Ukraine Can't Win the War

[Moonbox]

4 hours ago, Army Guy said:

I've gone back through all my posts that have sources attached, and i'm sorry i can not find where my conclusions have gone sideways from my sources...perhaps you can provide an examples so i can see where i'm or you are going wrong.

The whole point of a debate is to read what the other person is saying, and respond to that.  You're not doing that.  You're just full-quoting me and repeating yourself, without even acknowledging my arguments about your (IMO) poor reasoning.  

As as an example of your bad conclusions, just refer to anything regarding these maps and the near-zero progress the Russians are making.  

4 hours ago, Army Guy said:

below is an updated map that shows Russian gains in the last 24 hours, marked with pink with doted border, , yellow areas are gains but unconfirmed, if you don't want to use this map source i'll find another. Until then the cities i pick are Around the bakhmut area, Chasir yar,lysychansk area, and Donetsk area...these are the areas Russia is currently concentrating on....

You're definitely not reading these right.  Here's an example of "recent gains" in the last 24 hours.  They barely ever show up on these maps, because they're hard to confirm in that short a time span. 

As for Chasiv Yar, the place where Russia is concentrating hardest, here is the ACTUAL progress Russia is making, according to YOUR SOURCE.  

In 65 days, the Russians have moved forward 2.7km.  That's 41m a day, and this is where Russia is advancing the fastest, and concentrating the hardest.   Sad Vlad is throwing away 1000+ of his worthless donkey soldiers daily, so the Russian army can advance the distance I walk to go have a beer across the street on my neighbor's porch. 

At this pace, it will be two years before Russia reaches Kramatorsk, the closest city of any importance, and they'll lose over 600,000 more soldiers (4x the population of Kramatorsk itself).  "Advancing is advancing" is utter bullshit, and I think you know that. 

I've said it multiple times before, and you've ignored it over and over, but Russia runs out of manpower and equipment long before Ukraine runs out of land at this rate - and this is with US aid delays.  

Edited July 9 by Moonbox

[Perspektiv]

6 hours ago, DUI_Offender said:

Today Russia deliberately attacked a Children's Hospital in Kyiv.

A Children's Hospital.

They have also kidnapped thousands of kids. Bombed civilian infrastructure. 

Killed and raped women.

You're essentially proving my point. Continuing this war hurts Ukraine just as much if not more than it hurts Russia.

Russia will stop at nothing to apply pressure on Ukraine. Bombing electricity stations during the coldest months. Putting civilians at risk of freezing to death.

Not sure if you're trying to be shocking, considering the world over knows the brutality with which Russia operates with.

So continuing this stalemate is making who pay, exactly? 

Making who win?

What you've described doesn't sound like Ukraine winning. 

6 hours ago, DUI_Offender said:

if Ukraine surrenders

Its not surrendering. Its stopping the war. You can use histrionics and plays on words, but even Zelensky knows this war can't go on for much longer.

6 hours ago, DUI_Offender said:

very difficult to argue that the Russians will not exact a terrible revenge of the Ukrainian population.

Your solution is refusing to negotiate, and continuing those very hostilities.

6 hours ago, DUI_Offender said:

Please stop with your bullshit about "Russian blood spilled." It's intellectually dishonest, and cowardly.

When you have nothing to bring to the argument, attack the character of the poster. Check.

Ironically enough, speaks more about you than it does me.

[DUI_Offender]

1 hour ago, Perspektiv said:

They have also kidnapped thousands of kids. Bombed civilian infrastructure. 

Killed and raped women.

So let's just go with your idea, and have Ukraine surrender.  Since surely the Russians won't commit a slew of war crimes,  up to,  and including genocide against Ukrainian civilians in the aftermath.

*facepalm*

Edited July 9 by DUI_Offender

[Perspektiv]

50 minutes ago, DUI_Offender said:

Since surely the Russians won't commit a slew of war crimes,  up to,  and including genocide against Ukrainian civilians in the aftermath.

Any negotiations must include immediate protections for Ukraine.

Nobody is trusting Russia in any of this. Well, anyone not named Trump.

