural gas and water comes from and who is the primary supplier of it at far cheaper prices then Saudi Arabia or Venezuela.

Put a plug in it....why don't you find out where the capital to develop your third tier natural resources economy came/comes from. I say again...Canada won't be rescuing Georgia. Better hope Ukraine isn't next or those leases for Antonovs might be void!

Talk about numb nutz. Where the hell do you think your US economy would be without an energy cow colony next door to suck dry for its needs?

Ummm...it would still be the largest economy on the planet. Gee, I wonder how it got that way?

Maybe what we need to do in Canada is elect some lunatic like Chavez-and instead of sending our energy to the U.S. send it all to China. Hey why not. They own everything else these days. Then let's see how your Bush nation fairs.

Go ahead and spite your face...stupid is as stupid does.

Here is my point and by the way it was echoed verbatum by the former Ambassador to Georgia last night on the Lehrer report keeping in mind the guy was a Clinton appointment so of course you would disagree-US support of Georgia was only token financially.

Thank you for consuming more American media content....we appreciate your support.

Georgia has an elected leader who heroworships Bush. In return for that heroworship it hasn't gotten Georgia a damn thing.

I have done much better than the president of Georgia.

Let's get real. The former Soviet states that have come out from under its tyranny have major economic problems. If they are lucky like Georgia they have natural resources or pipelines that make them strategically important to the West's economy. But get real. Any nation close to Russia that Mr. Putin feels embarasses him or threatens his power base will be crushed and he has made that clear and the West is going to sit there and take it up the ass precisely because they can not do a damn thing about it. They need Russia's energy resources, pure and simple and Putin knows it. Unlike Bush, Putin will not embarass the West and try put it in its place like Bush tried to do in reverse with Russia which I would also say was more unintentional then intentional as Putin over-estimated the US's ignorance as deliberate when a lot of it is probably quite unintentional and a reflection of its current government and the ridiculous idiocy of Condaleeza Rice whose awareness of foreign policy is a joke.

Oh Christ....can we get more "real"? Secretary Rice poops and flushes better ideas than you have ever had. The US can always kiss somebody's ass later.

Russia knows damn well the West is its captive energy client and its not about to bite the people it will make oil addicts to its foreign policy aspirations.

Now we are going in Rue circles. The rest is just more of your typical anti-American ranting even while your references come from the same place. Either way, all you can do is sit in your peanut gallery seat and watch while the big dogs play. Popcorn?

Edited August 13, 2008 by bush_cheney2004

[moderateamericain]

Why is everyone arguing about the politics of the United States when this topic is about Russia and Georgia. As far as I know, barring concrete evidence showing the USA gave the go ahead to the Georgians to take back THEIR territory, the most the US has done so far is fly Georgian troops home from Iraq. Other than that its just been a little talk. Arguing about the percieved "evils" of the US has nothing to do with Russian tanks moving within 30 miles of the capital of Georgia.

[M.Dancer]

Why is everyone arguing about the politics of the United States when this topic is about Russia and Georgia. As far as I know, barring concrete evidence showing the USA gave the go ahead to the Georgians to take back THEIR territory, the most the US has done so far is fly Georgian troops home from Iraq. Other than that its just been a little talk. Arguing about the percieved "evils" of the US has nothing to do with Russian tanks moving within 30 miles of the capital of Georgia.

Give the thread another week and once Georgia is overrun by Russians, the jew zionist world conspiracy will be blamed for the Georgian aggression...

In this world, russian jackboots can do no wrong.

[Argus]

Oh Argus;

In response to your words;

"But he/she's not a Canadian. That's clear."

Uh not its not and even if she isn't she is most certainly entitled to her opinions. Remember its called freedom of speech.

You stated;

"And that's one of my problems with bringing in so many immigrants. Most of them are still fiercly attached to whatever ignorant beliefs and policies their craphole cultures and countries believed in, and I don't think we need to import those types of attitudes, especially in large numbers."

That is a sweeping, subjective negative stereotype

So what? That doesn't mean it's not true.

. You or I have no way of knowing who is what unless they say or do something disloyal to Canada

Pretty much any time you hear immigrants talk about their "old" nation you realize that their "old" nation is first in their hearts and commands their loyalty ahead of Canada.

"Are you suggesting that other powers put Georgia up to trying to grab back their provinces?"

I think the European Union and the US led Georgia on and yes used it to probe Russia to see how Russia would react.

I think I could have predicted how it would have reacted, and I'm pretty sure the US has a lot more knowledgeable folk than I do when it comes to Russian behaviour and intents, so I doubt they US would have encouraged this. It doesn't need the hassle with Russia when it's trying to get Russia to help reign in Iran.

The question now is how far is the European Union willing to go to stand with these nations for their independence?

Its one thing to talk the talk, its another thing when Russia is invading.

Europe has no collective spine. The only guarantor is the US

No one can do a bloody thing and Putin knows it. He has been laughing at the West now for over 8 years. He has sent a clear signal he will do what the f..ck he wants in the part of the world he feels should be his to control and there is not a damn thing the West will do.

Until he steps over a line and goes after something which is actually important to the West.

Putin has given the loudest message to the West yet about how weak we are because of our dependence on oil.

We're not dependant on his oil, nor is the US.

The US is a spent military force unable to respond and bankrupt. So who else does that leave to stand up to Putin?

You're letting your hatred for Bush get in the way of common sense. The US is nowhere near a spent force nor is it anywhere near bankruptcy. US forces, in fact, are stronger than they've been in a generation because not only have they been getting a steady supply of updated equipment (nothing inspires military science to develop better gear than an active war) but their troops are now all combat veterans, and years of active combat have done much to weed out the idiots from their officer corps and bring the more capable leaders to the fore.

Anyone who did not see Putin as a ruthless facist years ago is dreaming. He is quintessential KGB. He is trained to be a lethal soldier. It was only a matter of time and quite frankly I think Putin would have sat quite content to do nothing for another time period had Bush not been such a jack-ass and caused him to lose face in the macho world of posturing by showing what Putin felt was disrespect with missile placement in Czechoslovakia.

I don't have a problem with defensive, anti-missile missiles. And logically, neither should Putin, since he's supposedly an "allie" now. But of course, he's not. But even so, as far as I'm aware the US anti-balistic missile system doesn't work anyway.

This all could have been avoided with some diplomacy 2 years ago.

Nonsense. Putin has the same sort of mentality as Hitler. He'd simply keep pushing and pushing, regardless of diplomacy. He and th rest of the Russians have been really upset at not being considered the great superpower since the SU fell (in fact, they were always an economic pygmy with a strong right arm). And he's determined to assert his country's importance, even on piddling issues that really don't involve anything important to the Russians - like these breakaway Georgian provinces.

[bush_cheney2004]

Why is everyone arguing about the politics of the United States when this topic is about Russia and Georgia. As far as I know, barring concrete evidence showing the USA gave the go ahead to the Georgians to take back THEIR territory, the most the US has done so far is fly Georgian troops home from Iraq. Other than that its just been a little talk. Arguing about the percieved "evils" of the US has nothing to do with Russian tanks moving within 30 miles of the capital of Georgia.

It's April Gillaspie's fault!

Hey, it comes with a superpower's turf.....gotta take the good with the bad. In one post they claim America is irrelevant...in the next post they claim America is calling the shots. Good thing most members here are a bit more balanced than that.

The time to really start worrying is when they STOP talking about the evil US of A.