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Dear boomers: I’m a millennial, 36, and it looks like I will never get to retire


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19 hours ago, DMGregoire said:

That's quite a leap.  There has been increasing globalization of economy and cheaper wages paid by other countries.  More outsourcing of what was once North American goods and services to cheaper markets.

 

Also isn't it interesting that the top 1% of income earners earnings are skyrocketing vs the rest of the income earners.  1-13-20pov-f2.png

 

Big business lobbyists and corrupt government officials are having a heyday making big bucks while we little peon wage slaves blame eachother and infight.

The "top 1% of income earners" have always been the top 1% and will continue to be.

Fact is, the top 1% are being searched for, contracted for and offered those salaries to run the corporations. They do not set their salary, they are given it to work for the corporations.

We little peons need be cognizant of those big corporations for providing jobs and products for us to consume.

Edited by ExFlyer
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1 hour ago, ExFlyer said:

 

Fact is, the top 1% are being searched for, contracted for and offered those salaries to run the corporations. They do not set their salary, they are given it to work for the corporations.

Not all managers are in the 1%.  The wealthiest of the wealthy don't get a paycheck.

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59 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

Not all managers are in the 1%.  The wealthiest of the wealthy don't get a paycheck.

Never said they were.

The response was to a poster mentioning the top 1% earners.

The thing is, this forum is obsessed with who makes how  much money.

 

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Age 35 is still young enough to be able to retire at 65 in my opinion if one has a complete plan and follows it:

1.  You have a job that pays enough or has a pension plan that will provide the pension.

2.  If you don't have such a job, make a plan to get the skills or education that will enable you to get such a job.

3.  Make a plan on how you could do it.  It would require finding out if that kind of well-paying job would be available once you obtained the training or education for it.  Is the job permanent or going to last?  Also one needs to consider the location where he would have to work.  Real estate in the big cities is very expensive.  That should be considered in the plan.  The bottom line is it requires some investigation and planning ahead.

4.  If you can live in a place other than a big city it might help because of the high cost of real estate in the big cities.  Going further north sometimes might be an option to find lower cost real estate.  The availability of jobs in the location or area you plan to live must be considered as well.  Minimum wage jobs will not do it.  It requires some kind of skill and training for a better-paying job.

These are just the thoughts from someone who doesn't have to do it any more.  

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5 minutes ago, DMGregoire said:

Spoken as a true blind mindless peon worshipping to the religion of capitalism unable to see there are other solutions.

 

Oh you peon LOL Only peons whine about how little they have and cry about others that are better off.

I speak from reality, not some imaginary world. I worship no one and I also do not begrudge anyone from getting the most they can.

Other solutions? To what?

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2 minutes ago, blackbird said:

Age 35 is still young enough to be able to retire at 65 in my opinion if one has a complete plan and follows it:

1.  You have a job that pays enough or has a pension plan that will provide the pension.

2.  If you don't have such a job, make a plan to get the skills or education that will enable you to get such a job.

3.  Make a plan on how you could do it.  It would require finding out if that kind of well-paying job would be available once you obtained the training or education for it.  Is the job permanent or going to last?  Also one needs to consider the location where he would have to work.  Real estate in the big cities is very expensive.  That should be considered in the plan.  The bottom line is it requires some investigation and planning ahead.

4.  If you can live in a place other than a big city it might help because of the high cost of real estate in the big cities.  Going further north sometimes might be an option to find lower cost real estate.  The availability of jobs in the location or area you plan to live must be considered as well.  Minimum wage jobs will not do it.  It requires some kind of skill and training for a better-paying job.

These are just the thoughts from someone who doesn't have to do it any more.  

Well said and right on.

Bottom line is it is your responsibility to take care of yourself now and in the future. No one else cares about you.

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Any young person that's gets a job with the Feds or lets say,Ont hydro or a union trades job. You need to get on your knees and kiss a boomers butt for the very generous pay and benefits you are now receiving. ? 