Anything short of an immediate joining of NATO, could only be seen as stall tactics by Russia. They have shredded agreements before, so an agreement that helps Ukraine must be immediate and binding, regarding Ukraine security.

Their goal from the start, was all of Ukraine. They have failed, and pivoted. 15 to 20% of Ukraine and turning them to a neutered state would also be a win, allowing for further attacks. This bullying will never stop, until they gobble Ukraine whole.

They are prepared for a very long war and to take heavy losses, regardless of whether this is what they wanted. Russia doesn't value life. The west does. Their gravest weakness when fighting someone like this.

They know the west will eventually tire, and are betting all they have on that very scenario. They aren't wrong. Their attacking civilians obviously shows desperation, but that very desperation is nonetheless applying far more pressure on Ukraine, when looking at its plummeting approval regarding the initial unwavering and uncompromising stance on a potential resolution.

Russia doesn't respect agreements, laws. Standards, even.

Choosing to fight this out for 5 or more years, puts Ukraine at risk of losing support by the western public voting in more "us first" leadership that are far more self serving. This applies far more pressure on Ukraine to accept a deal. That, along with less support on a hard line, and people fatigued and wanting the war to stop.

Right now, Ukraine is holding very strong and has high backing by western allies. This can change in months. Hold as long as you wish with the support. Reality does exist, which is the point am making. That support will wane.

Ukraine winning is just not feasible. Ukraine will be wisest to negotiate with as strong a hand as possible.

Like I said. War is chess, not checkers. Your emotions mean little.

The reality is Russia has the upper hand, and like you said. Ukraine is in survival mode.

Sometimes to ensure survival, one must make sacrifices. 

What am saying is the pressure to sacrifice is minimal for Ukraine. It will be deafening by 2026. 2025, even. Book it.

[User]

9 hours ago, athos said:

You cannot understand and solve the equation if one variable is missing and that is USA. For the USA, the war in Ukraine is strategic, and for Russia, it is a question of survival. Your view of that war is ideological, while mine is rational and practical, including a proposal to achieve peace:

There is nothing rational or practical with your absurd claim that invading Ukraine was a matter of survival for Russia. 

It is Ukraine fighting for their survival right now. 

[Nationalist]

16 hours ago, DUI_Offender said:

Oh for Chirst sakes...

Ukraine has lost the equivalent of land that would make up `1% of the "gigantic" state of New Jersey. In other words, a completely insignificant gain by what was supposedly the World's second most powerful military. Unless you consider the outhouse at Yuri's farm, a major military victory.

Douglas MacGregor and Scott Ritter don't count. One is a drug addict, and the other is a child-luring paedophile. You need to find a better source than the "Scott and Dougie Clown Show."

Lol...a drug addict...lol.

What dirt rag did you get that BS from?

9 hours ago, Moonbox said:

The whole point of a debate is to read what the other person is saying, and respond to that.  You're not doing that.  You're just full-quoting me and repeating yourself, without even acknowledging my arguments about your (IMO) poor reasoning.  

As as an example of your bad conclusions, just refer to anything regarding these maps and the near-zero progress the Russians are making.  

You're definitely not reading these right.  Here's an example of "recent gains" in the last 24 hours.  They barely ever show up on these maps, because they're hard to confirm in that short a time span. 

As for Chasiv Yar, the place where Russia is concentrating hardest, here is the ACTUAL progress Russia is making, according to YOUR SOURCE.  

In 65 days, the Russians have moved forward 2.7km.  That's 41m a day, and this is where Russia is advancing the fastest, and concentrating the hardest.   Sad Vlad is throwing away 1000+ of his worthless donkey soldiers daily, so the Russian army can advance the distance I walk to go have a beer across the street on my neighbor's porch. 

At this pace, it will be two years before Russia reaches Kramatorsk, the closest city of any importance, and they'll lose over 600,000 more soldiers (4x the population of Kramatorsk itself).  "Advancing is advancing" is utter bullshit, and I think you know that. 

I've said it multiple times before, and you've ignored it over and over, but Russia runs out of manpower and equipment long before Ukraine runs out of land at this rate - and this is with US aid delays.  

Lol...

