Is U.S. democratic system spinning out of control?

[myata]

It's more than the troubles in one party. Unfortunately, it looks like the entire democratic system is spinning out of control.

How many "the firsts ever" we saw in just a matter of years, out of the centuries of democracy? Can it be good?

A binary political system cannot be dominated by one faction of the society, even the one of the eternal goodness. But in reality, the likely outcome will be shakeups and big surprises. Not like it never happened.

I would appeal to the Republicans of conscience and responsibility to the society; and to Democrats with reason and responsibility to observe and understand the direction in which the system is spinning. It may not be far down this path where all possibility of control, and return to normality will be lost.

The signs are clear. There's no way to pretend we didn't see and understand them.

[Michael Hardner]

24 minutes ago, myata said:

1. It's more than the troubles in one party. Unfortunately, it looks like the entire democratic system is spinning out of control.  How many "the firsts ever" we saw in just a matter of years, out of the centuries of democracy? Can it be good?

2. A binary political system cannot be dominated by one faction of the society, even the one of the eternal goodness. But in reality, the likely outcome will be shakeups and big surprises. Not like it never happened.

3. I would appeal to the Republicans of conscience and responsibility to the society; and to Democrats with reason and responsibility to observe and understand the direction in which the system is spinning. It may not be far down this path where all possibility of control, and return to normality will be lost.

4. The signs are clear. There's no way to pretend we didn't see and understand them.

1. I'm usually suspicious of the 'end times' commentary, although perhaps less so lately.  But, yes, we have been hearing this since the 1960s at least.   
2. Which faction of society dominates in America ?  I don't see any, except for the top 20% who are fighting for control.
3. Ok but undoing things that have been in place for centuries, and I mean eliminating them, could only be achieved with mass violence.  If Trump died tomorrow much of the crisis could be converted to a negotiation forward, so to me that means there's no revolution at hand anytime soon. 
4. Also, Trump's supporters don't have "nothing" so a complete upheaval would risk what they have.

I'm not disagreeing with you, exactly, as you aren't predicting things with certainty ("it looks like...").  And I agree with you on how it seems to be right now.

But there are a couple of big factors to consider when weighing events in historical context:

1) Trump dominated in 2020 among older voters.  They are making more younger voters than older ones.
2) The public sphere has not yet adjusted to the effects of social media, which have really only come into their own as a tool in the last decade.  This period of media instability can't be sustained.
3) Network TV is dying or dead... we will soon be back to a 19th century model of information sharing w.r.t. politics
4) As with FDR, a new approach - one way or the other - can change the landscape with one election.  And nobody can be said to be equipped to absolutely end democracy anytime soon in the USA.

Edited October 4, 2023 by Michael Hardner

[robosmith]

Democracy's grasp has always been tenuous here. Women and blacks were not allowed to vote for decades.

When given the right to vote, there was a lot of sabotage and voter suppression of the black vote.

Part of the suspicion surrounding the 2020 election involved blacks being freed from the suppression of long voting lines in their districts.

And Republicans are very busy trying to undo the drop boxes and vote by mail which mitigated that voter suppression.

Understanding that and vigilance is key to maintaining democracy that Republicans are intent on undermining.

Like In WI where Republicans are already trying to impeach the newly elected Supreme Court justice for fear she will rule against the VERY HEAVILY GERRYMANDERED voting districts which give Republicans an overwhelming advantage.

 

[BeaverFever]

12 hours ago, myata said:

It's more than the troubles in one party. Unfortunately, it looks like the entire democratic system is spinning out of control.

How many "the firsts ever" we saw in just a matter of years, out of the centuries of democracy? Can it be good?

A binary political system cannot be dominated by one faction of the society, even the one of the eternal goodness. But in reality, the likely outcome will be shakeups and big surprises. Not like it never happened.

I would appeal to the Republicans of conscience and responsibility to the society; and to Democrats with reason and responsibility to observe and understand the direction in which the system is spinning. It may not be far down this path where all possibility of control, and return to normality will be lost.

The signs are clear. There's no way to pretend we didn't see and understand them.

