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Canada: A Civilised State -Really?


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I am tired of federal politicians like Harper claiming that we deserve better.

I am tired of people like Trudeau Jnr saying nonsense about westerners.

We Canadians have created a civilised society. A federal State.

=====

For example, in Canada, the provincial governments have complete control of education. There is no federal bureaucracy for education. Quebec bureaucrats ensure that federal bureaucrats do not encroach.

Edited by August1991
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Unfortunately the current federal government has lost much credibility.  I wouldn’t call a government that seriously considers medically assisted suicide for the mentally ill a moral authority on healthcare.  In fact they’re dangerous to our health.  The provinces?  Well I’d say it’s case by case.  British Columbia now has one of the world’s worst drug epidemics.  They’re allowing the distribution of free hard drugs in the name of helping people.

The country has taken dangerous positions on gender affirmation of children, basically saying that what children feel their gender is this week should be reinforced by the adults responsible for their education and upbringing. Government has decided that surgery and drugs to cover up biological gender are okay but conversion therapy, whereby counselling and other non-surgical means are used to resolve gender dysphoria, are not.

The federal government and provinces are struggling to focus on what actually impacts Canadians.  In a time of high inflation and debt we’re sending billions to Ukraine without a clear end or purpose, as there’s no reasonable consensus on what success means.

Our federal government throws additional fuel and heating taxes on people in the name of an unclear project called “fighting climate change” without evidence that Canada’s measures will make any measurable difference, especially when the same government is letting in half a million immigrants (carbon footprints) a year.

Everyone with a working brain understands that adding millions of people without the infrastructure and housing to support it only raises our already high housing prices and puts more stress on our over-burdened healthcare system.

Yet reasonable discussions about policy are overridden by an obsession with identity politics and narratives about who is most deserving of government/business support based on one’s happenstance membership in a group: black, white, indigenous.  Government appears to favour some groups more than others.

There’s an overall sense that our Charter rights aren’t properly protected and governments are micromanaging how we think and live in unprecedented ways.  The pandemic illustrated the overreach to many citizens.

I used to be very proud of Canada.  Now that I see our governments doing so much to undermine the mental and physical health of Canadians, with no end in sight for the fear mongering around climate change and the sowing of division between races and other identity groups, I don’t feel the same regard for Canada.

Think about how much we’ve been told that Canada is colonial and racist these past few years.  Think about how the media has fed the conjectures about child graves at residential schools. Evidence isn’t produced to indicate intentional killing, yet words like genocide are used loosely to equate our country with the likes of Nazi Germany. Our kids are now being raised on these dubious narratives.

Why would I want any of the above for my kids?  Explain the upside.  Unless and until we have governments that are honest and fair in their esteem for this once great country, and unless government reduces its overreach and starts doing the few things we actually need government to do much better, I’m seriously looking outside Canada for freedom, prosperity, and fair treatment.

Edited by Zeitgeist
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8 hours ago, August1991 said:

For example, in Canada, the provincial governments have complete control of education. There is no federal bureaucracy for education. Quebec bureaucrats ensure that federal bureaucrats do not encroach.

Maybe the notion of economies of scale eludes us when it comes to governance.  Why do we need 10 governments all doing the same thing? Because the jobs too big for just one I guess. I think its often to big for 10 governments.

Maybe our provinces are too big and something more regional or area based would be more responsive to needs on the ground but then why would we need Ottawa?  If we could get things down to just one government...the costs savings alone should have us salivating at the prospect. I'd rather the public try getting more control over Ottawa before anything else.  It's the only thing we haven't tried.

One big government facilitating hundreds of little regional ones makes sense to me.  Please note I didn't say one big government orchestrating hundreds of little one's. It's an important distinction.  I know it seems counter-intuitive to ask why we need so many provinces and then propose hundreds of regional ones instead.

In any case I think far greater more penetrating control over Ottawa is the key to succeeding at whatever we do.  Hopefully it would provide a better example for the provinces to follow and I bet Ottawa would be loath to let lesser governments get away with any opacity they were compelled to clear up.

