El Salvador's mass incarceration policy seems to be working

[QuebecOverCanada]

El Salvador had a homicide rate of 36 murders for 100 000 inhabitants back in 2019. It has trended down to 7.8 in 2022.

How did they achieve such a feat? By incarcerating criminals, fast. Nayib Bukele, elected in 2019 has made it clear that law and order was his first priority, building a huge prison for El Salvador's criminals swiftly. He increased the salaries of the country's troops and the police. He even unfortunately went so far as to have cause innocents to be jailed as trials were expedited, it has been denounced by numerous NGOs. Bukele has kind of an authoritarian approach to things, and will represent himself once again for El Salvador's next election.

I found El Salvador's steps to be in line with the mentality in much poorer countries than Canada. What is happening there could be imitated by Ecuador which has many cartels trying to run the country.

Is it better to run a developing country ridden with crime this way? I think we have the proof that might be the case that dread has its virtues when it comes to some social issues in some parts of the world. I also think that this kind of policies will run out of its logic at one point as the cost of imprisoning such a huge chunk of its population will lead to economical losses. What are your thoughts on the matter? Is it moral to bring down crime this way?

 

Please move this to Rest of the World subsection of this forum.

[CdnFox]

A finger behind bars can't pull the trigger of a gun.

[TreeBeard]

Do you credit increased incarceration as the only factor in reducing the murder rate?

[Aristides]

The US has the largest prison population and the greatest incarceration rate in the world. If that's all it takes there should be no murders in the US at all.

[Guest]

23 hours ago, TreeBeard said:

Do you credit increased incarceration as the only factor in reducing the murder rate?

He also used strong arm tactics, mobilizing the military, and making rapid arrests of well over 100 000 early in his crack down campaign.

23 hours ago, QuebecOverCanada said:

Is it better to run a developing country ridden with crime this way?

I look at a dictator like Rodrigo Duterte as an example. Under his leadership, crime plummeted. It was a night and day difference.

He also arbitrarily ordered the killings of any drug pushers, providing the police with the protections allowing them to do so with impunity.

The west condemned these measures.

Understanding the Philippines or similar countries, is understanding the true scale of the corruption that you will find in any poorer country.

Gangs acquire power, as they have tons of money, they can buy both legal and political immunity from.

Very hard to fight these people with a poorly armed police officer, making a fraction of the salary of these criminals, many of which have access to military grade weapons, bulletproof vests and vehicles. 

The west doesn't see this level of corruption. IE being pulled over by a cop in Manila, because you're parked illegally.

The signs, your plates state the opposite. The cop insists, and if you have a higher IQ, are quick to realize what is going on as he asks you for your driver's license.

You hand him it, with 1, 000 Philippines pesos tucked underneath. 

He rapidly checks, comes back, and tells you you're free to leave now smiling, introducing you to a level of corruption you're mercifully shielded from (regarding scale).

Cracking down on something like this takes brute force.

Look at China. I was recently in Hong Kong. Insanely low crime.

They are heavy handed with their laws, and consequences for breaking them. 

I know someone who was arrested near Wanchai, Hong Kong for throwing trash and missing the garbage can. A cop noticed, and made the arrest.

Trash receptacles often will have large yellow stickers warning you of the 6 month jail penalty for littering.

I guess I relate to it, because I had a crazy immigrant mother.

Consequences were swift and devastating for bad behavior.

My white friends had parents telling me how polite and respectful that I was, almost in insinuating that my friends should learn from me.

I love the rights I enjoy in Canada, but I can also appreciate the insanely safe and low crime environment that can be created with a country ran with an iron fist.

It doesn't fit all, as some allow that power to corrupt, and thus they wind up hurting their countries, while suppressing any dissent to complain about it.

[TreeBeard]

5 hours ago, Perspektiv said:

He also used strong arm tactics, mobilizing the military, and making rapid arrests of well over 100 000 early in his crack down campaign.

There was also a negotiated ceasefire between the 2 largest gangs in the country, which had an immediate effect.   They also invested heavily into social programs to keep kids out of gangs.  
 

You seem to be creating a story that suits your agenda.  Maybe post some peer reviewed studies?

Edited January 27, 2024 by TreeBeard

[Michael Hardner]

2 minutes ago, TreeBeard said:

 

You seem to be creating a story that suits your agenda.  Maybe post some peer reviewed studies?

