Ukraine Can't Win the War

[User]

1 minute ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

The leaders of Europe are taking it seriously enough to respond to it publicly. Again, why does the US start with so many of Russia’s positions? 

ANY negotiation starts with each side's positions... duh. 

But seriously, is there *any* negotiation you would settle for here other than Russia retreating back to its own borders from before its shadow war in Donbas? What about Crimea?

Just be honest and say you are not interested in any peace, only the defeat of Russia, at any cost. *Just not a cost you are willing to pay for or have any real responsibility for. 

 

[SpankyMcFarland]

11 minutes ago, User said:

ANY negotiation starts with each side's positions... duh. 

But seriously, is there *any* negotiation you would settle for here other than Russia retreating back to its own borders from before its shadow war in Donbas? What about Crimea?

Just be honest and say you are not interested in any peace, only the defeat of Russia, at any cost. *Just not a cost you are willing to pay for or have any real responsibility for. 

 

I am interested in a just peace, not surrender to a tyrant who will inevitably come back for more unless stopped. We are talking about a country that still has a vast nuclear arsenal aimed in our direction led by a man who hates the West and all it stands for. 

[User]

Just now, SpankyMcFarland said:

I am interested in a just peace, not surrender to a tyrant who will inevitably come back for more unless stopped. We are talking about a country that still has a vast nuclear arsenal aimed in our direction led by a man who hates the West and all it stands for. 

Define "just peace"

 

[herbie]

[User]

17 minutes ago, herbie said:

Why isn't Canada over there doing more, while you are crying for them to spend less on their military... 

 

[herbie]

You're the country that that used to be the Defender of Democracy.
Not that you are anymore either at home or abroad.

[User]

35 minutes ago, herbie said:

You're the country that that used to be the Defender of Democracy.
Not that you are anymore either at home or abroad.

How fun to see the phony big tough talking Canadian beg America for its protection while you sit around telling your own government not to fund the military... 

You are the typical leftist freeloader, expecting everyone else to do what you want. 

[eyeball]

On 11/22/2025 at 2:50 PM, User said:

Define "just peace"

Speaking for myself it would be a complete withdrawal of all Russian forces from Ukraine, including Crimea, an official apology, and reparations and compensation.

Even after that I'd still say fùck Putin and Russia and move NATOs front line to Ukraine's eastern borders.

I bet America would be happy to give Russia the financial backing it'll need to meet the above-mentioned conditions. Maybe even a security guarantee.

Trump would get a Nobel for sure.

[SpankyMcFarland]

It’s funny how a war between two countries has a peace deal that focuses mainly on one of those countries, the one that was minding its own business prior to hostilities. Perish the thought that Russia’s army should be limited in the future, for example.
 

 

Edited November 24, 2025 by SpankyMcFarland

[User]

4 minutes ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

It’s funny how a war between two countries has a peace deal that focuses mainly on one of those countries, the one that was minding its own business prior to hostilities. Perish the thought that Russia’s army should be limited in the future, for example.
 

 

What leverage is had against Russia to demand such a thing? 
 

[SpankyMcFarland]

6 minutes ago, User said:

What leverage is had against Russia to demand such a thing? 
 

I make the point to show the oddness of the American proposal. Russia wants a weakened Ukraine. Those with leverage on Ukraine’s side should not be leaving Ukraine vulnerable to further Russian aggression in the future. 

[User]

4 minutes ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

I make the point to show the oddness of the American proposal. Russia wants a weakened Ukraine. Those with leverage on Ukraine’s side should not be leaving Ukraine vulnerable to further Russian aggression in the future. 

It’s not an “American proposal”

This has already been pointed out to you that this was an initial framework that takes into account both sides starting positions. 
 

You avoid the actual point here is that you want to put demands for Russia, but you are incapable of explaining what leverage there is to make such demands. 

Edited November 24, 2025 by User

[SpankyMcFarland]

On 11/21/2025 at 3:27 PM, User said:

It helps if you read the whole thing, and not cherry pick out the parts you want to misrepresent to make your point.