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6 hours ago, TreeBeard said:

What, specifically, has he said?

I want to know too.  I feel great shame being a westerner and all the problems we've caused in this world.  It would be nice to have a leader who expresses these things too. #ihatemyself.

Edited by Moonlight Graham
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18 hours ago, Moonlight Graham said:

I want to know too.  I feel great shame being a westerner and all the problems we've caused in this world.  It would be nice to have a leader who expresses these things too. #ihatemyself.

Didn't he go to the UN and apologize for Canada being a racist, genocidal state or something?

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18 hours ago, I am Groot said:

Didn't he go to the UN and apologize for Canada being a racist, genocidal state or something?

This is one of the main reasons I can no longer be a liberal.  When naive and ignorant leaders continue to say how unfair, racist, and colonial our country has been (even though evidence illustrates how exceptionally progressive Canada has been relative to almost every other country and tribe), after a while people believe it.

We start pretending that Indigenous, blacks, and most racialized and ethnic groups never invaded, killed, kept slaves, or traded them.  In Canada there were Indigenous groups that behaved far worse than the Canadian government.  The reward for suppressing some facts and exaggerating others is new forms of injustice.

That’s why Trudeau has been irresponsible and helped foment the division and new forms of racism we see today.  He was naive to think that his rhetoric wouldn’t be used for nefarious purposes.  He’s not alone among western leaders.  The problem too is that pointing out Trump’s antics made it easier for Liberals and Democrats to justify their rhetoric.  The focus on race is making us come apart in a country that didn’t have a lot of racial division just five years ago.  Much of what’s happening is the spillover effect from George Floyd’s death in the US, a country with a much more brutal history with race that is today one of the most accepting countries from a policy perspective.

So if in Canada we don’t have racist policies in government or organizations, what we’re really talking about is improving people’s attitudes towards groups outside their in-groups.  What’s going to do that?   Certainly not trying to make the people who are alive today who happen to be a certain colour feel guilty or like bad people.  Taking or destroying their property won’t do it either.

Right now the only racist policies I know of are the Indian Act (which the government wants changed but most Indigenous want to keep) and these new “racialized-only” job postings and unfair treatment of people who are accused of racism without any evidence and who are mistreated by their employers on the basis of such false accusations, even after investigations dismiss the accusations, as in the TDSB.

Actually some of the content of mandatory equity training that is sweeping across organizations is also an example of systematic racism because it makes value judgments about racial groups such as, “White people are fragile” and “White people are privileged” or “Black people are oppressed.”   Clearly some white people are not privileged and some black people are.   Generalizing about all people who happen to be a certain colour is racism.  

Edited by Zeitgeist
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5 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

1. In Canada there were Indigenous groups that behaved far worse than the Canadian government.

2. The reward for suppressing some facts and exaggerating others is new forms of injustice.

1. What's the moral and legal principle behind your two-wrongs make it right defence? Somewhere in the moral basis we used for almost 2000 years before imposing it on other people perhaps?

2. What suppression, exaggerating and injustice are you talking about?  You think you're the victim or something?

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16 minutes ago, eyeball said:

1. What's the moral and legal principle behind your two-wrongs make it right defence? Somewhere in the moral basis we used for almost 2000 years before imposing it on other people perhaps?

2. What suppression, exaggerating and injustice are you talking about?  You think you're the victim or something?

Do you read and think about what you read?

I agree that two wrongs don’t make a right, so let’s agree to stop doing bad stuff, including acts of vengeance against people living today who have done nothing wrong.

I also find it tremendously ironic that many of the figures leading the vengeful mob are among the most privileged people alive today.

The Bolsheviks are closet aristocrats.  They always have the best champagne and dachas.

Edited by Zeitgeist
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5 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

1. Do you read and think about what you read?

2. I agree that two wrongs don’t make a right, so let’s agree to stop doing bad stuff, including acts of vengeance against people living today who have done nothing wrong.

3. I also find it tremendously ironic that many of the figures leading the vengeful mob are among the most privileged people alive today.