Edited by PIK
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2 hours ago, blackbird said:

Age 35 is still young enough to be able to retire at 65 in my opinion if one has a complete plan and follows it:

1.  You have a job that pays enough or has a pension plan that will provide the pension.

2.  If you don't have such a job, make a plan to get the skills or education that will enable you to get such a job.

3.  Make a plan on how you could do it.  It would require finding out if that kind of well-paying job would be available once you obtained the training or education for it.  Is the job permanent or going to last?  Also one needs to consider the location where he would have to work.  Real estate in the big cities is very expensive.  That should be considered in the plan.  The bottom line is it requires some investigation and planning ahead.

4.  If you can live in a place other than a big city it might help because of the high cost of real estate in the big cities.  Going further north sometimes might be an option to find lower cost real estate.  The availability of jobs in the location or area you plan to live must be considered as well.  Minimum wage jobs will not do it.  It requires some kind of skill and training for a better-paying job.

These are just the thoughts from someone who doesn't have to do it any more.  

#1 is the key in this new world. That company pension.

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3 factors: cost of living, opportunity, hard work.  Since one has no control over the first two factors, all that one can really do is try to find the overlap between what one wants to do, what one has the ability to do, and what jobs will pay someone enough to have a desirable lifestyle.  It often means taking the necessary training and getting the necessary experience to achieve a level of competence or expertise that makes someone highly employable.  The dream is to make good money doing what you love, but at minimum, don’t get a job you hate or that makes the majority of your time unpleasant.  Once you have that reasonably good job, make wise investments that grow your money, as the economy and government policies are out of your hands.  Work hard but enjoy your life.

Take time for family and friends, give back to the community, keep fit, seek guidance from good mentors, have integrity, and be appreciative.  Rest and relaxation are key to productivity, which seems counterintuitive sometimes, but it’s true.  Don’t burn yourself out.  You need to be strong and calm to be of any value to others.

I do think the younger generations have to be very savvy about where they choose to live, planning for retirement, and finding smart life hacks or side hustles.  Maybe make sure the first home you buy has a room you can rent out. Those added incomes make a lot of difference over time.

Getting a 20% down payment for even a tiny apartment outside the city is a big foot in the door.  Just keep selling and buying up, until you have the place you want, but it takes time and sacrifice.  Not paying capital gains on a primary residence is huge.  Owning property is a big move up.  

Edited by Zeitgeist
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Everyone is a product of their time, for millennials to claim they would be any different if they were born boomers or boomers would be any different if they had been born millennials is laughable. This intergenerational mud slinging is ridiculous and accomplishes nothing.

Boomers did have to deal with 20% interest rates but a home cost three or four years gross salary, not 15 or 20 like today. Still, I can remember people walking away from their homes in the mid eighties because they had bought at the peak and their homes were now worth less than their mortgages which they now couldn't afford because interest rates had jumped 13% in the five years since they bought. Deja vu all over again. 

No computers, internet or cell phones to spend money on back then. All of which are essential for most people today. Most people only had one tv and one car back then. Lots of money to spend on things these days that didn't exist then. Some are necessities.

We were fortunate enough that my wife could stay home when our kids were young but a vacation was two weeks camping, not Disneyland or Maui. Eating out was McDonalds a couple of times a month  and a nice restaurant on birthdays and anniversaries. We also moved across the country and back and I went off shore twice to stay employed. I made sure I was never unemployed and never burned a bridge with an employer even if I didn't like working for them.

Personal debt was treated as an enemy that must be defeated, not encouraged with artificially low interest rates. We probably got that from our parents who went through a depression and a world war. Not because we were smarter. Paying off the mortgage was a #1 priority but I get that this is just a dream for many with today's home prices in and around our major cities.

We have also lost a lot of good jobs in things like manufacturing because of globalization and have become an economy heavily reliant on service industries and real estate. Is that a result of companies wanting to make more money or people wanting cheaper stuff? It's both. 

Finger pointing might make a person feel good but accomplishes nothing.

 

Edited by Aristides
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4 hours ago, ExFlyer said:

Easy to throw out rhetoric but a bit more difficult to justify and make your point?