[DUI_Offender]

4 hours ago, Perspektiv said:

Any negotiations must include immediate protections for Ukraine.

Nobody is trusting Russia in any of this. Well, anyone not named Trump.

Anything short of an immediate joining of NATO, could only be seen as stall tactics by Russia. They have shredded agreements before, so an agreement that helps Ukraine must be immediate and binding, regarding Ukraine security.

 

This is a pipe dream. Russia is never going to agree to let Ukraine join NATO, or honor any agreement that protects Ukraine from future Russian aggression. 

Edited July 9 by DUI_Offender

[Perspektiv]

4 hours ago, DUI_Offender said:

This is a pipe dream.

Then NATO will have to provide weapons to Ukraine indefinitely, and see how long they are willing to do so. 

I am just not confident someone like Trump winning would be wanting to pursue this. More "us first" leadership that is sweeping Europe.

I would be okay with indefinitely supporting Ukraine, if that support was signed long term, and wasn't  heavily bogged down in politics. Blaming this party or that party won't change that. Division and cracks in the armor, is what Russia wants.

Right now, its at times slow, there are so many constraints and this is having devastating effects on the morale of Ukraine soldiers.

Sign a deal where a certain amount of your spending budget is allocated to this. Show no hesitation and no wavering in your commitment in action. Not only in words. 

This is chess. No kinks in the armor. Zero doubts Ukraine will have full support as long as it takes needs to be the message shown.

What I see now, is a Ukraine not confident in their allies, and heavily rationing attacks as a result as they are not confident in their tools.

I also see a western ally wanting to see gains, but inconsistently providing weapons. Catch 22.

Russia isn't present at recent talks. China didn't back these talks up, as a result.

Long term, this favors Russia.

[DUI_Offender]

16 minutes ago, Perspektiv said:

Then NATO will have to provide weapons to Ukraine indefinitely, and see how long they are willing to do so. 

..or Russians tire of the war, and the hundreds of thousands of Russian casualties. 

16 minutes ago, Perspektiv said:

I would be okay with indefinitely supporting Ukraine, if that support was signed long term, and wasn't  heavily bogged down in politics. Blaming this party or that party won't change that. Division and cracks in the armor, is what Russia wants.

 

Yesterday, you insinuated that supporting Ukraine was the position of the "left"...lol.

I've also noticed that you exclusively talk about Ukranian morale, casualties,  etc like they should throw in the towel. Do you not realize that the casualties ratio favors Ukraine by 2:1, and the Russian morale is at an all time low.

And please don't tell us "Russians don't care, and will literally fight to the last man. Wars in Afghanistan and Poland in the 20th century have proven that theory false.

Edited July 9 by DUI_Offender

[Army Guy]

16 hours ago, Moonbox said:

The whole point of a debate is to read what the other person is saying, and respond to that.  You're not doing that.  You're just full-quoting me and repeating yourself, without even acknowledging my arguments about your (IMO) poor reasoning.  

As as an example of your bad conclusions, just refer to anything regarding these maps and the near-zero progress the Russians are making.  

You're definitely not reading these right.  Here's an example of "recent gains" in the last 24 hours.  They barely ever show up on these maps, because they're hard to confirm in that short a time span. 

As for Chasiv Yar, the place where Russia is concentrating hardest, here is the ACTUAL progress Russia is making, according to YOUR SOURCE.  

In 65 days, the Russians have moved forward 2.7km.  That's 41m a day, and this is where Russia is advancing the fastest, and concentrating the hardest.   Sad Vlad is throwing away 1000+ of his worthless donkey soldiers daily, so the Russian army can advance the distance I walk to go have a beer across the street on my neighbor's porch. 

At this pace, it will be two years before Russia reaches Kramatorsk, the closest city of any importance, and they'll lose over 600,000 more soldiers (4x the population of Kramatorsk itself).  "Advancing is advancing" is utter bullshit, and I think you know that. 

I've said it multiple times before, and you've ignored it over and over, but Russia runs out of manpower and equipment long before Ukraine runs out of land at this rate - and this is with US aid delays.  

