Canada is one of few western countries that have a failing totalitarian health care system

[blackbird]

3 minutes ago, eyeball said:

Society decided the principle of universality, which means everyone gets the same treatment, should be what guides our healthcare systems decades ago. The government is simply doing what society wants, not the other way around.

Guess you haven't noticed.  There is no "same treatment" in the health care system.  It is completely haphazard care with millions getting vastly different care than others.  Nothing equitable about it.  That's what your commie mentality got you.  It a lottery type of care.

Government is not doing what society wanted.  Society was led to believe everyone would have good care, but millions are not getting it.  Wake up and smell the coffee.

Edited November 3, 2024 by blackbird

[eyeball]

9 minutes ago, blackbird said:

True in a very limited sense.  It doesn't tell anywhere near the truth.  Some governments are brutal dictatorships, some are democratic to varying degrees.

It'll take a dictator to get all the poor people in the line ahead of you out of your way.

11 minutes ago, blackbird said:

Your statement shows your ignorance about how the world operates.  ....get over it.

And you're the one who says Canada operates as a dictatorship.

[CdnFox]

16 minutes ago, blackbird said:

It has shades of Marxism because in Canada the government controls the health care system and does not allow a true mix of public and private health care with private insurance. 

Marxism is a form of socialism so I suppose virtually all forms of socialism have some things that are similar. But it's not  Marxism.

Communism and Marxism are forms of socialism, but there are also market socialist models where there Is private ownership but the market is extremely tightly controlled by the government And for the purpose of bettering the so-called public interest as they perceive it. Our Healthcare System would definitely fall under that description

[blackbird]

1 minute ago, eyeball said:

It'll take a dictator to get all the poor people in the line ahead of you out of your way.

And you're the one who says Canada operates as a dictatorship.

It does operate as a dictatorship in some ways.  That should be obvious to anyone who thinks.

People cast one vote in four years, but that leaves the winner do basically whatever he wants.  He can choose almost anything and does.  Also the election is often very dishonest with all kinds of lies and fake information broadcast.  The masses of gullible people often vote for dishonest leaders which has been proven repeatedly.  Very democratic.

[eyeball]

15 minutes ago, blackbird said:

The system is supposed to exist for the benefit of patients first.  In Canada the system puts the unions and medical associations first.  Ever thought of that?

No, because it's ridiculous.

Show me where it says the system puts the unions and medical associations first in any of the legislation that governs Canada's health systems.

[blackbird]

4 minutes ago, eyeball said:

No, because it's ridiculous.

Show me where it says the system puts the unions and medical associations first in any of the legislation that governs Canada's health systems.

Of course it is not going to be stated in legislation or stated publicly.  It goes without saying.  For you to ask shows you have no understanding of how the world works.

Did you ever notice the repeated campaign ads run by the Hospital Employees union on television in the recent election.  These ads were often quickly followed by an NDP ad.  Both repeated the same lie that the Conservative would cut the health care funding by 4 billion dollars.  

Obviously the HEU is in bed with the BC NDP.  Doesn't take a genius to see that.

Edited November 3, 2024 by blackbird

[eyeball]

1 minute ago, blackbird said:

It does operate as a dictatorship in some ways.  That should be obvious to anyone who thinks.

I suppose if you're some sort of free-man on-the-land libertarian where EVERY government on Earth is a dictatorship.

[eyeball]

1 minute ago, blackbird said:

Of course it is not going to be stated in legislation or stated publicly.  It goes without saying

You figure they're using telepathy to get around the public? They can run the whole system with nods, winks and knowing smiles?

You people have this persistent habit of saying nonsense without thinking it through. 

6 minutes ago, blackbird said:

Did you ever notice the repeated campaign ads run by the Hospital Employees union on television in the recent election.  These ads were often quickly followed by an NDP ad.  Both repeated the same lie that the Conservative would cut the health care funding by 4 billions dollars.  

Obviously the HEU is in bed with the BC NDP.  Doesn't take a genius to see that.

Da da DAAAAAA!

[eyeball]

9 minutes ago, blackbird said:

Obviously the HEU is in bed with the BC NDP.  Doesn't take a genius to see that.