Especially to someone who's being disingenuous.

I mean c'mon, you really don't understand what a tilted playing field is in the context of government, influence and lobbying? Okay so I get it that you may not know a lot about the history of a good portion of the Weston family's fortune and DFO but Galen Weston is not the regular working schmoe you make him out to be.

Interesting how increasing wages usually cause the Bank of Canada to cluck about inflation and increasing interest rates. If that's the case the wealth and income gap are all the Bank might really need to track.

Trying to keep this gap or the rate at which it expands more or less balanced would probably do a lot more to make millennials feel like they have a better chance or at least a more similar chance as everyone else.

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9 hours ago, eyeball said:

Especially to someone who's being disingenuous.

I mean c'mon, you really don't understand what a tilted playing field is in the context of government, influence and lobbying? Okay so I get it that you may not know a lot about the history of a good portion of the Weston family's fortune and DFO but Galen Weston is not the regular working schmoe you make him out to be.

Interesting how increasing wages usually cause the Bank of Canada to cluck about inflation and increasing interest rates. If that's the case the wealth and income gap are all the Bank might really need to track.

Trying to keep this gap or the rate at which it expands more or less balanced would probably do a lot more to make millennials feel like they have a better chance or at least a more similar chance as everyone else.

Disingenuous about what?? I lived through the 70's and 80's. I know inflation and high interest and increased wages.

Level playing field for who? What? When and why?

Never said Weston was a regular working schmoe. I did say his brad contracted him and gave him a wage they felt was commensurate to the job. I suggest you have a job that pays you commensurate to your skills. If that is not enough, then I suggest you improve yourself.

Wage increase affect the economy. Higher wages = higher costs. Inflation is a direct result.

Millennials, like all the generations before them have to learn to live within their means and prioritize their wants and desires. 2 cars and 2 vacations, designer clothes and restaurants every other day or, do with less and save it for a down payment.  BTW, owning a house is not and never has been a right. Millions have lived in rentals their entire life.

Millennials have the same chance as every generation before them, they just prioritize differently. Not saying all millennials have priority issues, just as not all previous generations but those that made wise decisions, did OK

Average wage in Canada is now $70K . Most families are 2 income as opposed to Boomer generation which were single income. Average house price in Canada is a touch over $600K, knowing that the major cities skew the price.

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7 minutes ago, ExFlyer said:

 

Millennials have the same chance as every generation before them, they just prioritize differently.  

Average wage in Canada is now $70K . Most families are 2 income as opposed to Boomer generation which were single income. Average house price in Canada is a touch over $600K, knowing that the major cities skew the price.

I can't resolve these statements.

It seems to me that the economy is not working for millennials.

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25 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

What does that mean?

Shouldn't the economy generally improve the life situation if workers over time?

Huh? What is your question or point?

The economy is driven by many factors and only one, and a small one, is workers and then workers wages.

Also, I said "Or is it that millennials cannot work within their economy?" meaning, can they not live within their own means.

Not all economic change improves your life, high interest rates change the economy, do they improve your life?

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16 minutes ago, ExFlyer said:

1. Huh? What is your question or point?

2. Also, I said "Or is it that millennials cannot work within their economy?" meaning, can they not live within their own means.

3. Not all economic change improves your life.  

1. From above, my question is: "Shouldn't the economy generally improve the life situation if workers over time?"

2.  When we're discussing the economic plight (that is ... plight) of millennials, does it add any value to say "they should live within their means" ?  I would say not, because that phrase applies to all economies over all time.   

So the answer here might be "no" but it still sidesteps the larger question of what is going on within the economy.

3. I concur.  Case in point, the changes we have seen over the last generation.

-----

Here are some stats:

In Toronto, you need to have $240,000 income to get a mortgage on an average priced home.

https://www.blogto.com/real-estate-toronto/2022/12/how-much-money-you-need-make-afford-house-toronto-now/

I couldn't find median income but average HOUSEHOLD income for Toronto is just over $78,000 in 2023

https://www.insurdinary.ca/average-household-income-in-canada/ 

-----

What are some of the factors that influence real estate prices in Canada ?

