User Posted July 6 Report Share Posted July 6 5 minutes ago, Nationalist said: With daily Russian advances, thousands more dead and nuclear missiles being prepared by the Americans and the Russians. Great news for all. Nuclear missiles being prepared? LOL It reminds me of the silliness when Clinton signed a treaty with Russia to "detarget" our Nuclear missiles. Nuclear Missiles are always prepared. What are you talking about? 1 Quote LOL, when people have to tell you they are ignoring you... From Robosmith: "IGNORE AWARDED DUE TO WORTHLESS POSTS. BYE." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DUI_Offender Posted July 6 Report Share Posted July 6 4 hours ago, Nationalist said: The denial of reality and eagerness to sacrifice Ukrainian lives is staggering. Not to mention the cost to us. Meh...stoopid is as stoopid does. I find it amusing that you perpetually speak of "lost lives" as a main reason to end this conflict, where Ukraine is holding it's own, but other Global conflicts you have absolutely no problem with war casualties (i.e. Gaza, Sudan, etc). If you were so concerned about civilian casualties, why are you not speaking up about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, where the casualty rate (at least for the Palestinians) may be far higher, and there is an actual genocide occurring? 44 minutes ago, Nationalist said: With daily Russian advances, thousands more dead and nuclear missiles being prepared by the Americans and the Russians. Great news for all. This is one of your most unintentionally hilarious comments. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DUI_Offender Posted July 6 Report Share Posted July 6 3 hours ago, Perspektiv said: The pressure for peace would be rapid, if it were thousands of US soldiers in body bags, or innocent civilians being killed, mutilated, raped or having your children kidnapped. If we are going by US history, nothing would be done. Americans lost a significant number of soldiers in WWII, Korea, and Vietnam. Only Vietnam saw widespread protests, and yet the US Government simply ignored the protests, and continued on with the war until announcing that they were going to withdraw all troops in 1973, to be completed in 1975. This decision had not much to do with the protests of young Americans, but rather that the US had realised that the Vietnamese were prepared to fight to the last man, which would mean nearly 40 million Vietnamese would have to be wiped out to acheive American military goals. America was not prepared to do this, and withdrew, leaving the South Vietnamese to fend for themselves. It is also very telling that you are going on about innocent civilians being killed, and children kidnapped, when the World has witnessed the Russian army doing this to Ukrainian villages during the first month of the war. This gives us an idea of what the Russians are going to do to the civilian population, if they annex the Ukraine territory they are currently holding, and are allowed to permanently keep it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
User Posted July 6 Report Share Posted July 6 12 minutes ago, DUI_Offender said: and there is an actual genocide occurring? While your overall point is sound, there is no genocide in Palestine. Quote LOL, when people have to tell you they are ignoring you... From Robosmith: "IGNORE AWARDED DUE TO WORTHLESS POSTS. BYE." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
User Posted July 6 Report Share Posted July 6 15 minutes ago, DUI_Offender said: This decision had not much to do with the protests of young Americans, but rather that the US had realised that the Vietnamese were prepared to fight to the last man, which would mean nearly 40 million Vietnamese would have to be wiped out to acheive American military goals. America was not prepared to do this, and withdrew, leaving the South Vietnamese to fend for themselves. This is not very accurate at all. The protests and American sentiment certainly played a heavy toll on the support for war, it didn't help that Nixon had just gotten caught up in Watergate. Also... like most wars since WWII the US has been involved in, we never fully commit to winning and play politics. The US was destroying the North Vietnamese on the battlefield. I forget the exact number, but it was taking something like an 8 to 1 ratio for them to be anywhere close to combat effective against our forces. The reality is that we confined ourselves to absurd rules of engagement that left us fighting in the South instead of taking the war to the North Vietnamese. We also made hollow threats to do just that, which is what led to the Paris Peace Accords. When we started our withdrawals, it was under a false peace with the North Vietnamese and they called our bluff with a full scale invasion of South Vietnam. Quote LOL, when people have to tell you they are ignoring you... From Robosmith: "IGNORE AWARDED DUE TO WORTHLESS POSTS. BYE." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nationalist Posted July 6 Report Share Posted July 6 (edited) 1 hour ago, User said: Nuclear missiles being prepared? LOL It reminds me of the silliness when Clinton signed a treaty with Russia to "detarget" our Nuclear missiles. Nuclear Missiles are always prepared. What are you talking about? https://www.cbsnews.com/news/poland-ready-to-host-nato-nuclear-weapons-president-andrzej-duda-says/ https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-65932700 Are you gonna "so what" this too? Maybe this might be important as well? https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/putin-says-russia-resume-production-intermediate-range-missiles-2024-06-28/ It's getting out of hand now. Edited July 6 by Nationalist Quote Its so lonely in m'saddle since m'horse died. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nationalist Posted July 6 Report Share Posted July 6 1 hour ago, DUI_Offender said: I find it amusing that you perpetually speak of "lost lives" as a main reason to end this conflict, where Ukraine is holding it's own, but other Global conflicts you have absolutely no problem with war casualties (i.e. Gaza, Sudan, etc). If you were so concerned about civilian casualties, why are you not speaking up about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, where the casualty rate (at least for the Palestinians) may be far higher, and there is an actual genocide occurring? This is one of your most unintentionally hilarious comments. The Palestinians don't have nukes. But ya...you can be amused... Quote Its so lonely in m'saddle since m'horse died. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DUI_Offender Posted July 6 Report Share Posted July 6 3 minutes ago, Nationalist said: The Palestinians don't have nukes. But ya...you can be amused... Yes, Russia has nuked so many nations in the past, it is only a matter of time that they end humanity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DUI_Offender Posted July 6 Report Share Posted July 6 8 minutes ago, Nationalist said: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/poland-ready-to-host-nato-nuclear-weapons-president-andrzej-duda-says/ https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-65932700 Are you gonna "so what" this too? Maybe this might be important as well? https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/putin-says-russia-resume-production-intermediate-range-missiles-2024-06-28/ It's getting out of hand now. I can't blame Russia Most of their current nuclear arsenal is so outdated and neglected, that they either would not deploy, or end up landing in the arctic, or worse, would detonate on Russian soil. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DUI_Offender Posted July 6 Report Share Posted July 6 (edited) 1 hour ago, User said: The US was destroying the North Vietnamese on the battlefield. I forget the exact number, but it was taking something like an 8 to 1 ratio for them to be anywhere close to combat effective against our troops I've heard the ratio was as high as 12:1. It should be noted that despite the mass protests, public opinion pools did not reflect the anti-war sentiment, at least for White middleclass Americans. This is one of the reasons Nixon geared his campaign towards middle class America, or as Nixon called them "America's forgotten people" Edited July 6 by DUI_Offender Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
User Posted July 6 Report Share Posted July 6 9 minutes ago, Nationalist said: The Palestinians don't have nukes. But ya...you can be amused... So... now you only care if people are being killed when very specifically they have Nuclear weapons? Ukraine doesn't have nukes... 1 Quote LOL, when people have to tell you they are ignoring you... From Robosmith: "IGNORE AWARDED DUE TO WORTHLESS POSTS. BYE." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nationalist Posted July 6 Report Share Posted July 6 13 minutes ago, DUI_Offender said: Yes, Russia has nuked so many nations in the past, it is only a matter of time that they end humanity. I don't think they'd start it. I think some id1ot like Brandon will. 12 minutes ago, DUI_Offender said: I can't blame Russia Most of their current nuclear arsenal is so outdated and neglected, that they either would not deploy, or end up landing in the arctic, or worse, would detonate on Russian soil. Hilarious...ya...ok... Quote Its so lonely in m'saddle since m'horse died. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nationalist Posted July 6 Report Share Posted July 6 10 minutes ago, User said: So... now you only care if people are being killed when very specifically they have Nuclear weapons? Ukraine doesn't have nukes... User...being obtuse does not make for good arguments. Zelinsky already knows his military is thin and losing. Now the question becomes, how long will he let this go on? As for the rest of Europe...and us on this side of the pond, is Ukraine really worth it? Quote Its so lonely in m'saddle since m'horse died. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
User Posted July 6 Report Share Posted July 6 1 hour ago, Nationalist said: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/poland-ready-to-host-nato-nuclear-weapons-president-andrzej-duda-says/ https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-65932700 Are you gonna "so what" this too? Maybe this might be important as well? https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/putin-says-russia-resume-production-intermediate-range-missiles-2024-06-28/ It's getting out of hand now. And? So what? You made some vague comments about getting nuclear missiles ready... as if NATO, US, and Russia do not already have many, many missiles ready. This is political posturing over intermediate-range weapons going back years before Russia ever invaded Ukraine because they were violating the terms of the treaty and because China was not part of that and making their own. And Russia is moving tactical nukes around... so what? Whatever Nuclear threat exists already exists. We are back to your bad faith arguments that we should just let Russia do whatever they want around the world... because *GASP* they have nuclear weapons. 