4. The Bolsheviks are closet aristocrats.  They always have the best champagne and dachas.

1. Of course I do.  It takes far less time to go through your's to find the flaws in your thinking. 

2. Who are these living victim's in the present you're talking about, what bad stuff is being done to them and who specifically is doing this to them?

3. Who exactly and why do you think you're exempt from question 1?

4. Meh...this is just the spooks hiding under your bed doing your talking.

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8 minutes ago, eyeball said:

1. Of course I do.  It takes far less time to go through your's to find the flaws in your thinking. 

2. Who are these living victim's in the present you're talking about, what bad stuff is being done to them and who specifically is doing this to them?

3. Who exactly and why do you think you're exempt from question 1?

4. Meh...this is just the spooks hiding under your bed doing your talking.

You don’t read posts.  The answers are in my prior posts and I’m not repeating myself.  If you don’t think my posts sufficiently answer your questions, that’s fine.  I generally don’t agree with your views, which is fine.

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10 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

You don’t read posts.  The answers are in my prior posts and I’m not repeating myself.

On behalf of myself and everyone else thanks so much for that.

11 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

If you don’t think my posts sufficiently answer your questions, that’s fine.  I generally don’t agree with your views, which is fine.

I think your posts contain enough authoritarian hooey associated with the aforementioned spooks hiding under your bed to know your views are just about completely cemented into place.

That's why you never think through to the sort of logical inconvenient questions you'll be asked such as how, who and where?

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Is Canada a Civilized state?    Good question.   67% Canadians agree Canada is broken.

"At least 13,581 patients died while waiting for surgeries, procedures, and diagnostic scans in 2021/22 — up from the previous year's total of 11,581."  This is purely because of the state's choosing not to put enough money into the health care system and choosing not to make major reforms of the system.   B.C. announced recently that they had billions of dollars in surplus.  Provinces have been giving billions of dollars out in financial support cheques to everyone.  Yet the health care system is in a crisis.  Obviously their priority is not health care.  

Over 10,000 people per year chose doctor-assisted death in the last couple years (MAID).

Over 1,200 people died by overdose in B.C. the past year.

Around 80 to 100 thousand babies are aborted per year in Canada alone.

Every day at least someone is assaulted by a stranger on the streets of Vancouver.  Some die.

Gender identity and sexual orientation is taught to children in schools.

Lots of reasons for why Canada could not really be a civilized state depending on one's definition.

 

Edited by blackbird
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2 hours ago, blackbird said:

Is Canada a Civilized state?    Good question.   67% Canadians agree Canada is broken.

"At least 13,581 patients died while waiting for surgeries, procedures, and diagnostic scans in 2021/22 — up from the previous year's total of 11,581."  This is purely because of the state's choosing not to put enough money into the health care system and choosing not to make major reforms of the system.   B.C. announced recently that they had billions of dollars in surplus.  Provinces have been giving billions of dollars out in financial support cheques to everyone.  Yet the health care system is in a crisis.  Obviously their priority is not health care.  

Over 10,000 people per year chose doctor-assisted death in the last couple years (MAID).

Over 1,200 people died by overdose in B.C. the past year.

Around 80 to 100 thousand babies are aborted per year in Canada alone.

Every day at least someone is assaulted by a stranger on the streets of Vancouver.  Some die.

Gender identity and sexual orientation is taught to children in schools.

Lots of reasons for why Canada could not really be a civilized state depending on one's definition.

 

I think Canada is still a civilized state, but there are always problems such as in dealing with change and progress.

In fact just the other day I thanked god that I had the fortune of being raised in Canada, looking at the situation in the rest of the world.

Canada is the best goddam country, in the world imo

and that isn't just the Jack Daniels talking.

....

Having said that,

there is always danger

and we must do as was so eloquently phrased long ago

by our forefathers,

to "stand on guard for thee"

let that be our role

on this,

our native land

to be the vanguard

of the great

Candian ideal...

