Carney's announcement to recognize a state of Palestine in September most ill-conceived imaginable.

[Venandi]

20 hours ago, herbie said:

Speaking of lack of understanding, is it incomprehensible to you that your deflection, distraction, gaslighting amd outright BS will get called out for what it is?

I really think going there for an extended period of time is the only thing that provides the level of "understanding" which allows rational discussion.  Nothing is simple there and the absence of a time machine renders historical perspectives moot.

20 hours ago, herbie said:

Some narcissistic megalomaniac tendency that how dare anyone question your inability to respond to the subject at hand. 
 

Cool.... let's turn that around because I'm interested in your solution.

My first tour there was in 1977 with UNEF, I've been back multiple times (including the MFO follow on mission to UNEF) and I've thought about the "what to do" aspect of all this at some length.

Trouble is, a generation of young people have grown up under Hamas and that's  hugely problematic, nothing short of the destruction of Israel is acceptable to many of them now and that wasn't the case in 77. Back then I thought it was fixable, not so sure anymore. 

20 hours ago, herbie said:

...gaslighting amd outright BS will get called out for what it is?

 Music to my desert rat ears Herb, sounds like you have a solution that doesn't require a time machine... I'd love to hear it.

 

Edited August 4, 2025 by Venandi

[CdnFox]

4 hours ago, Barquentine said:

Carneys announcement: Right thing to say, wrong time to say it. But the news cycle has moved on so it won't have any effect on trade deals.

 

It is already had an effect on the trade deal and I will point out that we don't have a trade deal and the new cycle isn't letting that go at all.

Carney is about to start to die the death of a thousand cuts.

He failed to get a deal. And while the media is doing yeoman's work trying to cover for him the reality is that's what he was hired to do and we don't have one. And in fact things could get a lot worse very quickly.

And while we've been resilient so far, our economy is going to start to really feel this. They like to say that 90% of our stuff is covered by the free trade agreement and not subject to tariffs but that's not actually true in the reality, and it's going to hurt a lot of business and before long the economy will start to feel that.

Inter provincial trade is not happening. Aside from a few minor optics announcements nothing has moved forward substantially and it isn't going to.

Enbridge has come out and said what the other companies are already thinking, it's not worth investing in Canada with the current regulatory framework and they're going to put their money in the US. They've been allowed and clear. Carney's weird little magic safe zone legislation instead of canceling the tanker and Anti pipeline bill has failed miserably and blown up in his face.

While there is a temporary breather on housing costs, because he ended certain things without putting Replacements policies in place the developers are pulling their money out of the market and sending it elsewhere. This means the moment he starts bringing in people again which he plans to by the end of the year the pressure is going to start to mount on housing again and this time it will be severe.

Meanwhile the social culture war stuff which people are sick of is starting to heat up again.The photo of him shaking hands with a naked guy is all over the internet and that's actually not going to win him points with a lot of people who find that behavior over the top even if they support gay rights.

And in the backdrop of all of that we've got his announcement with Palestine which incidentally needs to be ratified and worked on in September. So it's not even gone out of the news cycle yet, it's going to boomerang back and be a major thorn for him and it absolutely affected trade negotiations and if he still doesn't have a good deal by then people will be looking at that as one of the factors

 

[Moonlight Graham]

15 hours ago, eyeball said:

I'm an Earthling - we were the first ones here.

Then ignore indigenous land claims?

[Venandi]

4 hours ago, Barquentine said:

Carneys announcement: Right thing to say,

HAMAS loves it...

4 hours ago, Barquentine said:

wrong time to say it.

Right you are, Donnie and the rest of the world not so much.

4 hours ago, Barquentine said:

How long has Netenyahoo (the Strongman) been in power?

How long have people been playing guitars in shelters?

I'm a harmonica guy but there always seems to be a singer in addition to the guitar player. I've met some pretty talented people under concrete umbrellas.,,, must have missed ya.