It “spun out of control” a long time ago, what are witnessing now is just more of the dominoes toppling as was predicted decades ago.  There are a number of contributing factors:

1) A division of powers between the executive and legislative branches (and within the 2 legislative chambers) which leaves the government effectively leaderless and unaccountable to the public, and beholden to a spiderweb of secret backroom deals  in order accomplish even minor acts of government 

2) An effectively leaderless party system in which each elected politician is essentially a self-employed opportunist beholden to no office in particular and who navigate the above mentioned spiderweb of secret deals for their own private benefit

3) Politicized public serviced. Whereas in most countries, most routine public services are run by qualified non-political public service professionals, America’s federal and state founders made a crucial mistake in deciding that these positions would instead be filled by elected politicians: prosecutors, judges, law enforcement, public sanitation, county comptroller, state insurance commissioner, the manager of the county office that stamps your marriage certificate…the .list is virtually endless and runs the entire spectrum from municipal to federal government. Many of these jobs are obscure and the public doesn’t even know what they let alone understand how to identify a qualified candidate to fill the position.  For many if not most of the lower profile positions, the incumbent politician runs unopposed. Meanwhile the overall proportion of politically appointed staff in US government departments and agencies is also far higher than what is common in many other countries. So the public service in the USA is rife with puppet politicians and appointed party hacks while comparatively few positions are filled through any sort of merit-based hiring process seeking qualified job applicants from the general public. This results in another layer of spiderweb-crawling deal makers who are poorly qualified for the actual position  

4) 40 years of neoliberalism and austerity which has destroyed the quality of life for the working class in countless ways, causing many to become more and more radicalized over time, particularly after the 2008 collapse of the us financial system. You can draw a straight line from the Republicans’ Tea Party movement which formed back then to today’s MAGA extremists  

5) Decades of partisan political gerrymandering that redrew electoral maps along absurd boundaries to produce single-party voting districts that keep the existing incumbent party in power. The result is that politicians no longer had any incentive to be moderate or reach across the aisle and instead are incentivized to be more radical in order to please their single-party constituency, raise money and ensure turnout  The most extensive and effective gerrymandering program was Republicans’ 2010 PROJECT REDMAP which was a coordinated nationwide gerrymandering scheme, the first to be conducted on such a large scale and the first to use advanced technology and data collection techniques to map citizens’ party affiliation right down to the street and even individual household level   The precision and the scale of the Great 2010 Gerrymander as it is called has yet to be undone or duplicated  This is why republicans wield so much more political power today than their actual number of supporters would warrant  Gerrymandering is largely considered the reason that Republicans won the House in the midterm elections  

6)  24-hour cable news which exploits America’s political polarization problem for ratings, with unnecessary dramatization of the news and airing debate shows where people simply scream lies at each other. The most extreme example being Fox News, which although it features less heated debate than the other channels, it is effectively the propaganda arm of the Republican Party and facing billions in settlements for falsely reporting 2020 election lies  

7) The advent of the internet and social media which  allows people to further polarize and only consume “news” that suits their ideology, much of which is false or fraudulent and originates from hostile regimes like China, Russia and Iran.  It also provides politicians with direct access to raise money and generate publicity without going having to through “gatekeepers” in their party or society  

8)The 2011 Citizens United Supreme Court decision championed by Republicans that essentially ruled that Corporations are people and that donating money is equivalent to protected free speech. This opened the floodgates of money into what was already a perverse system of legalized bribery and dark money. Thank to Republicans, “SuperPACs” can raise millions of dollars tax free in a slush fund that can be paid out to almost anyone for almost any purpose with little transparency….hence Melania gets 6-figure payouts from Trump PACs for picking out tablecloths for a fundraising dinner. 
 

The US politician’s job therefore is to raise as much money for the super pacs as possible and to serve the wishes of the largest donors, lest those donors anoint someone else to run for election in the gerrymandered district where the donor’s chosen candidate is almost always guaranteed to win.   For US politicians, extremist policies, screaming that the end is nigh, and headline-grabbing publicity stunts are effective means of remaining highly visible to their donor-masters as well as attracting voter turnout and small donations from constituents.  The good of the country or the welfare of the citizens has absolutely nothing to do with it. 

Edited October 5, 2023 by BeaverFever

[eyeball]

1 hour ago, BeaverFever said:

40 years of neoliberalism and austerity which has destroyed the quality of life for the working class in countless ways, causing many to become more and more radicalized over time, particularly after the 2008 collapse of the us financial system.

I'm reminded of the recent story on how the top 1% in America siphoned off $47 trillion dollars in capital gains from the economy instead of sharing it with workers. 

1 hour ago, BeaverFever said:

You can draw a straight line from the Republicans’ Tea Party movement which formed back then to today’s MAGA extremists

That same line leads straight thru the Tea Partiers to the chuds that followed George Wallace off a cliff. I'm sure most rational Democrats would say good riddance but this split also helped open the door to the economic abuse the 1% inflicted on America.