People have already forgotten about Ontario's boot camps?

[WestCanMan]

On 1/25/2024 at 1:25 PM, QuebecOverCanada said:

El Salvador had a homicide rate of 36 murders for 100 000 inhabitants back in 2019. It has trended down to 7.8 in 2022.

How did they achieve such a feat? By incarcerating criminals, fast. Nayib Bukele, elected in 2019 has made it clear that law and order was his first priority, building a huge prison for El Salvador's criminals swiftly. He increased the salaries of the country's troops and the police. He even unfortunately went so far as to have cause innocents to be jailed as trials were expedited, it has been denounced by numerous NGOs. Bukele has kind of an authoritarian approach to things, and will represent himself once again for El Salvador's next election.

I worked with a guy who was a huge boxing fan, and he told me a story about how they got Kinshasa ready for The Rumble In The Jungle back in the early '70s.

Apparently gangs, violent crime and corruption were off the charts there, and there was no way that they could host that event without hundreds of people getting mugged, kidnapped, etc.

The gov't was looking at this as a cash cow and they didn't want this to end up being a huge black eye for their country, so the cops actually did their job their for a while: they rounded up hundreds of known criminals, and as the story goes, they even executed a bunch of the higher-ups just to prove that no one was going to get away anything while all of the shiny tourists were there, pouring money into the city. 

That story might be true, mostly true, or mostly fantasy, I dunno. I heard the story way before you could look that kinda thing up on the internet and I never thought about it much before just now. 

I didn't find anything with a quick Google search but I'm sure there's something to it. It sounds like a Don King story. 

Edited January 27, 2024 by WestCanMan

[OftenWrong]

16 hours ago, Aristides said:

The US has the largest prison population and the greatest incarceration rate in the world. If that's all it takes there should be no murders in the US at all.

Malarchy. The vast majority of people in US prisons are there for drug offenses, by a wide margin. So there's your theory out the window again.

 🙄

[Michael Hardner]

32 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

Malarchy. The vast majority of people in US prisons are there for drug offenses, by a wide margin. So there's your theory out the window again.

 🙄

Interesting question.  There do seem to be a lot of murders in the USA.  And they're alone in the group of civilized democratic countries in using capital punishment.

 

Of course this is an old debate...

[Aristides]

2 hours ago, OftenWrong said:

Malarchy. The vast majority of people in US prisons are there for drug offenses, by a wide margin. So there's your theory out the window again.

 🙄

Ya, and how well has that worked?

[WestCanMan]

2 hours ago, Aristides said:

Ya, and how well has that worked?

Apparently it's popular.

The co-author of the last great marijuana criminal round-up bill is now the POTUS, and his cultist followers believe that he's the great protector of the class of people that he mass-incarcerated.

[WestCanMan]

21 hours ago, Perspektiv said:

He also used strong arm tactics, mobilizing the military, and making rapid arrests of well over 100 000 early in his crack down campaign.

I look at a dictator like Rodrigo Duterte as an example. Under his leadership, crime plummeted. It was a night and day difference.

He also arbitrarily ordered the killings of any drug pushers, providing the police with the protections allowing them to do so with impunity.

The west condemned these measures.

Understanding the Philippines or similar countries, is understanding the true scale of the corruption that you will find in any poorer country.

Gangs acquire power, as they have tons of money, they can buy both legal and political immunity from.

Very hard to fight these people with a poorly armed police officer, making a fraction of the salary of these criminals, many of which have access to military grade weapons, bulletproof vests and vehicles. 

The west doesn't see this level of corruption. IE being pulled over by a cop in Manila, because you're parked illegally.

The signs, your plates state the opposite. The cop insists, and if you have a higher IQ, are quick to realize what is going on as he asks you for your driver's license.

You hand him it, with 1, 000 Philippines pesos tucked underneath. 

He rapidly checks, comes back, and tells you you're free to leave now smiling, introducing you to a level of corruption you're mercifully shielded from (regarding scale).

Cracking down on something like this takes brute force.

Seeing as Duterte willingly relinquished power, he obviously wasn't the person that he was portrayed to be by western media. 

A couple years after he has moved on, I guess it's time for a really honest assessment of what life was like before 2016 and what it was like in 2022 when he left office, and whether or not his admittedly brutal tactics were worth it... 