”

Then on Wednesday night, Secretary of State Marco Rubio tweeted that ending the war would require “an extensive exchange of serious and realistic ideas.” Rubio added that the Trump administration would continue “to develop a list of potential ideas” to end the Ukraine war, without saying any final proposal was being floated.

Some Europeans let out a collective sigh of relief.

“Yesterday nerves were up, today nerves are down,” said a diplomat based in Brussels on Thursday, explaining that Rubio’s tweet had appeared to chill the idea that a firm new deal was on the table that the US would be urging Ukraine to accept.”

Actually, I would be happier if Rubio was unequivocally in charge on the American side. There’s been a great deal of confusion about the US proposal and what Rubio has said about it which reflects the incoherence in Washington on this matter. Using career diplomats fluent in Russian and Ukrainian and deeply familiar with the historical context who were explicitly under his direction would have been a better way to negotiate with the Russians. 

https://edition.cnn.com/2025/11/23/politics/us-senators-rounds-rubio-ukraine-peace-plan

In the end, this is not about Trump or Biden or any American. They will never have the final say in a war between two other countries. It’s about what Putin can accept and sell to his people after four disastrous years of entirely unnecessary conflict. Ukraine must have its say too. Naturally, it wants something closer to the European proposal. These two blueprints are a long way apart on crucial issues.  

 

 

 

Edited November 24, 2025 by SpankyMcFarland

[Moonbox]

4 minutes ago, User said:

You avoid the actual point here is that you want to put demands for Russia, but you are incapable of explaining what leverage there is to make such demands. 

The combined economic and military might of NATO backing and supporting Ukraine isn't leverage? LOL! 🤣

This level of cognitive dissonance is astonishing.  After watching you enthusiastically support Ukraine through most of 2024, it's been comedy seeing your convictions evaporate in the face of everything your Orange Messiah does and says. 

[User]

5 minutes ago, Moonbox said:

The combined economic and military might of NATO backing and supporting Ukraine isn't leverage? LOL! 🤣

This level of cognitive dissonance is astonishing.  After watching you enthusiastically support Ukraine through most of 2024, it's been comedy seeing your convictions evaporate in the face of everything your Orange Messiah does and says. 

Of course NATO military can be leverage. 

NATO is a defensive alliance though, Ukraine isn’t a member, and NATO countries certainly are not willing to do this.

So, what is your proposal here? That NATO should threaten war against Russia?

What convictions of mine have evaporated? 
 

Im quite consistent. Yours and others TDS in trying to use anything and frame anything you can negatively to get Trump, and my calling you out for it, doesn’t make Trump my messiah. 

[John Stone]

There never was a better time for China / Korea to act ........... 

[SpankyMcFarland]

I don’t want this war to go on for one more day and take no pleasure whatsoever in Russian casualties. Those hapless young conscripts trying to escape in drone videos could be my relatives. By and large, Europe has made an extraordinary transition in this century, laying aside ancient antagonisms and making them seem inconceivable in the near future. The great exception is Russia. Of the six empires dragged into the Great War it alone endures and behaves in the same way, terrorizing its smaller neighbours. A country that could be applying for EU membership has become a savage zombie state constantly at war. 

There is a more immediate, selfish reason why I want peace. I travel to Europe frequently and see the onerous burden of Ukrainian refugees that Putin has foisted on the continent. I would like to see many of them able to go home. 
 

 

[Moonbox]

1 hour ago, User said:

Of course NATO military can be leverage. 

NATO is a defensive alliance though, Ukraine isn’t a member, and NATO countries certainly are not willing to do this.

So, what is your proposal here? That NATO should threaten war against Russia?

Is that the only option here, in your mind?  Either the US bullies and pressures Ukraine into accepting a tragically bad peace plan, or NATO threatens war with Russia?  I'd suggest there's a grey area in between, including novel concepts like not blackmailing Ukraine with halts to weapon shipments and intelligence sharing, and Trump not regularly handing Putin propaganda victories.