-Interest rates
-Taxation policy
-Rental policies
-Foreign investment rules
-Immigration policy
-Environmental and land use policy
-Demographics
-Market factors - supply and demand for housing


 

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1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. From above, my question is: "Shouldn't the economy generally improve the life situation if workers over time?"

2.  When we're discussing the economic plight (that is ... plight) of millennials, does it add any value to say "they should live within their means" ?  I would say not, because that phrase applies to all economies over all time.   

So the answer here might be "no" but it still sidesteps the larger question of what is going on within the economy.

3. I concur.  Case in point, the changes we have seen over the last generation.

-----

Here are some stats:

In Toronto, you need to have $240,000 income to get a mortgage on an average priced home.

https://www.blogto.com/real-estate-toronto/2022/12/how-much-money-you-need-make-afford-house-toronto-now/

I couldn't find median income but average HOUSEHOLD income for Toronto is just over $78,000 in 2023

https://www.insurdinary.ca/average-household-income-in-canada/ 

-----

What are some of the factors that influence real estate prices in Canada ?

-Interest rates
-Taxation policy
-Rental policies
-Foreign investment rules
-Immigration policy
-Environmental and land use policy
-Demographics
-Market factors - supply and demand for housing


 

The economy does not always "improve" the life situation if workers". As can be seen now, the economy is actually quite good but some people are not living up to their expectations. Or maybe the expectations are a bit too high or unrealistic?

As I said earlier, the price of housing in Canada is dramatically skewed by a few cities.

Real estate is not the only economic driver. Us Boomers also had those factors to contend with back then.

As I also said, there is no right to own a home, never has been. Millions of people do not own but rent or lease, for their entire lives, for various reasons.

I have also said, every generation has had it's challenges. To say this generation has it harder is nonsensical unless you have lived in the other generation. I can tell you , as a boomer, with single income and 18% mortgage and many years of 7+ % inflation, I had it hard but, with determination, doing with less and lowering lifestyle and expectations , we made it. ( I linked inflation and mortgage rates previously)

Continuing on with you is pointless because you a obsessed with housing prices in Toronto and the plight of millennial (as opposed to all people) in Toronto.

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1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. From above, my question is: "Shouldn't the economy generally improve the life situation if workers over time?"

The economy doesn't, no.  Its' not really possible per se.  The value of work doesn't really change.

Techology can change and make life better - people have far better medical options to day than they would have 40 years ago. People have more access to entertainment and information due to tech increases. But that's not an 'economic' issue.

Generally the standard of living improves with technological and other innovations but not really economic ones.

The economy can't really improve the lives of people per se.  If it does it can only do so by providing more money to people - which inflation will simply wipe out very quickly.

About the only change the economy can make  that makes life 'better' is stability. If the economy is more stable over time it makes people's lives better. They can plan for more, they don't have their savings wiped out by economic uncertainty just as they're retiring, they can build better lives.

But that's about it.

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1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said:



What are some of the factors that influence real estate prices in Canada ?

-Interest rates
-Taxation policy
-Rental policies
-Foreign investment rules
-Immigration policy
-Environmental and land use policy
-Demographics
-Market factors - supply and demand for housing


 

Not to butt in on your discussion overly much - but i felt this particuar point should be addressed.

Everything comes back to how many houses we build. That is the only thing that affects actual cost of home ownership or rent for most people.

If there's enough homes, the cost is lower. if there is not the cost is higher. Most of what you mentioned is either wrong or is only right because of housing supply.  Lets look:

-Interest rates:  Doesn't actually mean anything for the average buyer. If interest rates go up then purchase price goes down but payments remain the same. Ohter than those who have cash it doesn't change the actual realized cost, people will still pay the max per month they're allowed to.


-Taxation policy: Not really. Again, in a market where there's not enough homes people will spend the max their disposable income allows after tax regardless.