So...do you suppose a card carrying union member can jump to the head of the line? How about NDP MLA's?

Alberta has a right wing government so surely their healthcare system is better simply by default.

Let's see...

British Columbia and Ontario are the top-rated provinces. Not only do they rank highest within Canada, B.C. places 3rd among all the comparator regions and scores an “A” grade on the overall Health report card, while Ontario finishes with a “B” grade and ranks 7th overall.

...13th-place Alberta....

https://www.conferenceboard.ca/hcp/health-aspx/#:~:text=Generally%2C the four most populous,and below the national average.

 

[eyeball]

39 minutes ago, blackbird said:

Guess you haven't noticed.  There is no "same treatment" in the health care system.  It is completely haphazard care with millions getting vastly different care than others.  Nothing equitable about it.  That's what your commie mentality got you. 

This haphazardness - inequity and unfairness is happening across all sectors, health, housing, food security etc etc, all around the world for the same reason. There are simply too many people and not enough resources to go around.

The waterhole is getting smaller and the animals are getting meaner.

[I am Groot]

5 hours ago, ExFlyer said:

For your information

https://www.coverme.com/health-insurance.html?cid=CA-EN_ML_IS_PS_GOOGLEADS_ALWAYS-ON_COVERMEHD_GEN_text_-_-_B2C_AQCTR_333397344_-&gad_source=1&gclsrc=ds&province=ON&agecode=0

https://www.surehealth.ca/pages/private-health-plans.html?psafe_param=1&gad_source=1

https://www.sunlife.ca/en/health/personal-health-insurance/

https://bluecross.ca/

https://www.allianzcare.com/en/support/health-and-wellness/national-healthcare-systems/healthcare-in-canada.html

 

and mor.e....

And none of them insure you for services covered by government plans. They insure you for eyecare or dental or physiotherapy or prescription drugs. They will not insure you so that if you need an operation on your back, say, you can go to a private surgeon who will perform it. You must still wait a year or two for the government paid surgeon to take care of you.

[eyeball]

1 hour ago, I am Groot said:

They will not insure you so that if you need an operation on your back, say, you can go to a private surgeon who will perform it.

That's because it's against the law.

It's a wonder there isn't an underground healthcare system to service you dedicated queue jumpers.

[blackbird]

5 hours ago, eyeball said:

So...do you suppose a card carrying union member can jump to the head of the line? How about NDP MLA's?

Alberta has a right wing government so surely their healthcare system is better simply by default.

Let's see...

British Columbia and Ontario are the top-rated provinces. Not only do they rank highest within Canada, B.C. places 3rd among all the comparator regions and scores an “A” grade on the overall Health report card, while Ontario finishes with a “B” grade and ranks 7th overall.

...13th-place Alberta....

https://www.conferenceboard.ca/hcp/health-aspx/#:~:text=Generally%2C the four most populous,and below the national average.

 

I wouldn't accept anything the Conference Board of Canada says without knowing something about it.

They don't reveal who supports or funds them.  That should be red flag right there.

 

5 hours ago, eyeball said:

This haphazardness - inequity and unfairness is happening across all sectors, health, housing, food security etc etc, all around the world for the same reason. There are simply too many people and not enough resources to go around.

The waterhole is getting smaller and the animals are getting meaner.

There are reports that some European countries have good systems.

[Moonlight Graham]

23 hours ago, eyeball said:

Americans like to add a weight of morality to many things that is not only unnecessary but costly.

This really spilled over into attitudes that the idea of dentalcare ran afoul of in Canada for so long. Bad teeth after all were the fault of the patient's poor hygiene,bad habits due to their poor moral character.

Dentalcare is just too woke for  conservative sensibilities. Like I've said only a deliberately and honestly left leaning political party could ever make it possible to the extent it is now in Canada.

Hopefully this motivates provinces to phase out their dentalcare programs and direct their funding to their doctor/nurse shortages.

