Mass absences break out at London schools as Pride flag flies

[Michael Hardner]

1 minute ago, bcsapper said:

1) Normailizes or acknowledges?  It is what it is.  It's fairly obvious too.  Tribes are real.

2) I'm sure you can find polls that say the opposite, too.  Real Republicans, not RINOs, of course.

3) 4) I'm not particularly happy about it either.  But as the world gets hotter, livable space shrinks, the population increases and the water gets scarcer, don't look for it to get any better.

1) I suppose if you say you're using this method provisionally then sure.  As long as you don't define politics that way.
2) Well, I am assuming the polls are real here.
3) 4)  It is getting better and it will continue to get better.

We are assessing the state of the world via a "screaming box".  I'm sure if you watch North Korean TV you would feel like things are great over there too.

We are talking on the angernet - everything is sh!t right ?  Well it's not so.  There's more prosperity, better health, more understanding and more cooperation internationally than before.  

[suds]

1 hour ago, Perspektiv said:

I don't understand how I need to fly a flag to state I won't discriminate.

My workplace has a zero tolerance approach to bullying and discrimination. 

I don't understand how one must fly an LGBTQ flag to say this.

Teach kids to respect each other. One doesn't need to be force fed sexuality and the like, to be a decent human.

I agree completely. Other than a bit of virtue signalling on the school's part what does it actually accomplish? It also creates a problem for next year on whether the flag goes up or down. I would see it as counter productive if it teaches kids to see others as belonging to different groups instead of as individuals. Inclusiveness can be attained by celebrating our differences but might be more easily attained by celebrating what we all share in common. Flags don't teach kids to respect one another.

[blackbird]

51 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

Your ideas are suspect because they include your delusions based on your imaginary friend. 

Here is a thought I bet you have not considered.

Quote

"Gravity, electromagnetism, the strong nuclear force, and the weak nuclear force, and the whole plethora of subatomic particles are alien to the world of absolute nothing -- the 'before' of the universe.  We have lived so long with these matter and laws that we forget that they are exceedingly strange to a world of absolute nothing - for out of nothing, nothing comes.  Objectively speaking, can nothing prefabricate these complex atomic structures from nothing, and then shackle them with even more complex laws of nature governed by even more complex mathematical equations to which they must subserviently obey?  Is it not perfectly logical that the more improbable an event, the more it points to a design and a designer?    Unquote   -  Darwin's Universe

I think I must ask who is living in delusions?  One who believes it required an intelligent designer we call God to create this complex and intricate universe or the person who thinks belief in such a God is believing in an "imaginary friend".  I think the answer is clear to anyone who looks around a little at the universe, it's complexity, and functioning, realizes it just couldn't come into existence from nothing or without an extremely powerful, intelligent designer.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Michael Hardner said:

1) I suppose if you say you're using this method provisionally then sure.  As long as you don't define politics that way.
2) Well, I am assuming the polls are real here.
3) 4)  It is getting better and it will continue to get better.

We are assessing the state of the world via a "screaming box".  I'm sure if you watch North Korean TV you would feel like things are great over there too.

We are talking on the angernet - everything is sh!t right ?  Well it's not so.  There's more prosperity, better health, more understanding and more cooperation internationally than before.  

1) It was never about defining politics.  It was about which side tolerates LGBGT flags in schools.  I stand by my assessment.

2) There are a lot of Republicans.

3) 4) I disagree.  I don't think it's getting better.  I think it's getting worse and will continue to get worse.  Obviously individual experience will vary, but generally...

I am assessing the world via a lot of things, all as sane as I can find.  I might give the more wingnut posters on here the time of day when they don't deserve it but that's just for the fun of it.  I don't take them seriously, and I would know if I was watching North Korean TV, and switch the channel.

I'm not talking about the angernet.  I'm talking on the angernet.  More prosperity, better health, more understanding and more cooperation internationally than before for who, exactly? 

[eyeball]

1 minute ago, suds said:

Other than a bit of virtue signalling on the school's part what does it actually accomplish?

What's wrong with signifying that intolerance won't be tolerated?