46 minutes ago, Nationalist said: User...being obtuse does not make for good arguments. Zelinsky already knows his military is thin and losing. Now the question becomes, how long will he let this go on? As for the rest of Europe...and us on this side of the pond, is Ukraine really worth it? You were the one being obtuse. You continually decry the death of people in this war... and then the point is made that you certainly don't seem to care much about all the other people dying around the world and your big response was... they don't have nukes. Quote LOL, when people have to tell you they are ignoring you... From Robosmith: "IGNORE AWARDED DUE TO WORTHLESS POSTS. BYE." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Army Guy Posted July 6 Report Share Posted July 6 16 hours ago, DUI_Offender said: This is another one of your falsehoods. At the eve of the Russian invasion, Ukraine had just under 44 million people, not 37 million as you would ahve us believe. 37 million is the current active population of Ukraine. That is because you are lying. Just come out, and admit that you want Putin to conquer Ukraine, and for the Ukrainians to surrender. You have pretty much tried in vain to make a case for Ukraine surrendering to Russia, or as you call it "peace talks." Most of what you post, is your personal feelings. Facts have no feelings. How ironic.... Typical gaslighting. You have spent this entire thread on your feelings on the Ukraine war, and provided very few of outright inaccurate statements. So you do project onto others your lack of knowledge in regards to this conflict. According to the United Nations, Ukraine has a population of 36,744,636 as of 2023.[5] In July 2023, Reuters reported that due to the refugee outpouring into Western Europe, the population of Kyiv-controlled areas may have decreased to as low as 28 million.[6] This is a steep decline from 2020, when it had a population of almost 42 million people.[7 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Ukraine I know more false hoods...your really going to have to do your own research, goggle is a wonderful thing, let me you if this source is a problem for you there are literally hundreds more... Please Point out where i lied, or mislead the readers , ...and if your right i will admit my mistakes, I did make a case for talks...If NATO is not going to give them the tools to win, then what ?,I've asked you this a few times now , i know you don't answer questions.... I've given out atleast a dozen sources that state the same thing i have...they are not feelings they are facts or suggestion from people that are experts in their fields...that solve these problems all the time...maybe it is time to read some of those sources... Point those inaccurate statements out, with facts and sources of your own..., thats what a debate is an exchange of ideas and conversations, so far all you have been able to do is tell me i'm wrong....that and i love mother Russia for some reason... Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Army Guy Posted July 6 Report Share Posted July 6 (edited) 18 hours ago, Moonbox said: You've already decided on a narrative, and you're going to ignore all evidence and reasoning that contradicts it. See: They're not. You've looked at the maps, and to see these "steady advances" (measured in meters) you have to zoom the map in to the point where you see individual houses. The best part is it's all being gained for the low low cost of 1200 dead and wounded a day. Russia runs out of manpower long before the Ukrainians do, and decades before the Ukrainians run out of land, at that rate. "Advancing is advancing" is a stupid thing say in that context, especially as former army, when you actually know better. If the Russian arty is doing its job, it wouldn't be suffering 10x the casualties despite firing 10x more shells than the Ukrainians, and they'd actually be advancing (more than a few feet per day). "but but but 80% of the Ukrainian casualties are caused by Russian artillery" is not a counterpoint. All that means is that Russians suck worse at everything else. Yes, that's the one thing that we agree on. Economically, NATO and the West can trickle tiny, barely noticeable fractions of their budgets towards Ukraine, and evidently that's enough to foil Russians, who are pouring ~30% of their GDP into it. Step up support just a little bit, and the Russians can't keep up. They'll go bankrupt, and you and I will never notice the money sent to Ukraine. THOSE are the economies of scale we're looking at here. Russia is a dirt poor shithole full of servile mud people. The only thing Russia has going for it is that it has more lives to throw away, and Sad Vlad's desperate propaganda efforts to make the situation seem hopeless to simple minds in the West (with you obliging him). I have yet to see much in the way of evidence that counters what i have provided... Russia has been making advances , not counted in meters but in KMs, and yes you have to zoom it out to get the true size of the gains, unlike your map at 1 over 500,000 which is hard to see anything in detail...but that was intentional to prove your point...Still bent out shape at the cost, have you seen Russia complain about there losses...have they changed tactics, tried something new...the last senior general was relieved because of no progress...the map i showed you is from a few days ago it has already changed, with more Russian gains.... advancing is advancing , almost as stupid as saying they are not making any gains...when every media outlet on the planet is telling a much different story....Ukraines military is say the same thing, maybe they are onto something....provide a credible source that states your point , And yet Russian troops are breaking through Ukraineian lines and moving forward... And yet currently Russia is maintaining the momentum