-Rental policies: Again, not really. IF there's not enough homes, then if policies restrict rentals then home prices go up  as more try to buy and rental rates go up due to fewer rentals.  If rental rules are relaxed and there's not enough homes then people hold on to investment properties but more people are trying to rent so - same thing.


-Foreign investment rules: Makes no difference whatsoever.  Foreign investors only care about buynig a lot of homes if the values are shooting up, which doesnt' happen if you're building enough homes. Canada doesn't so we're targeted, but if we did it would not be an issue. And as most investors rent the properties out it actually doesn't change our real housing situation at ll. In short - the only reason it's a problem is we're not building enough homes.


-Immigration policy: You're closer to the mark here - but not really. Again - if we were building enough homes immigration would have zero impact.


-Environmental and land use policy:  Only in as much as it makes it hard to build enough homes.


-Demographics:  That doesn't mean anything.  there are no demograhpic issues that aren't addressed by supply.


-Market factors - supply and demand for housing:  The ONLY thing that matters. If there were enough homes, they would be affordable and rents would be as well.

ALLof our housing issues are due to not enough homes being built to satisfy the demands of our population. Solve that problem and the rest go away.

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53 minutes ago, ExFlyer said:

1. The economy does not always "improve" the life situation if workers". As can be seen now, the economy is actually quite good but some people are not living up to their expectations.  

2.  Real estate is not the only economic driver. Us Boomers also had those factors to contend with back then.

3. I have also said, every generation has had it's challenges. To say this generation has it harder is nonsensical unless you have lived in the other generation. I can tell you , as a boomer, with single income and 18% mortgage and many years of 7+ % inflation, I had it hard but, with determination, doing with less and lowering lifestyle and expectations , we made it. ( I linked inflation and mortgage rates previously)

4. Continuing on with you is pointless because you a obsessed with housing prices in Toronto and the plight of millennial (as opposed to all people) in Toronto.

1. Ok, but in general SHOULD the economy provide a better life as time goes on?

2. It's a significant, and increasing share of after tax income.  And let's leave owning a home aside - renting is also at the point of becoming unsustainable and not just in big cities.

3. As long as we're being anecdotal, I have never known another boomer who was unable to buy, or rent in Toronto.  I am also a boomer.  Toughing it out is just not an option..

4. Ok, I will look at examples not in Toronto, point taken.  Focussing on millennials because they need the most help 

  

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3 hours ago, ExFlyer said:

Disingenuous about what?? I lived through the 70's and 80's. I know inflation and high interest and increased wages.

You didn't notice any corruption or how the influence that lobbyists and government's deal in skewed the playing field one way or another?

You're either oblivious to this or simply believe the effect on the economy is too negligible to be worth worrying about.  Or perhaps you're someone who believes corruption is an integral part of the economy and we would all suffer without it.

How would we ever know though without being able to see what public officials and private corporations are discussing?  You've made it pretty clear you don't like the idea of the public sticking it's nose in the public's business.  

In the meantime...

Quote

QUERY Could you please provide me with counterarguments, evidence as well as possible case studies, which refute the value of corruption as a positive economic force?

PURPOSE Some development professionals argue that corruption can have a positive effect by generating parallel and neutral economic flows. Beyond the argument that corruption is necessary to "grease the wheels" of the economy, they see corruption as a "positive" (economically, socially) and "redistributive" force. We would like to have the counter-arguments.

https://www.transparency.org/files/content/corruptionqas/Impact_of_corruption_on_growth_and_inequality_2014.pdf

 

OTOH

Quote

 

When jobs (or contracts) are given to people (or companies) who offer bribes or share a personal connection, this occurs to the detriment of competition. The result is that more qualified candidates and firms are turned down. The more widespread such practices are, the more inefficient the economy becomes.

https://www.imf.org/EXTERNAL/PUBS/FT/ISSUES6/INDEX.HTM

 

Like I said, there are other perhaps more important reasons why millennials can expect a more meagre future than we might lived in expectation of.

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