Why should anyone waste their time trying to be nice to people who are determined to be intolerant?

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, blackbird said:

Here is a thought I bet you have not considered.

Quote

"Gravity, electromagnetism, the strong nuclear force, and the weak nuclear force, and the whole plethora of subatomic particles are alien to the world of absolute nothing -- the 'before' of the universe.  We have lived so long with these matter and laws that we forget that they are exceedingly strange to a world of absolute nothing - for out of nothing, nothing comes.  Objectively speaking, can nothing prefabricate these complex atomic structures from nothing, and then shackle them with even more complex laws of nature governed by even more complex mathematical equations to which they must subserviently obey?  Is it not perfectly logical that the more improbable an event, the more it points to a design and a designer?    Unquote   -  Darwin's Universe

I think I must ask who is living in delusions?  One who believes it required an intelligent designer we call God to create this complex and intricate universe or the person who thinks belief in such a God is believing in an "imaginary friend".  I think the answer is clear to anyone who looks around a little at the universe, it's complexity, and functioning, realizes it just couldn't come into existence from nothing or without an extremely powerful, intelligent designer.

Considered it.  Dismissed it.  No matter how fantastic the idea of the universe existing is, the idea it was created is infinitely more fantastic.

[Michael Hardner]

6 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

1) It was never about defining politics.  It was about which side tolerates LGBGT flags in schools.  I stand by my assessment.

2) There are a lot of Republicans.

3) 4) I disagree.  I don't think it's getting better.  I think it's getting worse and will continue to get worse.  Obviously individual experience will vary, but generally...

5)  I would know if I was watching North Korean TV, and switch the channel.

6) I'm not talking about the angernet.  I'm talking on the angernet.  More prosperity, better health, more understanding and more cooperation internationally than before for who, exactly? 

1) I will of course agree that the anti-Freedom wing of the new populist right seems to have taken up anti-LGBTQ+ because they have been told to by their tribal leaders.  But I also bristle when people say 'Christians' hate gay folks.  We don't.  It's anti-Christian
2) Polling works.  It is real.
3) 4) Big topic and this is one that for sure transcends left/right... other thread.
5) Switch the channel to FOX ?  CBC ? Are either options 'truth' ?  No.
6) For most of the world.
 

[Zeitgeist]

3 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

Inclusion is a community value that needs to be taught, in a world where alien forces strive to drive us apart.  The west was conceived as a pluralistic confederation, probably the foundation of such an approach to "publics".

There is nothing wrong with inclusion, it's a good thing.  

This issue isn’t inclusion.  Everyone is loved.  As usual you’re being disingenuous.  The concern is the publicly funded education system taking a stance that affirms certain sexual lifestyle choices with symbols and proclamations that run counter to many families’ religious beliefs and to other human rights, such as women’s rights in the case of trans women competing in women’s sports and being admitted to women’s private spaces.  Schools are not the places for such ideological indoctrination.  

[Michael Hardner]

23 minutes ago, Contrarian said:

When discussing moral aspects, I think it is crucial to critically evaluate the practical implications and challenges of inclusion. Ignoring reality does not help one's cause.  

I think we already did that in the last 2 posts.

[Michael Hardner]

21 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

1. Everyone is loved.  As usual you’re being disingenuous.  
2. The concern is the publicly funded education system taking a stance that affirms certain sexual lifestyle choices with symbols and proclamations that run counter to many families’ religious beliefs and to other human rights
3. ... such as women’s rights in the case of trans women competing in women’s sports and being admitted to women’s private spaces.  
4. Schools are not the places for such ideological indoctrination.  

1.  You tell me "everyone" is being loved, and accuse me of being disingenuous ?
2.  The 'religious rights' thing is a red herring.  We have separated religion from education wherever possible, and this is another tenet of that project.  "Affirming" is a dodgy word.  Do I 'affirm' hetersexuality by showing a picture of Mr. and Mrs. Claus ?  
3. Flying the Pride Flag says nothing about what your thoughts are regarding trans women in sports or public spaces.
4. Ideology is in everything.  If you don't agree then you are part of the dominant ideology.