because they are right now they have more resources, in all areas....And NATO maintains enough support to maintain status quo...and giving the Russians a small advantage which it is using to advance...NATO has many other priorities' that take precedence over supporting Ukraine...like or it or not...The real question is why is NATO not growing tired of this conflict and just boost support to push the russians out? it is creating a draw on their own efforts to rearm... If NATO does not step up with more support, how is ukraine going to survive...I guess those 3 NATO generals who also posted almost the same things i've been stating has been listening to the same podcasts...I think they should be able to make educated opinions on the topic, as they do it everyday...you guys act like i made all this up.... Edited July 6 by Army Guy Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 7 Report Share Posted July 7 4 hours ago, DUI_Offender said: This gives us an idea of what the Russians are going to do to the civilian population, if they annex the Ukraine territory they are currently holding, and are allowed to permanently keep it. All the more reason to stop it from growing in size. You're delusional if you think Russia is giving any land back without major concessions in return. Your best bet, is them giving some back. Very hard to negotiate when the hostage holder has a gun to your head. You're not in a position to make any demands. You're in a position to make concessions, and hopefully your aggressor can meet you halfway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DUI_Offender Posted July 7 Report Share Posted July 7 32 minutes ago, Perspektiv said: All the more reason to stop it from growing in size. You're delusional if you think Russia is giving any land back without major concessions in return. Your best bet, is them giving some back. Very hard to negotiate when the hostage holder has a gun to your head. You're not in a position to make any demands. You're in a position to make concessions, and hopefully your aggressor can meet you halfway. ...in other words, surrender. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DUI_Offender Posted July 7 Report Share Posted July 7 3 hours ago, Nationalist said: User...being obtuse does not make for good arguments. Zelinsky already knows his military is thin and losing. Now the question becomes, how long will he let this go on? When making a rebuttal to a post, it helps to at least to spell the man's name right Zelenskyy not Zelinsky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 7 Report Share Posted July 7 7 minutes ago, DUI_Offender said: surrender. Some would say, compromise. But if you prefer that terminology, you're free to use it. You clearly have a country that can hold back Russia, and in Russia, a country that can hold onto most of their gains. You stick to this until Ukraine goes through 10 to 15% of its population, as being the threshold of "enough carnage"? Or accept you are not pushing back Russia. Compromise, in the name of peace. Surrender, if you prefer. You're not teaching Russia any lessons by making this last longer. You're actually hurting Ukraine worse. Am quite confident Putin loses no sleep over this. Zelensky looks like he's aged a decade. You teach Putin a lesson by invading his country and turning the tables on him. Putin only respects power and brutality, and he has seen neither from Ukraine. Here's to you predictably highlighting my "surrender" or similar quote, vs brining an actual counter argument. Cue in, 5, 4.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DUI_Offender Posted July 7 Report Share Posted July 7 (edited) 2 hours ago, Army Guy said: According to the United Nations, Ukraine has a population of 36,744,636 as of 2023.[5] In July 2023, Reuters reported that due to the refugee outpouring into Western Europe, the population of Kyiv-controlled areas may have decreased to as low as 28 million.[6] This is a steep decline from 2020, when it had a population of almost 42 million people.[7 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Ukraine I know more false hoods...your really going to have to do your own research, goggle is a wonderful thing, let me you if this source is a problem for you there are literally hundreds more... Again you contradict yourself, and gaslight the forum. You clearly stated that: Ukraine has a total population of around 37, million, with a large chunk of that has fled the country.... "Ukraine's population was more than 43 million before the war, but nearly six million have since fled, the UN says." https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-66376561 You had stated that Ukraine had 37 million people before the war, and that millions had fled the country, which the average reader would assume that present day Ukraine must have just over 30 milllion people. Perhaps what you meant to say that Ukraine NOW has 37 million, and misspoke. On the grand stage, this fact is irrelevant. However, I just wanted to refute misinformation you have spread. Edited July 7 by DUI_Offender Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DUI_Offender Posted July 7 Report Share Posted July 7 (edited) 19 minutes ago, Perspektiv said: You stick to this until Ukraine goes through 10 to 15% of its population, as being the threshold of "enough carnage"? Ukraine has experienced roughly 100,000 fatalities since the Russians invaded in 2022. If we were to go by the present day population of Ukraine (roughly 37 million people), this would mean Ukraine has lost 0.3% of it's population. At this rate, Ukraine will lose 10% of it's population around 2098, or in 74 years. I will be dead and