What if Israeli leaders and intel knew about the attack in advance and let it succeed in order to quash Netanyahu's legal problems, ensure his plan to destroy the supreme court and gain an excuse to wipe out Hamas?.

[robosmith]

Many believe that Japan's attack on Pearl Harbor was known in advance (evidenced by all carriers being absent at the time) and it was kept secret to avoid disclosing that codes had been broken. But more importantly, to gain unanimity for America's entrance into WWII.

The success of Hamas is similarly suspicious due to the superior reputation of Israeli intelligence.

Because of that, I believe it is more likely plans for the attack were known than not.

[WestCanMan]

Quote

What if Israeli leaders and intel knew about the attack in advance and let it succeed...

This is probably the only intelligent thing that you've ever said. 

The part about "Netanyahu's legal issues" and "the supreme court" is just leftard BS. You're just being someone's stooge right now. 

 

I don't think that there's even a 1% chance that Hamas pulled of an attack of that magnitude without the Israelis being aware that it was happening. 

If I had to bet I'd say that they wanted this excuse for war against Hamas, even the part about "women and children being dragged into underground tunnels to be used as meat-shields for their own soldiers and weapons". 

It's great PR, right? One of the most critical elements of any successful military campaign is evidence of the enemy's big, evil fangs. 

Was it warranted?

Yup: their enemy actually does have those fangs. 1,600 years of history tells us that exact thing. 

If Israel doesn't let Hamas show the world exactly how evil they are, it's just a matter of time before the Israelis face an extinction-level event. And TBH, I think they probably still will anyways. 

I bet that at least 100M islamists would take part in a genocide against Israel if they thought they had a chance of winning, 400M islamists would cheer for it, another 700M people would silently get great satisfaction from it, and in the end, 99% of them would be quite comfortable having peaceful relations with the islamic state that emerges from the ashes - on day 1. They will consider the new guys "way better than the Israelis". 

Even in Canada Imams feel like they can openly talk about genocide against Israelis. That's weird. No one else in Canada talks about genocide like it's a great thing, unless maybe it's the LPOC talking about the unvaxed. 

[robosmith]

29 minutes ago, WestCanMan said:

This is probably the only intelligent thing that you've ever said. 

You mean beside proving you wrong about Trump's pathological lies?

29 minutes ago, WestCanMan said:

The part about "Netanyahu's legal issues" and "the supreme court" is just leftard BS. You're just being someone's stooge right now. 

Why? Because you don't know about Netanyahu's legal issues and his attempts to destroy their supreme court?

29 minutes ago, WestCanMan said:

I don't think that there's even a 1% chance that Hamas pulled of an attack of that magnitude without the Israelis being aware that it was happening. 

It does seem unlikely, but not THAT unlikely. Maybe a 10% chance.

29 minutes ago, WestCanMan said:

If I had to bet I'd say that they wanted this excuse for war against Hamas, even the part about "women and children being dragged into underground tunnels to be used as meat-shields for their own soldiers and weapons". 

It's great PR, right? One of the most critical elements of any successful military campaign is evidence of the enemy's big, evil fangs. 

Was it warranted?

Yup: their enemy actually does have those fangs. 1,600 years of history tells us that exact thing. 

If Israel doesn't let Hamas show the world exactly how evil they are, it's just a matter of time before the Israelis face an extinction-level event. And TBH, I think they probably still will anyways. 

I bet that at least 100M islamists would take part in a genocide against Israel if they thought they had a chance of winning, 400M islamists would cheer for it, another 700M people would silently get great satisfaction from it, and in the end, 99% of them would be quite comfortable having peaceful relations with the islamic state that emerges from the ashes - on day 1. They will consider the new guys "way better than the Israelis". 

Even in Canada Imams feel like they can openly talk about genocide against Israelis. That's weird. No one else in Canada talks about genocide like it's a great thing, unless maybe it's the LPOC talking about the unvaxed. 

Do you understand why SO MANY Arabs dislike the Zionists? 

[WestCanMan]

1 hour ago, robosmith said:

Do you understand why SO MANY Arabs dislike the Zionists? 

Let's pretend I said "no", just for the sake of argument.