Of course you'll never miss an opportunity to strawman though, will you?  

The reality is that NATO has economies of scale dwarfing Russia's, and a firm and non-equivocal commitment to support Ukraine's defensive efforts and to thwart Russia would probably have been enough. 

1 hour ago, User said:

Im quite consistent. Yours and others TDS in trying to use anything and frame anything you can negatively to get Trump, and my calling you out for it, doesn’t make Trump my messiah. 

The only thing that you're consistent with is your fawning support for that dumb baboon, and the amount of energy you spend rationalizing and defending the stupid things he says.  

You spent most of 2024 emphatically critical of Russia and everything they did and said.  Once Orange Man got elected and he (predictably) started undermining support for Ukraine and parroting Kremlin propaganda, you quickly fell in line and started echoing and defending his bullshit. 

Which part of Trump repeatedly stating that Ukraine started the war, saying that Zelensky is a dictator, fronting Russian wishlists as peace proposals (draft or otherwise), halting weapon shipments and threatening to cut off intelligence sharing do you figure has been helpful to Ukraine, rather than to Russia's benefit?  Which part of that should Ukraine be grateful for?  🙄

[User]

5 minutes ago, Moonbox said:

Of course you'll never miss an opportunity to strawman though, will you?  

This is how this discussion played out:

Spanky wants Russia to have to do stuff, I asked Spanky what leverage is there for that, you jump in and act like I don’t understand that NATO has power to be leverage when it was never mentioned, so I point out the flaws with your suggestion… and now you are like DURRRRRRRR strawman! DURRRRRRRR

7 minutes ago, Moonbox said:

The reality is that NATO has economies of scale dwarfing Russia's, and a firm and non-equivocal commitment to support Ukraine's defensive efforts and to thwart Russia would probably have been enough. 

Sure, NATO *could* extend defensive guarantees to a non member nation… but back to the point, where do you get they are willing to do this?

What does this have to do with the price of tea in China when it comes to what Trump is currently operating with in trying to negotiate a peace deal?

11 minutes ago, Moonbox said:

The only thing that you're consistent with is your fawning support for that dumb baboon, and the amount of energy you spend rationalizing and defending the stupid things he says.  

A lie. I have criticized Trump here and have no problem doing so. 
 

The fact that people like you spend so much time lying about Trump or his policies, and I spend time pointing this out, is not my fawning over him. That is on you.

12 minutes ago, Moonbox said:

You spent most of 2024 emphatically critical of Russia and everything they did and said.  Once Orange Man got elected and he (predictably) started undermining support for Ukraine and parroting Kremlin propaganda, you quickly fell in line and started echoing and defending his bullshit

You can clearly see in this thread I still send plenty of time arguing against the BS people like Nationalist spew.

Why must you make up such obvious BS about me? 
 

 

[Moonbox]

1 hour ago, User said:

This is how this discussion played out:

Spanky wants Russia to have to do stuff, I asked Spanky what leverage is there for that, you jump in and act like I don’t understand that NATO has power to be leverage when it was never mentioned, so I point out the flaws with your suggestion… and now you are like DURRRRRRRR strawman! DURRRRRRRR

No, this is how you need to re-imagine how it played out, because you said a bunch of objectively dumb shit.  

Here's how it really played out:

Spanky sees that the shameful peace proposal the US fronted (and apparently wrote) was a Putin wish-list, and rightly recognized that it demanded much from Ukraine and nothing from Russia.  Your response was another useless smoke-screen demanding to know what leverage anyone had to demand concessions from Russia, which is utterly ridiculous considering you're acknowledging right here that the US and NATO do, in fact, have leverage that could be applied on Russia.  DURRRRRR indeed.  🤣

1 hour ago, User said:

Why must you make up such obvious BS about me? 