It's not the End of Times but it probably is the beginning of the 2nd American Civil War. Like their last civil war this one will be exacerbated by yet another grotesque amoral aspect of their economy - something that seems perennially baked in.

 

[WestCanMan]

We've seen the FBI tell hundreds of lies, commit actual crimes to influence federal elections, and carry out smear campaigns against the president.

The illusion of democracy is pretty much gone. 

Of course there are people here who will deny that the FBI even committed crimes, despite the guilty pleas and the fact that the FISA court no longer considers the FBI to be a credible source. 

It's pretty weird that people are chiming in here to "voice their concerns" while at the same time turning a blind eye to the most egregious conduct possible.

What would it take for Beave and MHardner to show some actual concern for current events? 

Gimme a break. The choir is here to give their objective analysis of the preacher's integrity. 

[BeaverFever]

7 minutes ago, WestCanMan said:

What would it take for Beave and MHardner to show some actual concern for current events? 

We have no concerns for your conspiracy bullshit but we do have concerns for actual current events 

[Michael Hardner]

1 hour ago, BeaverFever said:

 

The politician’s job therefore is to raise as much money for the super pacs and to serve the wishes of the largest donors, less they anoint someone else to run for election in the gerrymandered district that the donor’s chosen one is almost always guaranteed to win.   Extremist policies, screaming that only you can save your followers from the coming doom, and headline-grabbing publicity stunts are effective means of being highly visible to your donor-masters as well as attracting voter turnout and small donations from constituents. 

Pretty good summary I would say.  Why is additional gun control still held back despite a majority of voters supporting it?

Because the gun lobby has more votes than human beings do... dollar votes.

4 minutes ago, BeaverFever said:

We have no concerns for your conspiracy bullshit but we do have concerns for actual current events 

Both of us have actually answered the OP with great care and detail, which makes this poster's comment baffling 

[WestCanMan]

1 hour ago, BeaverFever said:

We have no concerns for your conspiracy bullshit but we do have concerns for actual current events 

Was this really a conspiracy, you God-damned liar?

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/former-fbi-lawyer-kevin-clinesmith-pleads-guilty-first-criminal-charge-durham-probe/

Quote

Former FBI lawyer pleads guilty in first criminal charge from Durham probe

Did a FISA court judge really say what I claimed: https://www.cnn.com/2019/12/17/politics/fisa-court-slams-fbi-conduct/index.html

Quote

“The FBI’s handling of the Carter Page applications, as portrayed in the [Office of the inspector general] report, was antithetical to the heightened duty of candor described above. The frequency with which representations made by FBI personnel turned out to be unsupported or contradicted by information in their possession, and with which they withheld information detrimental to their case, calls into question whether information contained in other FBI applications is reliable,” federal Judge Rosemary Collyer wrote in an order from the court published Tuesday.

Bear in mind, she wasn't only referring to the crime that Kevin Clinesmith committed on behalf of the FBI. This part shows that the FBI's fraud goes well beyond a single crime: 

Quote

The frequency with which representations made by FBI personnel turned out to be unsupported or contradicted by information in their possession, and with which they withheld information detrimental to their case,

I know that in addition to being a God-damned liar you're also stupid, so I will spell this out for you:

-when the FBI makes a declarative statement which contradicts information in their own possession, that means that they LIED. 

-when the FBI withholds information that is detrimental to their case that is 1) lying by omission from a layman's POV and 2) a violation of the Brady Rule by US legal standards, for which they can be sanctioned (punished). 

The FBI pimped these lies to the public for years, despite the fact that they had contradictory evidence in their possession.

They also lied about the Hunter laptop, telling social media outlets that "  RUSSIAN DISINFORMATION!!!!!!!  " about a laptop was coming out to get them to suppress that story, even though the FBI knew that it was all 100% true, because they had the laptop in their possession.

Yeah, I know that all of this passes your sniff test because of ultra-low personal standards, but to people who are concerned about the health of a democracy, THE FACT THAT THE FEDERAL POLICE FORCE IN THE US IS AN ENTIRELY CORRUPT POLITICAL OPERATOR is about the worst case scenario. Elections cease to have meaning when they are entirely false, and it's an indisputable fact fact that the FBI is so intent on influencing elections 

 

There's no one on this site who's more susceptible to conspiracy BS than you, I told you all of these things about the FBI in advance but you still spend your evenings in your mom's basement, trying to make all the pieces fit together:

[WestCanMan]

2 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

Both of us have actually answered the OP with great care and detail, which makes this poster's comment baffling 

You definitely would have gotten top marks at a place like Berkeley because you 1) gave a verbose and informed-sounding reply which  2) completely ignored the elephants in the room.