Here's the issue:  if we want universal public-funded healthcare how do we force governments to maintain certain standards of care?  No government ever wants to raise taxes, it's often election suicide.  I'd rather pay higher taxes than have people suffer or risk their health via wait times.  I've read it takes anywhere between 6 months to 2 years to get a psychiatrist appointment in much of Canada.  That's a long time to get a proper diagnosis if you're suffering from mental illness, IMO that's inhumane.

[CdnFox]

48 minutes ago, Moonlight Graham said:

Here's the issue:  if we want universal public-funded healthcare how do we force governments to maintain certain standards of care?  No government ever wants to raise taxes, it's often election suicide.  I'd rather pay higher taxes than have people suffer or risk their health via wait times.  I've read it takes anywhere between 6 months to 2 years to get a psychiatrist appointment in much of Canada.  That's a long time to get a proper diagnosis if you're suffering from mental illness, IMO that's inhumane.

Here's the problem

When the whole idea was proposed they're already was universal health care in each of the provinces. But the ability of these province to afford to maintain Healthcare was very different of course.

So what the federal government proposed was that we have a federal universal health care where half of the money is collected by the federal government in the form of taxes  and then distributed on a per person basis.

That way provinces with a lower tax base and who weren't as wealthy would be able to maintain the same services as a province that was wealthy. It's like a mini equalization program for healthcare.

So the provinces reduced their taxes and the FEDS increase their taxes to collect the money and all was supposed to be well

But then the feds cut funding and kept the money. It eventually got to this worst point under Chretien and Paul Martin, and is dropped again under Trudeau.

So it really doesn't matter if you pay higher taxes. The government can and has just decide to keep your money and not spend it on health care in the form of transfer payments.

Until the day comes where the system is entirely administered federally or entirely administered and funded provincially you're never going to get what you want.

[eyeball]

10 hours ago, Moonlight Graham said:

Here's the issue:  how do we force governments 

Bingo. Figure that out and get back to me. You know my solution.

In the meantime if an x on a ballot is the only means available to us then minority governments and coalitions where greater cooperation can occur seems to work.

It's pretty long dubious hit and miss process but it got us dentalcare.

10 hours ago, Moonlight Graham said:

No government ever wants to raise taxes, it's often election suicide.

I'd rather leave the nuts and bolts of it to a technocracy of experts that largely takes the often complicated issues of management including how to pay for it out of the realm of politics. Not governance...politics. There's a big difference.

10 hours ago, Moonlight Graham said:

I'd rather pay higher taxes than have people suffer or risk their health via wait times.

And you just committed suicide.

 

[ExFlyer]

15 hours ago, I am Groot said:

And none of them insure you for services covered by government plans. They insure you for eyecare or dental or physiotherapy or prescription drugs. They will not insure you so that if you need an operation on your back, say, you can go to a private surgeon who will perform it. You must still wait a year or two for the government paid surgeon to take care of you.

Duhhh, do we have private hospitals??

We do have procedures that can be done privately (in Ontario and Quebec and I do not know of other provinces)

As an aside "As of 2023, Canada has 97,384 physicians, including roughly half that are family doctors. "

You cannot demand a doctor be a family doctor. You cannot force a doctor (or any profession) to work where they don't want to. You (the government , any government) cannot just snap your fingers and make doctors...they need many years and then they decide what they want to do.

Edited November 4, 2024 by ExFlyer

[I am Groot]

36 minutes ago, ExFlyer said:

Duhhh, do we have private hospitals??

We do have procedures that can be done privately (in Ontario and Quebec and I do not know of other provinces)

There are three small private facilities that are grandfathered into being permitted to do operations in specific areas.  One treats hernias, one does addiction. There's also a private surgical center near Toronto but it mostly does OHIP cases. It's allowed to privately treat Workman's Compensation cases, and does some ophthalmological, orthopedic and ENT stuff that may be open to the public for fees. 

Quebec, of course, is special.

Edited November 4, 2024 by I am Groot

[herbie]

2 hours ago, I am Groot said:

. It's allowed to privately treat Workman's Compensation cases

Yep, specializing in denying WCB cases and delivering the least care possible. Insurance company doctors and their like. No, no, you're leg just fell off on it's own. It wasn't the conveyor belt. Here's a handful of oxycodin, goodbye.