I don't think my reasoning is poor, nor my are my conclusions. You've picked a region on the map that shows very little progress, without context of here and when this location is there is nothing to compare it to...i could do the same to make my point...

As for the other location of Chasiv Yar, this to is a little misleading as this is a recent push by Russian forces, they've been concentrating on other battle fields todate... this area is seeing intense fighting but that has not always been the way...so you time frame may be of 65 days may be skewed...

Fighting in the bakhmut area has said to claim a 100,000 Russian soldiers...Did that battle give pause to russia forces? have they changed tactics? Do you think they know that these gains are expensive ? Russia is not all that concern about their losses in Ukraine it is not in their media, nor do you see any protests about the subject, and yet you guys keep bringing it up like it matters.......In my opinion i don't think the Russian chain of command gives a rats A$$....unless you have a source that explains the continuous meat assaults against ukrainian positions...I've said this a million times Russian don't measure success by causality reports they measure success in ground taken...that much is clear or they would have adopted other approaches to the battle . 

The Russian military chain of command has made those calculations on what it is going to cost to gain more territory,and when they meet that line in the sand i'm sure they will be ready to discuss that amongst themselves...but it looks like today those numbers are acceptable...

That being said I'm 100 % positive that Ukraine can not compete with Russia on resources or manpower long term ...and the present NATO support is barely keeping their head above water...every day Russia is making gains, it does not matter if they are measured in 45 meters a day...Ukraine will not be able to continue this level of fighting forever...and once that happens Russian forces will gain more momentum...UNLESS NATO steps up..

Everyday Ukraine is losing resources faster than they are being supplied...NATO's failure to ensure that this minimum is maintained is telling, more support seems to be on the way but in Ukraines words to slow and not what they have been screaming for... War is expensive and sooner or later NATO is going to tap out...NATO has already spent close to 280 BIL us dollars on aid...and we are no closer to pushing the russian out, in fact they are losing ground everyday...

 

[Army Guy]

2 hours ago, DUI_Offender said:

I've also noticed that you exclusively talk about Ukranian morale, casualties,  etc like they should throw in the towel. Do you not realize that the casualties ratio favors Ukraine by 2:1, and the Russian morale is at an all time low.

And please don't tell us "Russians don't care, and will literally fight to the last man. Wars in Afghanistan and Poland in the 20th century have proven that theory false.

DO you realize that the Russia army is 2 to 3 times larger than Ukraines...with a much greater population base to draw from...Do you think Putin gives a shit what moral is like...as his generals continue to use meat assualts against Ukraine...

The fact you think Russians care about their soldiers  is telling...I mean throwing wave after wave 10 to 15 times daily day after day...against the same Ukrainian position tells you what exactly, he loves his country men....Russia will continue to throw men and machines into this conflict until Putin says it is enough..and he's not there yet...

[Moonbox]

1 hour ago, Army Guy said:

I don't think my reasoning is poor, nor my are my conclusions.

I suppose it's easy for you to feel that way when you just ignore and blow past any criticism of your reasoning, without even acknowledging it. Evidently, that's also what you seem to do when confronted with facts that contradict your chosen narrative.  See below:

1 hour ago, Army Guy said:

You've picked a region on the map that shows very little progress, without context of here and when this location is there is nothing to compare it to...i could do the same to make my point...

YOU picked that place on the map, and it's ironically the place where the Russians are making the most progress.  Anywhere else, and the "gains" are even more underwhelming. 

You cannot do the same to make your point, because what you're claiming is not real.  

Now, instead of rambling off another useless 5 paragraph essay, nut up  and show us a place where the Russians are advancing kilometers per day, as you've claimed.  

Alternatively, you can save yourself some time and acknowledge that your misinformed on that.  

Edited July 9 by Moonbox

[Aristides]

Previous agreements provide included protections for Ukraine. Russia will ignore them as well.

A dictator's paranoia has no limits.

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cg3mjzyp40go

[Perspektiv]

5 hours ago, DUI_Offender said:

Russians tire of the war

Russia is still business as usual with countries like India, China and countries in the BRICS alliance. 

Not sure where you get the impression they will tire. Death tolls?

This is a country where dissenters were literally tortured and/or killed on the battlefield. 