Is even a word of this true: https://gulfnews.com/world/asia/philippines/how-duterte-changed-the-philippines-in-six-years-of-his-presidency-1.1647534496252 

I've never been to the Philppines before. 

[Aristides]

25 minutes ago, WestCanMan said:

Apparently it's popular.

The co-author of the last great marijuana criminal round-up bill is now the POTUS, and his cultist followers believe that he's the great protector of the class of people that he mass-incarcerated.

It's always been popular in many US states.

[Rebound]

7 hours ago, OftenWrong said:

Malarchy. The vast majority of people in US prisons are there for drug offenses, by a wide margin. So there's your theory out the window again.

 🙄

Not according to this article:

https://www.sentencingproject.org/reports/mass-incarceration-trends/
 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, WestCanMan said:

Seeing as Duterte willingly relinquished power, he obviously wasn't the person that he was portrayed to be by western media. 

He spoke in an unfiltered way. He called out Obama publicly (insulting him in Tagalog). Its just something you don't do as a Filipino president. Davao City where he was once a mayor, have insanely low crime rates, as they run an iron fist like campaign there.

Duterte once openly talked about hanging a corrupt soldier from his helicopter, and dropping him to his death.

Calling out Trudeau for dumping trash in the Philippines that was illegally shipped there, made him a legend in my eyes. He doesn't play, so Canada knew they had to act fast as when Duterte states he would ship it and dump it "on your beautiful beaches", you know he will do it, further insulting Trudeau telling him to have a "reception" and to "eat it, if you like".

I always felt the need for a firearm in cities like Manila, but felt safe closer to his city in Mindanao, so he must be doing something right.

He's essentially what Trump would be, with less checks on his powers. I.E His campaign on killing drug pushers, is a bit extreme, but kept people in check.

Sorry, but in a country like that where there are levels to the corruption a westerner will have never come close to, you need someone who doesn't play, and is not afraid to brutally crack down.

Give you an example. Last year, we took the shuttle from the Manila airport, the year after Duterte was gone.

Night and day difference. Airport staff aggressively asking for tips, feeling you have to watch over your shoulders all the time. We asked a security guard for directions, and he gets in our way, thanking us aggressively--which we knew was the language to tip him.

On the shuttle, there are big signs stating "no tipping". Driver insists on grabbing all of our luggage. Trip is over, we're at the next terminal, and he's aggressively thanking passengers. Some aren't savvy on what he's doing clearly uncomfortable, so I tip him when he approaches us. Then several others do the same (they won't stop, otherwise). He cracked down heavy on this when he was president.

The amount of cash obtained in tips alone, was insane. That corruption, is at the heart of the country's difficulty from rising from the ashes of what is a developing country.

We have a business in the Philippines, and one of our employees stole over 5, 000$ from us (in a scheme she had done over the course of months).

I wanted iron tough security to the business, CCTV cameras, and my wife insisted on lax security. Trusting blindly.

Play around with your money in a country like that, good luck.

You have cameras, and don't hesitate to get someone arrested in front of staff and press charges, and nobody will play with you. Treat them like gold, but for them to understand that theft will be punished with every ounce of the law.

A soft western politician would be eaten alive there.

Drive by the rich neighborhoods in many of the poor countries. Large walls, barbed wire. Broken glass imbedded into the concrete walls. Heavily armed security in gated communities entrances. Popularity of bulletproof vehicles.

Kindness doesn't work with people like this. Iron tough. Brutal consequences. Law and order. Heavy key investments, in education, infrastructure, etc. That's how you get a country like this back.

His economy is growing rapidly. I look at policy. Not mean shit they say.

[OftenWrong]

7 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

Interesting question.  There do seem to be a lot of murders in the USA.  And they're alone in the group of civilized democratic countries in using capital punishment.

 

Of course this is an old debate...

Why is it interesting?

Data from the Federal Bureau of Prisons

https://www.bop.gov/about/statistics/statistics_inmate_offenses.jsp

Drug Offenses

64,868

44.4%

Homicide, Assault, Kidnapping

4,789

3.3%

More than ten times the stat for homicide, assault and kidnapping combined.

6 hours ago, Aristides said:

Ya, and how well has that worked?

Yeah and how well has that worked?

[OftenWrong]

1 hour ago, Rebound said:

Not according to this article:

https://www.sentencingproject.org/reports/mass-incarceration-trends/
 

This says that drug offenses are the number one reason for high prison population. The rise in prisoner numbers coincides exactly with the "War on drugs". Harsh sentences, mandatory minimums contribute to it.