buried when Ukraine loses this many people. Edited July 7 by DUI_Offender Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DUI_Offender Posted July 7 Report Share Posted July 7 (edited) 1 hour ago, Perspektiv said: All the more reason to stop it from growing in size. You're delusional if you think Russia is giving any land back without major concessions in return. Your best bet, is them giving some back. Very hard to negotiate when the hostage holder has a gun to your head. You're not in a position to make any demands. You're in a position to make concessions, and hopefully your aggressor can meet you halfway. My post: "Russia has committed several massacres against the local population on Ukrainian land they have annexed. They have repeatedly engaged in war crimes against the Ukrainian population" Your reply (in layman's terms): "Then they should stop fighting!" Sometime I wonder why I even bother to reply to you.... Edited July 7 by DUI_Offender Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Army Guy Posted July 7 Report Share Posted July 7 1 hour ago, DUI_Offender said: Again you contradict yourself, and gaslight the forum. You clearly stated that: Ukraine has a total population of around 37, million, with a large chunk of that has fled the country.... "Ukraine's population was more than 43 million before the war, but nearly six million have since fled, the UN says." https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-66376561 You had stated that Ukraine had 37 million people before the war, and that millions had fled the country, which the average reader would assume that present day Ukraine must have just over 30 milllion people. Perhaps what you meant to say that Ukraine NOW has 37 million, and misspoke. On the grand stage, this fact is irrelevant. However, I just wanted to refute misinformation you have spread. 1 hour ago, DUI_Offender said: Again you contradict yourself, and gaslight the forum. You clearly stated that: Ukraine has a total population of around 37, million, with a large chunk of that has fled the country.... "Ukraine's population was more than 43 million before the war, but nearly six million have since fled, the UN says." https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-66376561 You had stated that Ukraine had 37 million people before the war, and that millions had fled the country, which the average reader would assume that present day Ukraine must have just over 30 milllion people. Perhaps what you meant to say that Ukraine NOW has 37 million, and misspoke. On the grand stage, this fact is irrelevant. However, I just wanted to refute misinformation you have spread. Look i even highlighted it for you, i think you have a reading or comprehension problem...I'll go over it again, just for you..., before the war Ukraine HAD a population of 42,million....in early 2023 that population had shrunk to almost 37,million due to people fleeing the country......In JULY 2023 Ukrainian controlled population shrunk to as low as 28 million....also due to people fleeing the country.....That info was provided by the UN...not sure how that is gas lighting... Show me where i said the population was 37 million before the war...go back a reread it a few times...I gave the source that phrase came from so you could read it , then understand it.... Quote Ukraine has experienced roughly 100,000 fatalities since the Russians invaded in 2022. If we were to go by the present day population of Ukraine (roughly 37 million people), this would mean Ukraine has lost 0.3% of it's population. At this rate, Ukraine will lose 10% of it's population around 2098, or in 74 years. I will be dead and buried when Ukraine loses this many people. You do know that your numbers count total population, men , women and children....which if we used your numbers every Ukrainian citizen regardless of age is capable of fighting....maybe you should be just counting fighting age men and women, deduct those already killed or wounded, then tell us what is percentage is left of the Ukrainian army...and how long they are going to last... And why is it all these NATO generals are stating the exact opposite of what you are saying...I have to say your terrible at this debating thing...and very terrible about the knowledge of this conflict...did you even read those sources...no you did not... I broke it down into color codes so you can easily compare it to what i said...and how you misinterpreted it ... According to the United Nations, Ukraine has a population of 36,744,636 as of 2023.[5] In July 2023, Reuters reported that due to the refugee outpouring into Western Europe, the population of Kyiv-controlled areas may have decreased to as low as 28 million.[6] This is a steep decline from 2020, when it had a population of almost 42 million people.[7 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Ukraine Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DUI_Offender Posted July 7 Report Share Posted July 7 (edited) 4 hours ago, Army Guy said: You do know that your numbers count total population, men , women and children....which if we used your numbers every Ukrainian citizen regardless of age is capable of fighting....maybe you should be just counting fighting age men and women, deduct those already killed or wounded, then tell us what is percentage is left of the Ukrainian army... Another common gaslighting technique in arguments, is "moving the goalposts," something you have demonstrated here. The author said Ukrainians. Period. Nothing was said about able bodied men, or soldiers. Edited July 7 by DUI_Offender Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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