[ExFlyer]

1 hour ago, bcsapper said:

The parents did keep their kids out of school.  My point is that they weren't left wing parents.  They were conservative right wing religious nutjobs who belong alongside some of the posters on here when it comes to tolerance.

I support individual bathrooms where any gender can take a leak.  I am appalled that a school board is disallowing police officers in uniform from entering the schools unless on official business.

You cannot say whether the parents were politically left or right. That is an assumption made through your politically driven mindset.

You are saying left wing liberals are pro gay? Again, an assumption. People are people and their personal convictions are not driven by political leanings, they are driven by their own personal perceptions and feelings.

As for police being banned form schools, that is also a social/cultural issue. The vocal folks feel the police are vindictive and targeting certain social sectors and think their kids are afraid.

 

[suds]

38 minutes ago, eyeball said:

What's wrong with signifying that intolerance won't be tolerated?

Why should anyone waste their time trying to be nice to people who are determined to be intolerant?

So, if intolerance won't be tolerated.... what do you propose to do with the 1/3 of the school (and their parents) who didn't go to school that day?

[Michael Hardner]

11 minutes ago, Contrarian said:

How do you tell the parents of these students to send them to school? I am serious, what if these parents insist of not sending them to school, do you think the school should move towards disciplinary actions? 

I didn't see anything saying that this action was persisting.   If so, then it's a problem but I don't think that the school should withdraw from a traditional and positive value such as tolerance because some people don't like it.

The new populists become hysterical if you put a trans person on a beer can, and so the beer company withdraws the beer can.  Seems ok with them.  The new populists also become hysterical if there's a gay character in a movie or something and they blame the 'woke mob'.

I would rather move past making morality the domain of consumer products, or movies and just talk simply.  Do we tolerate gay people ?  Few would say we don't.  How do we want to say that ?  A flag seems pretty innocuous.

 

[Michael Hardner]

13 minutes ago, suds said:

So, if intolerance won't be tolerated.... what do you propose to do with the 1/3 of the school (and their parents) who didn't go to school that day?

That's their problem, really.  If you abstract the problem and take out the specifics of which moral code, which symbol, which group we're accommodating and which we're expecting to be inclusive then you would come up with something like a principle.

Here's one try:

Any public school necessarily holds community 'values' and those attending the school are expected to understand that these values are a foundation to what is being taught.

So if you are a Christian who thinks Hallowe'en is evil - you might want to keep your kid home in October.
IF you are a Muslim who opposes Music, you will have to fill out late slips every day so that you can drop your kid off after the National Anthem.
If you hate a rainbow flag, then you may have to cover your kids' eyes as you march them into the school in the morning.

 

[Michael Hardner]

1 minute ago, Contrarian said:

1. ... if this action keeps persisting, as you can see the "cultural war" is intensifying,
2. Florida leading the charge, 
3. How should the schools respond specifically? 

1. Don't you think common sense might take hold ?  
2. Ignore alien orders.
3. Ignore the parents.  As a one day protest, that's fine.  I doubt 1/3 of the parents are going to keep their kids home forever without the state babysitters to take care of the kids while they're at work.

[TreeBeard]

2 hours ago, blackbird said:

Simple go back to basic Christian principles of love for thy neighbour and respect for individuals.  Everyone should be treated the same, with respect.  No need to single out one group for special treatment as they are doing now.  Just teach respect and love for every individual.

I’m glad you would love your gay married neighbours and wish them to be treated equally to the straight married neighbours!  

[I am Groot]

4 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. Ok... well maybe we should start with the Irish ?  Sorry but these things come up in a certain way based on how the zeitgeist goes.
2. Tolerance for different religions, primarily.  By extension this meant tolerance for different moral codes, including cultural differences.
3. Flying a flag isn't flaunting anything.  It's saying, basically, we won't hate you if you are this way.  

What are the odds the same people adamant about flying Pride flags would be willing to fly a conservative flag and tolerate, much less respect conservative values and moral codes?

[I am Groot]

2 hours ago, ExFlyer said:

The schools and students in question are in elementary schools. I suggest to you the parents kept kids out of school.