;)

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3 hours ago, OftenWrong said:

there is always danger

and we must do as was so eloquently phrased long ago

by our forefathers,

to "stand on guard for thee"

let that be our role

on this,

Sorta like when Orwell was asked, 'how do we prevent the dystopia you've warned about George'?  'Just don't let it happen' he replied.

There's what, maybe some 1500 MP's and MLA's across all of Canada and 38 million of us...how hard can it be?

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When I see all the people that die every year unnecessarily like the 13,581 that died in 2020/21 waiting for procedures in health care, I can only shake my head in disbelief.  In light of that I would not say Canada is a civilized country.  That sends the wrong message to politicians.  That seems to be sanctioning or glossing over something that is seriously broken and dysfunctional.  Politicians should somehow be held accountable.  Instead they are pulling in huge salaries for very little effort and don't appear to be fixing the problems.  I guess how one feels depends whether it is someone close to home who died or yourself on some waiting list.

If their cheques and pensions were tied to performance instead of for just being there, perhaps it would make a difference.

Edited by blackbird
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On 2/13/2023 at 1:01 AM, blackbird said:

When I see all the people that die every year unnecessarily like the 13,581 that died in 2020/21 waiting for procedures in health care, I can only shake my head in disbelief.  In light of that I would not say Canada is a civilized country.  That sends the wrong message to politicians.  That seems to be sanctioning or glossing over something that is seriously broken and dysfunctional.  Politicians should somehow be held accountable.  Instead they are pulling in huge salaries 

There is no excusing it, what we've done to ourselves. But it happened in all countries all over the world, and so it now depends on how we can recover, what we need to do to prevent that from happening again.

When they enacted emergency powers they empowered themselves. Democracy at that point was put aside.

We need new laws to protect us from the bastardized leadership class in this country. For example, we allowed them to declare mass quarantines and shutdowns, without end. I have a problem with that. Government inertia and stupidity being two things you can depend on, in this life.

Edited by OftenWrong
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On 2/10/2023 at 7:15 AM, Zeitgeist said:

Unfortunately the current federal government has lost much credibility.  I wouldn’t call a government that seriously considers medically assisted suicide for the mentally ill a moral authority on healthcare.  In fact they’re dangerous to our health.  The provinces?

...

I reckon that such moral questions as MAID are better left to local jurisdictions.

Why Canada has a federal criminal code has always surprised me; if you drive drunk, it is a provincial Crown prosecutor who accuses you.

(The US federal postal/wire/cross-state-line charges are even more foolish.)

======

Canada is great because education and health are provincial jurisdictions.

In Canada, there is no federal bureaucracy for education. Our federal bureaucracy for health is only for native Indians.

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The idea of ObamaCare is ridiculous.

The US is a country of over 300 million people. A single health insurance system for everyone is impossible.

In Canada, we manage our state health system by province - our largest province is Ontario with about 10 million people.

In Ontario, it sorta works

Edited by August1991
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20 minutes ago, August1991 said:

The idea of ObamaCare is ridiculous.

The US is a country of over 300 million people. A single health insurance system for everyone is impossible.

In Canada, we manage our state health system by province - our largest province is Ontario with about 10 million people.

In Ontario, it sorta works

You can’t get out of an Ontario hospital in less than 4 hours.  Generally you will sit in triage overnight.  After several hours, hopefully, a doctor will see you for 5 minutes.

If you need an MRI because of possible terminal disease, just hope that the disease doesn’t advance too far before your scheduled appointment months later.

 I’m sure if you’re having a heart attack you’ll be seen to fairly quickly, so the next time you’re very sick and your family doctor’s office is closed, have a heart attack and you’ll be seen to at the hospital right away.  

Edited by Zeitgeist
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On 2/10/2023 at 11:50 AM, eyeball said:

Maybe the notion of economies of scale eludes us when it comes to governance.  Why do we need 10 governments all doing the same thing? Because the jobs too big for just one I guess. I think its often to big for 10 governments.

.....

Economies of scale for government services? Small countries are richer than big countries.

Eyeball, look at the stats. 

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