Your whole rant was basically off the topic of "Is America's democracy spinning out of control". 

1) An alarming number of recent presidential elections have been investigated by the FBI or decided by the Supreme Court, with both parties making major accusations against each other. 

In 2016 the Dems tried to make the case that the election was illegitimate, the FBI launched a highly publicized investigation based on what we now know to be false evidence and accusations from the Dems'. 

The Dems, as a party, lied about the legitimacy of the 2016 election for years on national TV and CNN et al backed them on it. 

In 2020 the Republicans tried to make the case that the Dems cheated on the election, they were shouted down very quickly by officials in several states. 

The Republicans' accusations make a lot of sense based on the Dems' extensive history of recent cheating, but those election challenges were nixed almost instantly. Then there was a riot about the legitimacy of that election right at Capitol Hill. 

1n 2000 Gore challenged the election that he lost to Bush: it came down to a Supreme Court ruling.

It honestly looks really bad for your democracy when you can't even have a peaceful transition of power. At the end of the day, tens of millions of people end up feeling like the election was unfair regardless of who 'wins'.

2) Election cheating is rampant now. The Dems were caught cheating during their primaries, when CNN gave Hillary debate questions. They were also caught conspiring against Bernie Sanders in their primary election. Then they got caught presenting false evidence to the FBI of Russian collusion, and they did that by getting a lawyer to drop off their own disinformation while pretending to be doing it as a "concerned citizen" instead of the stooge for hire that he was.

Those are just the most egregious instances of recent, proven cheating, but there is no doubt a plethora of others. 

3) The FBI has been CAUGHT lying about the former president, holding a show trial against him, committing crimes in that trial, and influencing the 2020 election by lying about it as well. Not one bit of that is up for debate. The US actually has a rogue federal police force hell bent on influencing elections. 

 

If those things happened in Nicaragua or Colombia you'd instantly chalk it up to "the normal state of affairs in Banana republics" but it's the USA we're talking about. It's the Dems and the Grand Ol' Party, not the Sandinistas and the Social Party of National Unity. It's the FBI pleading guilty to committing crimes, not the National Police of Colombia. 

It's as serious as cancer, but it is just being used as another opportunity to increase division. 

 

[myata]

So is it past the point of no return then? When partisan division reaches the level that the main interest and objective is to win and hold on the power as opposed to working for the interests of the society, what could be the way forward?

Some parallels to Canada here, where the same effect is playing out though in a different way. Is it an inevitable result of the binary system? It naturally creates partisan division, and once it's past a certain point of break, the parties will be looking only to exploit the system to their advantage and for little else.

It's not about the great words of the fathers or vile intents. It is the environment and the incentives that engender this behavior: naturally and predictably.

[eyeball]

3 hours ago, myata said:

So is it past the point of no return then?

In the US? I think so.

4 hours ago, myata said:

Some parallels to Canada here, where the same effect is playing out though in a different way. Is it an inevitable result of the binary system?

I don't think so, not with such a spectacular example of how not to behave right next door.  I think what is inevitable is that Canada will become a destination for refugees. 

[Nationalist]

7 hours ago, eyeball said:

In the US? I think so.

I don't think so, not with such a spectacular example of how not to behave right next door.  I think what is inevitable is that Canada will become a destination for refugees. 

I have always loved Canada. I still love the nation but the last few years its become Little India.

I'm gonna retire in a couple years. My plan was always to find a sleepy little town on a lake and retire there.

Now? Is there a real Canadian little town left?

[Rebound]

2 minutes ago, Nationalist said:

I have always loved Canada. I still love the nation but the last few years its become Little India.

I'm gonna retire in a couple years. My plan was always to find a sleepy little town on a lake and retire there.

Now? Is there a real Canadian little town left?

What do you mean, “Little India”?

[Deluge]

On 10/4/2023 at 6:08 AM, myata said:

It's more than the troubles in one party. Unfortunately, it looks like the entire democratic system is spinning out of control.

How many "the firsts ever" we saw in just a matter of years, out of the centuries of democracy? Can it be good?

A binary political system cannot be dominated by one faction of the society, even the one of the eternal goodness. But in reality, the likely outcome will be shakeups and big surprises. Not like it never happened.

I would appeal to the Republicans of conscience and responsibility to the society; and to Democrats with reason and responsibility to observe and understand the direction in which the system is spinning. It may not be far down this path where all possibility of control, and return to normality will be lost.