[eyeball]

1 hour ago, Moonlight Graham said:

Then ignore indigenous land claims?

Interestingly enough my indigenous friends are as uncomfortable as you at the thought of human beings identifying as Earthlings.

[CdnFox]

22 minutes ago, eyeball said:

Interestingly enough my indigenous friends are as uncomfortable as you at the thought of human beings identifying as Earthlings.

They were probably just talking about you  

[eyeball]

21 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

They were probably just talking about you  

The idea of giving up nationhood by people who've been struggling to attain it is clearly a little troubling.

[CdnFox]

1 hour ago, eyeball said:

The idea of giving up nationhood by people who've been struggling to attain it is clearly a little troubling.

If they have been struggling to attain it that suggests that they did not actually attain it and therefore you would have to ask how they would give it up?

None of which actually addressed what you said precisely but I'm just trying to understand where you're going with this now

[WestCanMan]

On 8/3/2025 at 1:11 PM, herbie said:

Speaking of lack of understanding, is it incomprehensible to you that your deflection, distraction, gaslighting amd outright BS will get called out for what it is? Some narcissistic megalomaniac tendency that how dare anyone question your inability to respond to the subject at hand. 
Is it due to seeing politicians do that kind of stuff all the time that you assume it is now the proper and only way to respond?

Why is it that all you can ever do is name-call, herbie? 

You're so dumb that you make a panda bear look look like an evil genius.

[eyeball]

2 hours ago, CdnFox said:

If they have been struggling to attain it that suggests that they did not actually attain it and therefore you would have to ask how they would give it up?

I should have said struggling for recognition instead of attaining.

2 hours ago, CdnFox said:

None of which actually addressed what you said precisely but I'm just trying to understand where you're going with this now

Good old fashioned globalism. Something that I imagine terrifies you. It's actually you who should be able to see where natives might be coming from when thinking about  nationhood...your identity, your label...whatever you call it that's got you in that particular grip.

Human beings may one day leave it behind but no doubt it'll take several generations. There'll probably be a big war over resisting it but who knows, maybe it could happen without a whole lot of fuss because it seems like most the natural thing we could do under whatever circumstances there are at the time.

[Zeitgeist]

I actually think Canada may be on the correct side of this issue.  Israel doesn’t appear to be performing its operations surgically enough or taking enough precautions to protect civilians.  It seems slow to address the humanitarian crisis. 

[Gaétan]

It is useless to argue with individuals who support genocide and they should instead be put in jail

[CdnFox]

3 hours ago, eyeball said:

I should have said struggling for recognition instead of attaining.

Okay but that puts us in the same position. They can't be worried about losing it if they're still struggling to get it

Quote

 

Good old fashioned globalism. Something that I imagine terrifies you. It's actually you who should be able to see where natives might be coming from when thinking about  nationhood...your identity, your label...whatever you call it that's got you in that particular grip.

Human beings may one day leave it behind but no doubt it'll take several generations. There'll probably be a big war over resisting it but who knows, maybe it could happen without a whole lot of fuss because it seems like most the natural thing we could do under whatever circumstances there are at the time.

 

Well that's a pretty long-winded way of saying I'm right and you've recognized that you're wrong, but whatever  

We actually weren't discussing the natives at all or nationhood. So the idea that somehow it terrifies me is a little silly.

Globalism is such a misused word that I would need to know your definition of it for it to have any meaning in a discussion.

As to the rest, it's the end of the long weekend, it's time to stop drinking. You're babbling like a tard again

Anyway, hopefully you'll feel better tomorrow

[eyeball]

2 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

Okay but that puts us in the same position. They can't be worried about losing it if they're still struggling to get it

No it just means your still not willing to acknowledge something they've always had.

4 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

Well that's a pretty long-winded way of saying I'm right

You say that whenever you don't get it but I didn't expect you too.

5 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

Globalism is such a misused word that I would need to know your definition of it for it to have any meaning in a discussion.