Why can't you answer the question I asked?  I'll ask again here, just to make sure you didn't miss it and nobody can accuse you of...running away:

Which part of Trump repeatedly stating that Ukraine started the war, saying that Zelensky is a dictator, fronting Russian wishlists as peace proposals (draft or otherwise), halting weapon shipments and threatening to cut off intelligence sharing do you figure has been helpful to Ukraine, rather than to Russia's benefit?  Which part of that should Ukraine be grateful for?  🙄

[User]

18 hours ago, Moonbox said:

right here that the US and NATO do, in fact, have leverage that could be applied on Russia.  DURRRRRR indeed.  🤣

No, the US/Trump doesn’t have this leverage.

The point was made that it *could* be leverage but NATO certainly doesn’t seem to be willing to do that right now, nor are they.

There can be all sorts of leverage, to the point, what exact leverage is it Spanky thinks can or should be used here.

because if the answer is DURRRRR NATO DURRRRR

No such leverage currently exists or is on the table. 
 

18 hours ago, Moonbox said:

Why can't you answer the question I asked?  I'll ask again here, just to make sure you didn't miss it and nobody can accuse you of...running away:

I love these dishonest games, where you repeatedly lie, then sit here crying about why I won’t engage with your further distractions beyond calling out the lies. 

Also, love how you completely ignored your previous lies being called out and just want to move on instead of having enough decency to just admit you lied. 
 

 

Edited November 25, 2025 by User

[John Stone]

19 hours ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

I don’t want this war to go on for one more day and take no pleasure whatsoever in Russian casualties. Those hapless young conscripts trying to escape in drone videos could be my relatives. By and large, Europe has made an extraordinary transition in this century, laying aside ancient antagonisms and making them seem inconceivable in the near future. The great exception is Russia. Of the six empires dragged into the Great War it alone endures and behaves in the same way, terrorizing its smaller neighbours. A country that could be applying for EU membership has become a savage zombie state constantly at war. 

There is a more immediate, selfish reason why I want peace. I travel to Europe frequently and see the onerous burden of Ukrainian refugees that Putin has foisted on the continent. I would like to see many of them able to go home. 
 

 

Wishing isn't a strategy ............

[SpankyMcFarland]

2 hours ago, John Stone said:

Wishing isn't a strategy ............

Understanding Russia is. Putin despises rule of law countries and sees treaties as temporary instruments that can be violated when convenient. Any agreement must have cast iron guarantees to assist Ukraine if, more likely when, Russia attacks them again. Ideally, false flag operations should be mentioned in the text because they are quite likely to be used by the Russian side as a pretext for more war. 

[John Stone]

23 minutes ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

Understanding Russia is. Putin despises rule of law countries and sees treaties as temporary instruments that can be violated when convenient. Any agreement must have cast iron guarantees to assist Ukraine if, more likely when, Russia attacks them again. Ideally, false flag operations should be mentioned in the text because they are quite likely to be used by the Russian side as a pretext for more war. 

Re: Understanding Russia is. 

I'd argue understanding Putin is more crucial. Contrary to popular belief, Putin is not a communist - I'm sure he'd laugh at anyone describing him as such. Putin is an autocrat - a thug - leading / controlling a pack of oligarchs that have robbed a pillaged the national treasury. Arguably Putin is the richest man in the world - by far. But his control is tenuous and hazardous. 

Good reads:

The Man Without a Face: The Unlikely Rise of Vladimir Putin / Masha Gessen

Red Notice / Bill Browder

Freezing Order / Bill Browder

 

 

23 minutes ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

Understanding Russia is. Putin despises rule of law countries and sees treaties as temporary instruments that can be violated when convenient. Any agreement must have cast iron guarantees to assist Ukraine if, more likely when, Russia attacks them again. Ideally, false flag operations should be mentioned in the text because they are quite likely to be used by the Russian side as a pretext for more war. 

 

[Goddess]

In the most recent Ukraine war scandal $100 million vanished through the washing machine, and now Zelenskyy is seeking full immunity to avoid prosecution.

Canada sent over $20 billion.