The signs are clear. There's no way to pretend we didn't see and understand them.

Normally I would agree with you on this point, but the Left has gotten out of control, and Matt Gaetz is fighting for the life of the GOP. Despite what most seem to think, the Right has been giving up ground for decades. We can't have it. 

[myata]

4 minutes ago, Deluge said:

Matt Gaetz is fighting for the life of the GOP.

This is a regular, predictable and expected product of extreme partisanship: to survive we need to move out ever further, polarize and stretch the society. Very obviously it won't have a good ending. But the problem is that in the political system the priorities and incentives are almost exactly  the opposite, and in that little world it makes all the sense. However, it won't stop there. As the events show, it won't rest until it takes the whole society with it.

[Deluge]

2 minutes ago, myata said:

This is a regular, predictable and expected product of extreme partisanship: to survive we need to move out ever further, polarize and stretch the society. Very obviously it won't have a good ending. But the problem is that in the political system the priorities and incentives are almost exactly  the opposite, and in that little world it makes all the sense. However, it won't stop there. As the events show, it won't rest until it takes the whole society with it.

It needs a shove or two to the Right. Centrism can't work effectively if the center line keeps moving left. 

[WestCanMan]

14 hours ago, myata said:

So is it past the point of no return then? When partisan division reaches the level that the main interest and objective is to win and hold on the power as opposed to working for the interests of the society, what could be the way forward?

You're not supposed to notice. You're supposed to STFU and just nod your head when the disinformants on CNN and MSNBC (CBC, Global and CTV) tell you what to do or how to feel about an issue.

50% of the people on this forum will tell you that "It's not a big deal that CNN s giving debate questions to their chosen leaders, and that the FBI is committing cute little crimes on behalf of a political party."

They don't understand that you get what you pay for. It's not the Republicans who lose. Democracy dies in WashPo's darkness.

 

[Nationalist]

3 hours ago, Rebound said:

What do you mean, “Little India”?

I mean we have allowed a flood of Indian people into Canada.

[WestCanMan]

4 minutes ago, myata said:

This is a regular, predictable and expected product of extreme partisanship: to survive we need to move out ever further, polarize and stretch the society. Very obviously it won't have a good ending. But the problem is that in the political system the priorities and incentives are almost exactly  the opposite, and in that little world it makes all the sense. However, it won't stop there. As the events show, it won't rest until it takes the whole society with it.

How is "Matt Gaetz is fighting for the life of the GOP" an example of 'extreme partisanship'?

It's normal for politicians to fight/struggle/challenge within their own party. That's the essence of democracy. It's healthy. If Matt Gaetz's plan for the GOP sucks then the majority of voters get to decide.

What's unhealthy is for the MSM to lie about what he's saying/doing. Or for the Dems to sick the IRS on him, or the FBI, and for some Americans to be ok with a bogus investigation just because they don't like Matt Gaetz.  

Politicians like Gaetz need to babble. AOC needs to be allowed to babble too. Then, ideally, the media would cover it all objectively. I think that we would all agree that nothing they say will be covered objectively on any news outlets in the US. 

[myata]

13 minutes ago, WestCanMan said:

They don't understand that you get what you pay for. It's not the Republicans who lose. Democracy dies in WashPo's darkness.

We, citizens shouldn't allow abuse or misuse of power by any individual or a party. When democracy is undermined, everyone will end up worse and quite possibly (history knows examples) in trouble. When political system is in a dead end, it may be up to the citizens to prevent it from taking the whole society down with it. The story of German fascism should give us warnings about such events.

[BeaverFever]

4 hours ago, Nationalist said:

I have always loved Canada. I still love the nation but the last few years its become Little India.

I'm gonna retire in a couple years. My plan was always to find a sleepy little town on a lake and retire there.

Now? Is there a real Canadian little town left?

Your idea of Canada and “real Canadian towns” doesn’t include people of Indian descent?

[Nationalist]

6 minutes ago, BeaverFever said:

Your idea of Canada and “real Canadian towns” doesn’t include people of Indian descent?

The demographics of this country are being changed faster that you can say "Pixie-Dust". It's being done on purpose. That I do not like.

[Rebound]

2 hours ago, Nationalist said:

I mean we have allowed a flood of Indian people into Canada.

Didn't you allow a flood of Russian people into Canada as well?

[WestCanMan]

37 minutes ago, Rebound said:

Didn't you allow a flood of Russian people into Canada as well?

Huh? I never heard of that, so the answer is probably no...