Tens of thousands of people were thrown literally to their deaths, just to hold off Ukraine until spring.

Russia will gladly throw bodies this as long as it takes.

The more desperate they become, the more dangerous they will be. Not more docile. 

I just don't see in what world Russia throws in the towel, with the overwhelming advantage that they have militarily on Ukraine.

5 hours ago, DUI_Offender said:

Yesterday, you insinuated that supporting Ukraine was the position of the "left".

Nothing wrong with supporting them. Something wrong with supporting them without an end game, considering the stalemate that they have. 

This is only buying them time. There is no way they win on the battlefield.

5 hours ago, DUI_Offender said:

like they should throw in the towel

Nope, echoing their own leaders flustered, and documented high ranking officials speaking on the low morale.

When your morale is that low, you can't expect these people to win on the battlefield.

5 hours ago, DUI_Offender said:

Do you not realize that the casualties ratio favors Ukraine by 2:1

Nobody knows for sure the exact casualty count.

People will always make their own numbers sound better.

Also that casualty count does little when you consider the overall sizes of the armies of each country.

5 hours ago, DUI_Offender said:

Russian morale is at an all time low.

Dissent can get you killed. A lot easier to fight when you know the potential consequences in failing to do so.

Ukraine showcases the true consequences of that low morale, plus the freedoms they enjoy.

5 hours ago, DUI_Offender said:

And please don't tell us "Russians don't care

They do care. I am saying their military is superior in size, and ability.

 

[DUI_Offender]

1 hour ago, Perspektiv said:

 

Not sure where you get the impression they will tire. Death tolls?

Death tolls:

500,000 Russian casualties of war, according to Newsweek as of May 31, 2024.

IIRC, 1 in 3.5 Casaulties of War are fatalities, so this would mean Russia has lost nearly 150,000 people as of June 1. 

Ukrainian losses are estimated to be between 75,000-100,000 soldiers/civilians.  Unfortunately, the exact number of Ukraine casualties is hard to determine, since some sources put out estimated Ukraine military deaths, while others include civilian deaths.  It was estimated in February 2024, that over 31,000 Ukrainian civilians have been killed. 

The number of casualties of war is rising dramatically in 2024, considering Russia and Ukraine have exhausted nearly all of it's soldiers with fighting experience (most have been killed), and is relaying on new or inexperienced personnel to fight the war.

 

1 hour ago, Perspektiv said:

This is a country where dissenters were literally tortured and/or killed on the battlefield. 

How is that any different than most countries? This is been Standard Operating Procedure for centuries. Until Vietnam, the US used to execute soldiers for cowardice.

 

1 hour ago, Perspektiv said:

 

Russia will gladly throw bodies this as long as it takes.

The more desperate they become, the more dangerous they will be. Not more docile. 

This is complete bullshit. Even when the Nazis (who ere the most vicious and evil regime in World history) got desperate, they did not change their tactics much.  The Russians have raped and murdered hundreds of women and children, tortured and executed hundreds of Ukrainians soldiers, and kidnapped an estimate 10,000 children, and are targeting Ukraine's infrastructure (hospitals, nuclear plants, etc).  What more could they possibly do?

1 hour ago, Perspektiv said:

I just don't see in what world Russia throws in the towel, with the overwhelming advantage that they have militarily on Ukraine.

The Russians threw in the towel against Poland after World War I, as Poland ended up annexing a significant amount of Russian land. Russia threw in the towel against Afghanistan, a much weaker nation, after 10 years of occupation. The Russian even threw in the towel against a tiny breakaway republic of Chechnya, until the second Chechnyan war a few years later. 

1 hour ago, Perspektiv said:

Nothing wrong with supporting them. Something wrong with supporting them without an end game, considering the stalemate that they have. 

So what you are saying, is you will stop supporting Russia, since they may ahve no end game, if they cannot annex Ukraine?

1 hour ago, Perspektiv said:

 

Nope, echoing their own leaders flustered, and documented high ranking officials speaking on the low morale.

When your morale is that low, you can't expect these people to win on the battlefield.