I should have just said The Federation - in any case you'll eventually just default to saying I mean commyism.

[CdnFox]

1 hour ago, eyeball said:

No it just means your still not willing to acknowledge something they've always had.

You said they didn't have it that they were constantly working towards it.

You're having trouble keeping up with all your lies again aren't you? I've told you to get a whiteboard. How hard is that?

Quote

You say that whenever you don't get it but I didn't expect you too.

I get it fine. We both know that this is one of your little deflection techniques

 

Quote

I should have just said The Federation - in any case you'll eventually just default to saying I mean commyism.

I think it's fairly clear that nobody knows what you mean including you  

[Barquentine]

17 hours ago, CdnFox said:

we don't have a trade deal

You haven't heard of CUSMA?

It's the trade deal we HAVE, while every one else has HEADLINES which won't come to fruition, as Richard Quest said.

And better no deal than a bad deal.

And time is on our side. 

Edited August 5, 2025 by Barquentine
adding text

[Barquentine]

19 hours ago, I am Groot said:

The barbarity of Hamas

You notice they didn't say "The barbarity of the Palestinian people"? There is a difference.

[Moonbox]

On 8/2/2025 at 3:34 PM, I am Groot said:

I haven't seen any believable signs of children starving either. The only pictures shown turned out to be kids with diseases unrelated to malnutrition.

There is no doubt some of that.  Hamas will, of course, do anything they can to make Israel look as bad as they can.  

When the data/images/stories are coming from American and western doctors, aid agencies etc, it's a bit more credible, would you not agree?

[User]

45 minutes ago, Moonbox said:

When the data/images/stories are coming from American and western doctors, aid agencies etc, it's a bit more credible, would you not agree?

Except... there are no pictures to quantify this. The picture the NYT ran last week was of a kid with underlying medical issues. 

The pictures I seen last year of a poor kid starving was one who couldn't eat, and needed hospitalization support to live... 

Yes, as I said before, this is in fact tragic. When a bomb gets dropped targetting Hamas and an innocent kid is blown up, it is awful. 

The point here is that just as Israel is not just carpet bombing everyone they are not starving everyone either. These incidents of kids starving are awful, but what we are not seeing is that some significant amount of kids are starving like this is in fact going to be 250,000 deaths next week as it is being made to sound. 

 

[eyeball]

9 hours ago, CdnFox said:

You said they didn't have it that they were constantly working towards it.

Then I said something a little more nuanced.

9 hours ago, CdnFox said:

I get it fine.

So why pretend you don't?

[I am Groot]

1 hour ago, Moonbox said:

There is no doubt some of that.  Hamas will, of course, do anything they can to make Israel look as bad as they can.  

When the data/images/stories are coming from American and western doctors, aid agencies etc, it's a bit more credible, would you not agree?

Over the past few years, Western NGOs have undergone a radicalization. For example, there was a time when the American Civil Liberties Union defended Nazis who wanted to march in Chicago. No more. Now they refuse to defend right wing people. The Montreal Pride organization banned Jewish groups from marching. So did the 'Dyke March" in New York. The Ottawa Pride group looked more like a pro Palestine march than anything connected to gay pride. All the gay groups in Canada, the US, and Europe are fanatically pro-Palestine. Why do I bring this up? Because it shows just how absurd the oppressed/oppressor beliefs have become. 

The world NGOs are, if anything, much more aligned with the new 'progressive' views of things, dividing the world into the oppressed and the oppressors. Once one is in the oppressed group, one can do no wrong, and when one is in the oppressor group, no right. All of them have condemned Israel for years. Everyone from Oxfam to doctors without borders have long condemned Israel, though rarely do they say a word against Hamas or any other Arab regimes. 

https://ngo-monitor.org/reports/doctors-without-borders-systematically-ignoring-israeli-victims-and-hamas-terror/

After Oct 7 many of these NGOs not only did not condemn what Hamas had done, but defended them.

https://ngo-monitor.org/reports/immediate-ngo-responses-hamas-pogrom/

So in my mind, these groups are in no way neutral. They are fiercely anti-Israel. And on top of that, of course, if you're in Gaza and criticize Hamas, you won't be in Gaza much longer, or you'll be dead. Mind you, almost all the people working for international NGOs in the Palestinian territories ARE Palestinians.