The war on drugs is a war on yourselves.

But we all know how you people love war, so...  

 

[WestCanMan]

9 minutes ago, Perspektiv said:

Drive by the rich neighborhoods in many of the poor countries. Large walls, barbed wire. Broken glass imbedded into the concrete walls. Heavily armed security in gated communities entrances. Popularity of bulletproof vehicles.

When I was in the navy we did a 3-month trip which started in the US and then visited Puerto Vallarta, Mazatlan, Acapulco in Mexico, Guayaquil, Ecuador and Punta Cana, Costa Rica.

Those broken-glass fences were all the rage in the 3 Mexican cities, and I found the poverty level there depressing. I always felt like if I didn't buy the cheap T-shirts and whatnot the people were going to starve. 

There's usually a 3-5 block radius in those places that are touristy and cute, but after that it's skinny dogs, dirty kids and garbage everywhere. 

Guayaquil was worse. There were 2-lane highways going in and out of it with a massive ditch in between, exactly like hwy 1 going from Chilliwack to Vancouver, but it was filled with garbage. Heaped with garbage. The smell of that garbage with a healthy side of urine tells you everything that you need to know about Guayaquil at that time. Oh, and those highways were bombed out and sketchily repaired again, but the craters weren't really filled all the way, so the roads were paved but with huge rough patches 10-20 feet across dotting them everywhere. And there were garbage trucks and dump trucks on blocks all over the place with their tires missing. 

So when we got to Costa Rica I didn't even want to get off the boat, and that says a lot if you've ever seen how people live on a destroyer (frigate really). 

I won't say I know about poverty in the Philippines because I've never been there, but I know what you mean by that.

Anyways...

Quote

Kindness doesn't work with people like this. Iron tough. Brutal consequences. Law and order.

I 100% understand the need for his dedication and toughness.

I know that it's hard for people here to understand giving cops the level of authority that Duterte did, but they're facing that threat level constantly, and if they can't fight back then they have no choice but to roll over, and that's the basis for a cesspool of a society. 

Quote

Heavy key investments, in education, infrastructure, etc. That's how you get a country like this back.

And TBH, if you have a country that's as corrupt as the Philippines were when he started, there's no such thing as investing in all of those things because 30-80% of the invested money doesn't go where it's intended to go.

Foreign money just won't come in when that's the case. 

Even in Canada a certain percent of gov't contracts will get skimmed off the top by non-contributors. 

SNC Lavalin was caught bribing a Mtl bureaucrat with $2.3M to guarantee they'd win the contract to work on the Jacques Cartier bridge there. That means that the taxpayers here overpaid greatly to pay for that bridge.

Quote

His economy is growing rapidly. I look at policy. Not mean shit they say.

So the country on the wrong track again since he left then? You mentioned the tipping thing, is the economy still growing now? Are wages growing? Is there still a lot of infrastructure growth? 

[WestCanMan]

It seems to me like Duterte really did put his country first, to a way greater extent than guys like Trudeau and Biden ever do. 

I think it's debatable if Trudeau and Biden are more for us than against us. It seems like Duterte really did do everything in his power to improve life in his country. 

Our media hated him, but our media is absolute garbage. If an airplane full of reporters covering Trudeau crashed, I'd be upset about the number of empty seats on it. 

[Michael Hardner]

28 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

Why is it interesting?

I honestly wish I knew what makes things interesting 🤔

[WestCanMan]

It's sad that when leftists look at evidence of how a country successfully fought crime, they choose not to learn from it, and instead to try to manipulate the conversation to take it off-course. 

Yeah, we know that the US justice system is broken, and for whatever reason leftists like it that way.

Here's a multiple guess question for lefties: Letting violent felons out of jail leads to more.....

1. joy
2. Kinder Bueno eggs
3. violent felonies

 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, WestCanMan said:

The smell of that garbage with a healthy side of urine tells you everything that you need to know about Guayaquil at that time.

Sounds like parts of Mindanao, which are under tourism advisories due to kidnapping, terrorism which is gripping parts of it (not parts where I visited). 

But you see where government funding stops. You know its bad, when you go to cities that are "rough" by developing country standards. 

Walking by heaps of garbage, and stray cats and dogs at every corner.