I suggest to you that ad it been high schools, the older students are far more "tolerant" and would have supported their queer friends.

 

[Legato]

1 hour ago, blackbird said:

Here is a thought I bet you have not considered.

Quote

"Gravity, electromagnetism, the strong nuclear force, and the weak nuclear force, and the whole plethora of subatomic particles are alien to the world of absolute nothing -- the 'before' of the universe.  We have lived so long with these matter and laws that we forget that they are exceedingly strange to a world of absolute nothing - for out of nothing, nothing comes.  Objectively speaking, can nothing prefabricate these complex atomic structures from nothing, and then shackle them with even more complex laws of nature governed by even more complex mathematical equations to which they must subserviently obey?  Is it not perfectly logical that the more improbable an event, the more it points to a design and a designer?    Unquote   -  Darwin's Universe

I think I must ask who is living in delusions?  One who believes it required an intelligent designer we call God to create this complex and intricate universe or the person who thinks belief in such a God is believing in an "imaginary friend".  I think the answer is clear to anyone who looks around a little at the universe, it's complexity, and functioning, realizes it just couldn't come into existence from nothing or without an extremely powerful, intelligent designer.

So who or what created God?

[ExFlyer]

Just now, I am Groot said:

 

Point?

The topic is an elementary school in London Ontario.

[Michael Hardner]

17 minutes ago, I am Groot said:

What are the odds the same people adamant about flying Pride flags would be willing to fly a conservative flag and tolerate, much less respect conservative values and moral codes?

You mean at home ?

I don't know.  I guess I would.  

Do you think it's ok to fly an NDP banner at school ?

Seems like not the same thing.

[I am Groot]

3 minutes ago, ExFlyer said:

Point?

The topic is an elementary school in London Ontario.

Your point to which I replied was that high school Muslims would be more tolerant. This shows that isn't necessarily the case. And from what I understand most of the Muslims in Belgium come from Morocco, a relatively more tolerant Muslim state compared to say, Pakistan or Afghanistan.

[I am Groot]

5 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

You mean at home ?

I don't know.  I guess I would.  

Do you think it's ok to fly an NDP banner at school ?

Seems like not the same thing.

I said conservative not Conservative Any sort of symbol or belief that evokes a conservative view or mindset or historical occasion. Do you think these schools would celebrate Sir John A MacDonald, for example? Would they fly the flag under which Canadians fought in the first and second world wars on remembrance day? Would they celebrate Canada's historical ties with the British or the Royal family? Would they tolerate and teach tolerance for conservative beliefs in either morality or traditions?

[Perspektiv]

1 hour ago, suds said:

Flags don't teach kids to respect one another.

No, but they allow for speech and morals to be manipulated under guide of inclusion. No way a government would do that. Reward good behavior and punishment for what is deemed to veer from the acceptable, in terms of speech and behavior. That only happens in China. Right? Right? 

Brands like Disney push their agenda in the west, but you won't see any of it in countries where it will hurt their bottom line. 

I see it no differently than Nike pushing for gender nonconforming ads and speech and slamming those that don't comply, yet you won't even see an off color in their Qatar logos. Do you care about inclusion, or only when your bottom line benefits from it?

Why is this? 

Same companies that have sweat shops and exploitative practices are pushing morals. Thats like a crackhead teaching you about abstinence or investment.

Why is this?

I just see the thought police. Control their mind, you control their bodies. 

Flags don't do a thing. 

When I see people push flags, but call for the death and doxxing for people they disagree with, it makes it that much harder to believe these people are genuinely seeking inclusion.

[ExFlyer]

2 minutes ago, I am Groot said:

Your point to which I replied was that high school Muslims would be more tolerant. This shows that isn't necessarily the case. And from what I understand most of the Muslims in Belgium come from Morocco, a relatively more tolerant Muslim state compared to say, Pakistan or Afghanistan.

My point? I never said any group was more tolerant. I questioned why one gets more than another.

What goes on in Belgium is irrelevant to here. As an aside, I was in Antwerp during Pride Week a few years ago and it was a rip roaring festival. Very tolerant. I suspect your example was a one group vs another for whatever reasons.