[Moonlight Graham]

4 hours ago, eyeball said:

Bingo. Figure that out and get back to me. You know my solution.

I don't know your solution for that.

The problem with the private sector is they're greedy and only care about money.  The problem with governments is they run a monopoly so there's lack of choice, there's corruption, and they're dumb and slow to react.  Either system you're going to have some significant problems.

[Michael Hardner]

10 minutes ago, Moonlight Graham said:

I don't know your solution for that.

The problem with the private sector is they're greedy and only care about money.  The problem with governments is they run a monopoly so there's lack of choice, there's corruption, and they're dumb and slow to react.  Either system you're going to have some significant problems.

In Canada we have a culture of accepting monopoly and oligopoly, and complaining about it incessantly.  Nothing catalyzes improvement like FEAR.  Let the managers and service providers know they're on notice.  Provide Canadians with management tools so they can monitor how things are going in terms of delivery, services times AND costs.

Then fire the managers if nothing improves.  Simple.

Harper actually created an amazing central resource for Canadians to review/discuss healthcare.  I was posting about it on here for many years, on threads where I received the "Canadian shrug" of no response.  

9-1-1 response times in Toronto are over ten minutes, I read.  The only excuse is that people put up with it.

[Army Guy]

7 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

In Canada we have a culture of accepting monopoly and oligopoly, and complaining about it incessantly.  Nothing catalyzes improvement like FEAR.  Let the managers and service providers know they're on notice.  Provide Canadians with management tools so they can monitor how things are going in terms of delivery, services times AND costs.

Then fire the managers if nothing improves.  Simple.

Harper actually created an amazing central resource for Canadians to review/discuss healthcare.  I was posting about it on here for many years, on threads where I received the "Canadian shrug" of no response.  

9-1-1 response times in Toronto are over ten minutes, I read.  The only excuse is that people put up with it.

If your waiting for Canadians to stand up and take a stand you'll be waiting a long time....unless the topic is one that no one can talk about or criticize... LGBTQ community, liquor and beer and maybe Hockey....anything else forget about it....all you get is those blank stares like "hey buds i got better things to do" gotta go feed my cat...

Here in New Brunswick we have had 3 people die in the waiting rooms...nobody blinks, afraid to say anything...except maybe glad it was not me....besides nothing is broken in this country all is good...

[Moonlight Graham]

6 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

In Canada we have a culture of accepting monopoly and oligopoly, and complaining about it incessantly.  Nothing catalyzes improvement like FEAR.  Let the managers and service providers know they're on notice.  Provide Canadians with management tools so they can monitor how things are going in terms of delivery, services times AND costs.

Then fire the managers if nothing improves.  Simple.

Harper actually created an amazing central resource for Canadians to review/discuss healthcare.  I was posting about it on here for many years, on threads where I received the "Canadian shrug" of no response.  

9-1-1 response times in Toronto are over ten minutes, I read.  The only excuse is that people put up with it.

People are definitely lazy.  Canadians are pretty patient and put up with a lot.  Some provinces show wait times for ER's and other stats.

Problem is it can be a funding issue.  And the managers are politicians typically, since they're ultimately responsible.

[blackbird]

On 11/3/2024 at 3:17 PM, eyeball said:

So...do you suppose a card carrying union member can jump to the head of the line? How about NDP MLA's?

That is dumb.  The big unions dominate the public health care system.  That is why they spend a lot of money campaigning for the NDP.  They know if B.C. went to a mixed public private system, a lot of health workers would then be working for private health care and possibly not belong to their union.  Right now they have a monopoly on the health care system and want to keep it that way.  That is why they invest heavily in political campaign ads for the NDP.  The unions are among the NDP's biggest supporters.  That is well known.  The big unions don't do that for nothing.  

[I am Groot]

18 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

9-1-1 response times in Toronto are over ten minutes, I read.  The only excuse is that people put up with it.

And how often do you have "level zero" events where there are NO ambulances available at all?

In Canada's capital that happened 1,672 times last year.