I really wanna see you try to explain it without sounding like a stupid bigot. (As if the cat isn't already out of the bag lol)

[CdnFox]

4 hours ago, robosmith said:

Many believe that Japan's attack on Pearl Harbor was known in advance (evidenced by all carriers being absent at the time) and it was kept secret to avoid disclosing that codes had been broken. But more importantly, to gain unanimity for America's entrance into WWII.

Nobody with a brain believes that. The data is extremely clear. The US knew the japanese were conducting operations, they knew tensions were high and their may be an attack. They had info about possible attacks which had proven wrong. They actually believed an attack was imminent just a weekend or two before.

The carriers had been sent out to patrol and make sure the japanese weren't close to hawaii as a result of all of this. They DID know an attack was quite possible at some point. But not for sure and not when.

But when you're on alert for  months you tend to get sloppy.  As it was they did have a radar set looking for an attack from that direction and they DID spot the attack but it was mistaken for us planes.

There's zero mystery there (pardon the pun), and it was obvious how it happened and people were severely punished for their lax attitude, most notably the base commander who HAD been told many times an attack was a very very real possibility but half assed his precautions.  Nobody with any historical knowledge would think they 'let' it happen.

 

In this case, i'm sure it's similar. I'm sure they had intel that things were moving but probably didn't know exactly what or when and were watching but didn't get the clues in time.

Sometimes the bad guys get it right, and you don't need any additional explanation beyond that.

 

[Rebound]

I don’t think Netanyahu has so much control that he can get his intelligence agencies to deliberately permit the enemy to attack their own families and friends in order to help an election. 

[ironstone]

11 hours ago, robosmith said:

Many believe that Japan's attack on Pearl Harbor was known in advance (evidenced by all carriers being absent at the time) and it was kept secret to avoid disclosing that codes had been broken. But more importantly, to gain unanimity for America's entrance into WWII.

The success of Hamas is similarly suspicious due to the superior reputation of Israeli intelligence.

Because of that, I believe it is more likely plans for the attack were known than not.

If that were true, then there is a good chance of Israelis taking out their anger on Netanyahu after this war ends so that would be a very risky strategy.

I place the blame for this squarely on Hamas and their financial backers.

[Aristides]

The Japanese took great pains to keep Pearl Harbour secret, including total radio silence once the ships left. Pearl Harbour was also thought to be too shallow for a torpedo attack but the Japanese had studied the British attack on Taranto the year before.  The Americans did know something was up but not the details. Japan also attacked the Philippines, Hong Kong, Singapore and several other islands on the same day.

 

The British also warned Stalin about Germany attacking but didn't want to reveal their source which was Ultra. Stalin chose not to believe it. Things are much clearer after the fact when you can string a bunch of things together that seemed unrelated at the time.

Edited October 9, 2023 by Aristides

[West]

10 hours ago, WestCanMan said:

This is probably the only intelligent thing that you've ever said. 

The part about "Netanyahu's legal issues" and "the supreme court" is just leftard BS. You're just being someone's stooge right now. 

 

I don't think that there's even a 1% chance that Hamas pulled of an attack of that magnitude without the Israelis being aware that it was happening. 

If I had to bet I'd say that they wanted this excuse for war against Hamas, even the part about "women and children being dragged into underground tunnels to be used as meat-shields for their own soldiers and weapons". 

It's great PR, right? One of the most critical elements of any successful military campaign is evidence of the enemy's big, evil fangs. 

Was it warranted?

Yup: their enemy actually does have those fangs. 1,600 years of history tells us that exact thing. 

If Israel doesn't let Hamas show the world exactly how evil they are, it's just a matter of time before the Israelis face an extinction-level event. And TBH, I think they probably still will anyways. 

I bet that at least 100M islamists would take part in a genocide against Israel if they thought they had a chance of winning, 400M islamists would cheer for it, another 700M people would silently get great satisfaction from it, and in the end, 99% of them would be quite comfortable having peaceful relations with the islamic state that emerges from the ashes - on day 1. They will consider the new guys "way better than the Israelis". 

Even in Canada Imams feel like they can openly talk about genocide against Israelis. That's weird. No one else in Canada talks about genocide like it's a great thing, unless maybe it's the LPOC talking about the unvaxed. 