Am unfortunately used to it, as my wife was covering her mouth with a tissue, and making gagging sounds at times, as we walked past the cadavers of animals being eaten by other starving animals at times. All of this like you said, in open ditches.

Kids begging in these necks of the woods have ribcages showing. You feel broken hearted seeing this, but is out of your control.

Come back to Canada and see people complain because their local pool is broken for repairs, just makes you realize how good you have it living in the west. Quite humbling.

1 hour ago, WestCanMan said:

There's usually a 3-5 block radius in those places that are touristy and cute, but after that it's skinny dogs, dirty kids and garbage everywhere. 

Basically. 

1 hour ago, WestCanMan said:

I won't say I know about poverty in the Philippines because I've never been there, but I know what you mean by that.

Sounds like you have experienced quite similar.

Only thing that is different, is going to a place like Haiti, where in cities like Port au Prince, seeing a decomposing body in the streets isn't something uncommon.

I mean I wouldn't visit now, as those levels of violence would be too high to risk it with the wife. 

One of my relatives has a relative who went back, and has gone missing. They frantically tried to find money to fund a search, but I already know it would be to find remains.

1 hour ago, WestCanMan said:

then they have no choice but to roll over

The mistake people make, is look at a country like this with their lens. So, their standard of life, their government, and comparing it to a society that has none of these things. 

Took me months before I can say I adapted to the Philippines.

So water outtage? No problem if its raining. You grab buckets and collect the water so you can use it to shower and do dishes. 

Yes. Cold and all. I fully adapted.

1 hour ago, WestCanMan said:

You mentioned the tipping thing, is the economy still growing now? Are wages growing?

Covid has slowed things down and new president Marcos is unpopular as is the Biden of their country, due to his father who was an incredibly brutal dictator.

So while their economy grew, same as their middle class, going there recently left us in disbelief how bad things looked.

Never seen so much homelessness, crime and hopelessness in that country. 

He has spent billions on subways, lightrail and a state of the art world class airport that is slated to be completed soon (as well as a sky highway to ease congestion), but all of these benefit Manila.

That is part of the problem, if you travel south from there.

1 hour ago, WestCanMan said:

It seems to me like Duterte really did put his country first, to a way greater extent than guys like Trudeau and Biden ever do. 

He was loved by his people. 

Same as Trump. I can understand why he is so loved. 

Easy to make him look horrible. Just listen to any sound clip. Same as Duterte.

[Rebound]

2 hours ago, OftenWrong said:

This says that drug offenses are the number one reason for high prison population. The rise in prisoner numbers coincides exactly with the "War on drugs". Harsh sentences, mandatory minimums contribute to it.

The war on drugs is a war on yourselves.

But we all know how you people love war, so...  

 

More Republican BS out of you. 
What you said was, “The vast majority of people in US prisons are there for drug offenses, by a wide margin.”

I proved that you’re wrong, so you backpedal and say that drug convictions are the reason prison populations increased.  Maybe so, maybe not, but you were flat-out wrong. 
 

Meanwhile, we have a massive fentanyl and opioid problem and I think we ought to lock those dealers up.  

[WestCanMan]

1 hour ago, Perspektiv said:

Only thing that is different, is going to a place like Haiti, where in cities like Port au Prince, seeing a decomposing body in the streets isn't something uncommon.

I knew it was bad there, probably the last country that I'd ever go to, but I didn't know anyplace was that bad.

I know a guy who went to Haiti to do missionary work, he was there for 6 months, and his wife and baby went with him. The baby wasn't even a year old when they left. 

Call me a coward but I would NEVER take my wife and kid there. 

Quote

The mistake people make, is look at a country like this with their lens. So, their standard of life, their government, and comparing it to a society that has none of these things. 

Woke snobs will call that "situational ethics", as if that's a bad thing, but what works in one place/time doesn't work in others.

They do that to historical figures as well: judge people from 200 years ago based on today's standards. "Presentism". 

I always try to judge people by what they do when they're in a position of power. Do they get their kid an $83K/mo job or do they go all out to fight drugs and crime, create infrastructure, and bring in businesses? 

Something that the haters don't appreciate is that when you're a Trump, and you specifically take the life of a general in a foreign army or a terrorist leader, or when you're Duterte and you whack drug lords and terrorist leaders, you're putting a target on your own head, not on those below you. 

Most leaders don't like to play the regicide game, they only like to engage in wars where us peons are targeted.