That is the situation with the Russian military, and explains why they have been fighting a war for over 28 months, that was supposed to be done in 72 hours. 

1 hour ago, Perspektiv said:

Nobody knows for sure the exact casualty count.

People will always make their own numbers sound better.

It depends on the source. It's best to dispel any Russian or Ukrainian figures, since obviously they are going to inflate the casualty rate of the enemy, or downplay the causality rate of their own army for propaganda purposes.  However, the New York Times, Washington Post, BBC, CBC, and other reputable news agencies are not far off from the actual number. 

1 hour ago, Perspektiv said:

 

Dissent can get you killed. A lot easier to fight when you know the potential consequences in failing to do so.

Nearly every psychological study regarding war, says this is not the case. The United States, Western Europe, and Australia ahve some of the most competent soldiers in the World.  If anything, knwing that one can be murdered by their own army for failing to follow instructions almost always has a negative effect on morale, and military performance.

It's the same in any aspect of life (i.e workplaces, etc). Companies are more productive when they reward their employees for good performance, rather than threatening them with termination if they do not meet their quota.

1 hour ago, Perspektiv said:

Ukraine Russia showcases the true consequences of that low morale.

FYP

Edited July 10 by DUI_Offender

[DUI_Offender]

3 hours ago, Moonbox said:

I suppose it's easy for you to feel that way when you just ignore and blow past any criticism of your reasoning, without even acknowledging it. Evidently, that's also what you seem to do when confronted with facts that contradict your chosen narrative.  See below:

YOU picked that place on the map, and it's ironically the place where the Russians are making the most progress.  Anywhere else, and the "gains" are even more underwhelming. 

You cannot do the same to make your point, because what you're claiming is not real.  

Now, instead of rambling off another useless 5 paragraph essay, nut up  and show us a place where the Russians are advancing kilometers per day, as you've claimed.  

Alternatively, you can save yourself some time and acknowledge that your misinformed on that.  

Post of the week nomination.

[Aristides]

Quote

How is that any different than most developing countries? This is been Standard Operating Procedure for centuries. Until Vietnam, the US used to execute soldiers for cowardice.

Only one US soldier was executed for cowardice or desertion in WW2 and he was the last. Others have been executed for capital crimes that also carried the death sentence for civilians.

Edited July 10 by Aristides

[DUI_Offender]

9 minutes ago, Aristides said:

Only one US soldier was executed for cowardice or desertion in WW2 and he was the last. Others have been executed for capital crimes that also carried the death sentence for civilians.

Thanks for verifying what I had said. As far as I know, most US soldiers who deserted during the World Wars, and were condemned to execution had their sentences ultimately reduced to jail time. There was a famous case of Edward Slovak, who was the only soldier who did not have his sentence overturned, as they wanted to make an example of him, during a an American offensive in France that ha a very high casualty rate.

306 British soldiers were executed for cowardice/desertion in the First World War. 25 Canadian soldiers were executed for desertion/cowardice in WW1.

[athos]

On 7/9/2024 at 1:19 PM, DUI_Offender said:

Today Russia deliberately attacked a Children's Hospital in Kyiv.

A Children's Hospital.

The Ukrainians are literally fighting for their lives, and it's obvious to us that are not brainwashed by Russian propaganda. that if Ukraine surrenders, as you would like them to,  it's becoming very difficult to argue that the Russians will not exact a terrible revenge of the Ukrainian population.

Please stop with your bullshit about "Russian blood spilled." It's intellectually dishonest, and cowardly.

Another fake news. The hospital was actually hit by a Ukrainian anti-aircraft missile. Zelensky was quick to ask fore more money , Ukraine lies so much they don't even know the truth.

Do you remember when Assad in Syria won the war, few weeks later there's was chemical attack on small village. The hospital is a casualty but USA and Israel removed more hospitals in Gaza Iraq, or Lybia. Not to mention Yugoslavia. Truth is that this welcome coincidence that for lat 2 years Russia has not been attacking children hospitals but just right before NATO summit and Poland promising to join "defense" this happened. I live in Poland, we will pay the price for the USA game.