Trudeau and Biden have emboldened terrorists

[robosmith]

2 hours ago, Rebound said:

I don’t think Netanyahu has so much control that he can get his intelligence agencies to deliberately permit the enemy to attack their own families and friends in order to help an election. 

It's not just "an election," Netanyahu's ambitions are a wholesale remake of Israeli governance with huge shift away from liberal democracy.

He's dismantling their supreme court which has lately been the only check on conservative power.

Fascism often takes over in the face of strong existential threats and ignoring a large planned attack certainly magnifies such a threat, unless the subterfuge is discovered and corrected.

[robosmith]

55 minutes ago, ironstone said:

If that were true, then there is a good chance of Israelis taking out their anger on Netanyahu after this war ends so that would be a very risky strategy.

I place the blame for this squarely on Hamas and their financial backers.

Certainly ^this is true, but that does not make that blame EXCLUSIVE.

A lot of the Israeli military has been insulted by Netanyahu and his attempt to dismantle their supreme court.

It is not beyond the pale that they might sabotage Netanyahu's political prospects for that "success."

[Rebound]

21 minutes ago, robosmith said:

It's not just "an election," Netanyahu's ambitions are a wholesale remake of Israeli governance with huge shift away from liberal democracy.

He's dismantling their supreme court which has lately been the only check on conservative power.

Fascism often takes over in the face of strong existential threats and ignoring a large planned attack certainly magnifies such a threat, unless the subterfuge is discovered and corrected.

Don’t confuse my disagreement with you as support of Netanyahu.  I dislike him.  But I just don’t see how the intelligence services would allow a massive attack like this to occur and cover up their knowledge.  
 

A good conspiracy theory has to be plausible, and what you’re suggesting is not. Israel is a very small country. These intelligence officers have family and friends who were killed in this outbreak.  They would not all silently allow such a thing to happen. Yes, people in intelligence keep secrets, but not something like this. I simply cannot believe it at all. There will be inquiries and investigations into the intelligence failures once this is over, but I am certain that something like this did not happen. 

[robosmith]

4 minutes ago, Rebound said:

Don’t confuse my disagreement with you as support of Netanyahu.  I dislike him.  But I just don’t see how the intelligence services would allow a massive attack like this to occur and cover up their knowledge.  
 

A good conspiracy theory has to be plausible, and what you’re suggesting is not. Israel is a very small country. These intelligence officers have family and friends who were killed in this outbreak.  They would not all silently allow such a thing to happen. Yes, people in intelligence keep secrets, but not something like this. I simply cannot believe it at all. There will be inquiries and investigations into the intelligence failures once this is over, but I am certain that something like this did not happen. 

I am not familiar with the individual intelligence officers in Israel, but I would not be surprised if they backed a wholesale shift away from liberal democracy for longer term "gain" as right wingers see it.

[Deluge]

13 hours ago, robosmith said:

Many believe that Japan's attack on Pearl Harbor was known in advance (evidenced by all carriers being absent at the time) and it was kept secret to avoid disclosing that codes had been broken. But more importantly, to gain unanimity for America's entrance into WWII.

The success of Hamas is similarly suspicious due to the superior reputation of Israeli intelligence.

Because of that, I believe it is more likely plans for the attack were known than not.

It does look a little suspicious, but maybe Hamas is just that crazy; we'll have to see how hard Israel hits back. 

[robosmith]

6 minutes ago, Deluge said:

It does look a little suspicious, but maybe Hamas is just that crazy; we'll have to see how hard Israel hits back. 

IF they are crazy, it is even more unlikely they would have been able to keep it secret.

It takes calculated discipline to keep something secret among a large group of people.

Crazy people are not known for their calculated discipline.

[Deluge]

2 minutes ago, robosmith said:

IF they are crazy, it is even more unlikely they would have been able to keep it secret.

It takes calculated discipline to keep something secret among a large group of people.

Crazy people are not known for their calculated discipline.

That's a good point.

They've hated the Jews forever, though, so it might be as simple as them wanting (again) to wipe Israel out. 

I hope Netanyahu isn't planning anything nefarious. I've typically liked that guy. 

[robosmith]

3 minutes ago, Deluge said:

That's a good point.

They've hated the Jews forever, though, so it might be as simple as them wanting (again) to wipe Israel out. 