[I am Groot]

4 hours ago, Barquentine said:

You notice they didn't say "The barbarity of the Palestinian people"? There is a difference.

Germans are fine. It's only the Nazis we hate. Why are we bombing the poor Germans!?

If there were a vote today to elect new governments in Gaza and the West Bank, Hamas would be the most likely to win. They still enjoy broad support.

15 hours ago, Gaétan said:

It is useless to argue with individuals who support genocide and they should instead be put in jail

Haven't you already admitted to being a Nazi and an anti-semite?

[I am Groot]

15 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

I actually think Canada may be on the correct side of this issue.  Israel doesn’t appear to be performing its operations surgically enough or taking enough precautions to protect civilians.  It seems slow to address the humanitarian crisis. 

How do you expect it to address the 'humanitarian crisis'? Let the UN take over again? The UN's own reports show almost 90% of the aid they attempted to deliver never got to its destination.

And how are you judging the term 'surgical operations'? They're not carpet bombing the place like the Allies did in WW2, Korea, and Vietnam. They're not dropping cluster bombs or napalm. They haven't parked hundreds of artillery pieces wheel to wheel like the Russians did when firing into the city of Grozny.  They aren't bombing indiscriminately like the Turks are in Kurdish cities. They're not dragging women and old men out into square to shoot them like the Syrians did to the Druze. They're actually telling people ahead of time about where they intend to operate so civilans can clear out. Of course, Hamas often shoots the civilians trying to clear out because it likes having them as shields, and every death is another accusation against Israel.

[I am Groot]

Terrible starvation! Mass deaths! Enormous crisis! 

But where are the marchers? Where are the angry denunciations from world leaders?

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c776njyl74po

[CdnFox]

4 hours ago, Barquentine said:

You haven't heard of CUSMA?

Are you going to pretend you didn't know what I meant? Are you so embarrassed by your argument you have to resort to that kind of childish nonsense?

Quote

It's the trade deal we HAVE, while every one else has HEADLINES which won't come to fruition, as Richard Quest said.

Tons of other countries have trade deals with America and while that one may be the most extensive it doesn't change the fact that right now we have no deal that covers the tariffs were now facing. And by the way, Cusma is on the table as well. It's due for renegotiation so we don't really actually happen, we just haven't fully lost it yet

Quote

And better no deal than a bad deal.

That's a cute thing to say but it's not actually true. For example if trump let the free trade agreement expire and die and charged us a flat 30% on everything, that would be no deal. That would be far worse than it for example we accepted 15% deal.

Any situation where our economy is going to falter and die is bad, whether it's part of a deal or not.

Quote

And time is on our side. 

Is it? I'm not so sure. 

The premise behind the idea is that if we wait longer we'll get a better deal. However I'm not sure there's any evidence of that. Has trump does deals with other countries and their situation stabilizes on the markets begin to return and have some confidence it becomes less and less important to form a deal with Canada immediately.

The stock market has stabilized in the us and is fairly strong, they've taken a hit from all of this but it seems at this point to be manageable and probably stable. 

The midterms are coming but while trump's popularity isn't great SOMEHOW the dems have managed to do even worse! It's like they've given up for now. They are adrift and they're not much threat to trump at the moment. He COULD lose the house maybe but at this rate he won't be losing the senate and won't have to fear impeachment. Considering he's taken obama's trick of overreaching with executive orders to new heights that's less of a problem. 

So what exactly is the 'driving force' that will make the deal better over time?

We're going to wind up bumping straight into the CUSMA renegotiation. And then they'll have a very real threat to hold over our heads.