 

 

 

Edited July 10 by athos

[Perspektiv]

8 hours ago, DUI_Offender said:

this would mean Russia has lost nearly 150,000 people as of June 1. 

Again, when looking at the volume of persons lost, this has hurt Russia, but they could sustain such losses for 2 to 3 years per some experts, before them folding would essentially be their only option.

Ukraine could not sustain such catastrophic losses for that long.

Additionally, they don't have the manpower and consistent weaponry to sustain that level of pressure on Russia. 

You need to be insanely confident in your suppliers to put forth such an effort. Ukraine is not.

8 hours ago, DUI_Offender said:

Until Vietnam, the US used to execute soldiers for cowardice.

Russia has low morale, but highly motivated troops. Or at least, have shown more motivation than their enemy, in the more recent months.

8 hours ago, DUI_Offender said:

What more could they possibly do?

They can amplify the pressure, if they sensed imminent victory. They aren't moving full throttle currently.

8 hours ago, DUI_Offender said:

The Russians threw in the towel

I just don't see it in this conflict, but would be happy to be wrong on it.

8 hours ago, DUI_Offender said:

So what you are saying

I don't support war, period. I support Ukraine's right to defend themselves, but sooner or later they will get to a point where the west will tire of heavily finding a stalemate for years.

In the long game, the odds favor Russia.

8 hours ago, DUI_Offender said:

It depends on the source.

Sorry, but I don't trust any source for accurate death tolls. These are guesstimates at best.

Unless those agencies are on the field, they are no different. I see it like predicting weather a month or two from now. 

Propaganda PR, to make one look worse or superior than the other. If your media is pro Ukraine, the numbers will always make Russia look like they are losing. Pro America, and things may look more grim for UKraine.

Once the dust settles, I believe is where you will start to see more "real" numbers, once mass graves are uncovered and things actually tallied.

8 hours ago, DUI_Offender said:

Companies are more productive when they reward their employees for good performance

Managers that are bullies typically get the best performance out of their staff, but also the highest turnover rates.

You've clearly never worked at a factory, if you feel playing nice is how you get people to work and follow orders.

If your military is soft, you have a valid point. This is Russia.

[Nationalist]

On 2/27/2024 at 11:52 AM, Moonbox said:

I didn't say either, so I guess the better question is what game are you playing at? 

Sure you have. On numerous occasions. But lying is not new to you...is it.

[DUI_Offender]

2 hours ago, Perspektiv said:

 

Managers that are bullies typically get the best performance out of their staff, but also the highest turnover rates.

You've clearly never worked at a factory, if you feel playing nice is how you get people to work and follow orders.

Ok now you are just trolling. A high turnover rate nearly always means that the best and most productive employees leave for better jobs. Who do you think does a better job- an employee with 20 years experience or 5 months experience?

And yes, I worked years in a manufacturing plant. I did a 4 year degree in Occupational Health and Safety, and a significant part of our course was workplace psychology. You are clearly lying, and I no longer will be dignifying your posts with a response until you smarten up.

Edited July 10 by DUI_Offender

[DUI_Offender]

2 hours ago, Perspektiv said:

 

Once the dust settles, I believe is where you will start to see more "real" numbers, once mass graves are uncovered and things actually tallied.

.

That's funny.

Despite the lack of technological advances, and the secrecy of the Holocaust by the Germans, the New York Times ran a story, that correctly stated in December 1942, that 3 million Jews had been exterminated, mainly in Poland and the Soviet Union. 

Edited July 10 by DUI_Offender

[Moonbox]

4 hours ago, Perspektiv said:

Russia has low morale, but highly motivated troops. Or at least, have shown more motivation than their enemy, in the more recent months.

This is what's funny.  These soldiers are so motivated that Russian commanders employ blocking units behind their assaults that shoot their own retreating soldiers.  

Russia has low morale, but highly motivated troops 😆...that's good shit.  

Edited July 10 by Moonbox

[Nationalist]

1 hour ago, Moonbox said:

This is what's funny.  These soldiers are so motivated that Russian commanders employ blocking units behind their assaults that shoot their own retreating soldiers.  

Russia has low morale, but highly motivated troops 😆...that's good shit.  

Where do you get this crap from?