I hope Netanyahu isn't planning anything nefarious. I've typically liked that guy. 

More likely that Palestinians want to return to the land their ancestors lived on for many hundreds of years before the Zionists drove the out with terrorism in 1948.

[Legato]

58 minutes ago, robosmith said:

More likely that Palestinians want to return to the land their ancestors lived on for many hundreds of years before the Zionists drove the out with terrorism in 1948.

Before 1948 Palestine was home to a diverse population of Arabs, Jews, and Christians, as all groups had religious ties to the area, especially the city of Jerusalem. The land itself was under the control of various empires, such as the Assyrians, Babylonians, Persians, Greeks, Romans, Byzantines, and eventually the Islamic Caliphate and the Ottoman Empire.

[reason10]

16 hours ago, robosmith said:

Many believe that Japan's attack on Pearl Harbor was known in advance (evidenced by all carriers being absent at the time) and it was kept secret to avoid disclosing that codes had been broken. But more importantly, to gain unanimity for America's entrance into WWII.

The success of Hamas is similarly suspicious due to the superior reputation of Israeli intelligence.

Because of that, I believe it is more likely plans for the attack were known than not.

FDR did that with the Pearl Harbor attack. He knew of it, six months in advance, and needed America's involvement in the war because his economic programs had heightened the Great Depression.

No way Netanyahu would do that, for the simple reason that unlike you Nazis, he's not a JEW HATER.

[Aristides]

Will the Republicans get their shit together and provide a functioning House to deal with this? Not counting on it.

Edited October 9, 2023 by Aristides

[Aristides]

6 hours ago, Rebound said:

Don’t confuse my disagreement with you as support of Netanyahu.  I dislike him.  But I just don’t see how the intelligence services would allow a massive attack like this to occur and cover up their knowledge.  
 

A good conspiracy theory has to be plausible, and what you’re suggesting is not. Israel is a very small country. These intelligence officers have family and friends who were killed in this outbreak.  They would not all silently allow such a thing to happen. Yes, people in intelligence keep secrets, but not something like this. I simply cannot believe it at all. There will be inquiries and investigations into the intelligence failures once this is over, but I am certain that something like this did not happen. 

This will go down with other conspiracy theories like the Bush government was in on 9/11.

4 hours ago, Legato said:

Before 1948 Palestine was home to a diverse population of Arabs, Jews, and Christians, as all groups had religious ties to the area, especially the city of Jerusalem. The land itself was under the control of various empires, such as the Assyrians, Babylonians, Persians, Greeks, Romans, Byzantines, and eventually the Islamic Caliphate and the Ottoman Empire.

Yes, there has never been such a thing as the country of Palestine.

[robosmith]

20 minutes ago, Aristides said:

This will go down with other conspiracy theories like the Bush government was in on 9/11.

The CIA does not have the reputation of the Mossad and particularly not for half way around the world.

20 minutes ago, Aristides said:

Yes, there has never been such a thing as the country of Palestine.

It was taught in my World History textbook in HS circa early '70s.

I think you should consult some globes from that era and earlier.

Nat Geo 1947

Edited October 9, 2023 by robosmith

[CdnFox]

12 minutes ago, Aristides said:

Will the Republicans get their shit together and provide a functioning House to deal with this? Not counting on it.

Maybe the dems shouldn't have voted the house speaker out for purely partisan reasons?

[Aristides]

22 minutes ago, robosmith said:

The CIA does not have the reputation of the Mossad and particularly not for half way around the world.

It was taught in my World History textbook in HS circa early '70s.

I think you should consult some globes from that era and earlier.

Nat Geo 1947

Mossad didn’t pick up on the Yom Kippur invasion either, they are not infallible.

Palestine is a region, it has never been a country.

Edited October 9, 2023 by Aristides

[robosmith]

1 minute ago, Aristides said:

Palestine is a region, it has never been a country.

Only if recognition by the UN is required to be a "country."

 

Quote

What was Palestine called in Bible times?

Judea

This country received the name of Palestine, from the Philistines, who dwelt on the sea coast: it was called Judea, from Judah: and is termed the Holy Land, being the country where Jesus Christ was born, preached his holy doctrines, confirmed them by miracles, and laid down his life for mankind.