Emergency Act commission

[Zeitgeist]

6 hours ago, Queenmandy85 said:

The last time, the only time, we have ever had martial law in Canada was in the Lower Canada rebellion in 1837-38. 

What is it about the deaths of 40,000 Canadians that doesn't seem to bother you? You seem to have the attitude of let people die, let the healthcare system collapse. 

No that’s not the issue.  China had far fewer deaths but most Canadians don’t want to emigrate to China.  The issue is that because our healthcare system is weak and our governments decided that individual medical discretion and constitutional rights are less important than protecting a failed system and pretending it isn’t failed, government essentially lapsed into totalitarianism.  Individual rights such as freedom of movement and medical discretion were overridden.

I’d say that for much of the pandemic the public understood that sacrifices were necessary, but by the time vaccines became available to anyone who wanted them and the dominant Covid strains weakened, the mandates came to look unnecessarily harsh and arbitrary.  People had vaccines, masks, and treatments to protect themselves irrespective of what other people did.  For government not even to talk to the opposition and instead to vilify them, was pretty awful.  The EA, bank account freezes, etc. added insult to injury.

You don’t get to impose drastic rules on people without damn good reasons or to treat them harshly without damn good reasons.  There simply weren’t good reasons for any of this.  It looked like a fearful and cowardly government killed a fly with a sledgehammer.  

Edited November 1, 2022 by Zeitgeist

[Queenmandy85]

The EMA was not a response to people not wanting to be vaccinated. It was a response to the occupation of downtown Ottawa that had no end in site. The occupiers were attempting to coerce the various levels of government to over ride the public health orders. As for talking to the opposition, the Government was in constant communication with mr. O'Tool and Mr. Singh. The occupation was causing a lot of suffering for people who were unable to go to work because the occupation forces businesses to close down, such as the businesses in the Rideau centre. The violation of the rights of the citizens of Ottawa had gone on far too long. 

You know all this but you seem to gloss over the rights of the people whose lives were disrupted. There are proper ways to seek remedy for grievences.

Edited November 1, 2022 by Queenmandy85

[myata]

11 hours ago, Moonbox said:

No, that part was an overreach. 

So, a gross, irresponsible overreach of authority; infringing on multiple citizen rights, including the right to a peaceful protest; on a whim; and with no consequences, assured and guaranteed, is "only words"? Nothing bad can happen here because...?

[myata]

5 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

The issue is that because our healthcare system is weak and our governments decided that individual medical discretion and constitutional rights are less important than protecting a failed system and pretending it isn’t failed, government essentially lapsed into totalitarianism.

Couldn't be said any better. Since when arbitrary counts on an arbitrarily selected issues became more important than constitutional rights, checks and accountability? Who said and decided that number = X allows me to cancel your rights and begin martial law? Can't you see that this kind and style of governance is way into another territory - and right on the way to totalitarianism. Seriously movies were made exactly about this theme way before this pandemic.

[ExFlyer]

15 hours ago, myata said:

WTH? Invoking Emergency WAR measures on a flu-like epidemics because nothing less worked was "only words"? You are waiting for something real, good then? And won't notice anything less? Good luck!

Invoking EMA had nothing to do with the "flu-like epidemics". It was the debacle on Wellington Street and in Windsor and in Coutss.

The "flu-like epidemics" killed over 46K in Canada and 6.5 million world wide so, be it "flu like" or COVID, it is definitely a major health crisis and action needed to be taken world wide.

The EMA invocation had nothing to do with that, it had everything to do with a very few radicals, extremists, protesters, heros, bums, terrorists or whatever groups and news and critics called them.

[West]

16 hours ago, Queenmandy85 said:

By opponents, do you mean the people who call the Prime Minister a traitor and war criminal?  Or how about those people who call the Finance Minister a traitor and a Nazi? You mean those opponents?

He is a war criminal

[Zeitgeist]

3 hours ago, myata said:

Couldn't be said any better. Since when arbitrary counts on an arbitrarily selected issues became more important than constitutional rights, checks and accountability? Who said and decided that number = X allows me to cancel your rights and begin martial law? Can't you see that this kind and style of governance is way into another territory - and right on the way to totalitarianism. Seriously movies were made exactly about this theme way before this pandemic.

Yup, and we see these moves in all sorts of areas.  You can’t order a passport in less than four months now unless you can provide evidence that you will be visiting another country to the passport office.  At what point did we have to start sharing this information with passport officials to get the basic service of ordering a passport?  It reminds me of Soviet Russia.  

[Zeitgeist]

8 hours ago, Queenmandy85 said:

The EMA was not a response to people not wanting to be vaccinated. It was a response to the occupation of downtown Ottawa that had no end in site. The occupiers were attempting to coerce the various levels of government to over ride the public health orders. As for talking to the opposition, the Government was in constant communication with mr. O'Tool and Mr. Singh. The occupation was causing a lot of suffering for people who were unable to go to work because the occupation forces businesses to close down, such as the businesses in the Rideau centre. The violation of the rights of the citizens of Ottawa had gone on far too long. 

You know all this but you seem to gloss over the rights of the people whose lives were disrupted. There are proper ways to seek remedy for grievences.

Not true at all that there was a reaching out of government to protesters and their organizers.  There was no violence among protesters, the honking and blockade had mostly ended, and agreements were being settled to shrink and move the protest footprint before the EA was invoked.  

[West]

5 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Not true at all that there was a reaching out of government to protesters and their organizers.  There was no violence among protesters, the honking and blockade had mostly ended, and agreements were being settled to shrink and move the protest footprint before the EA was invoked.  

But they had mean signs about Trudeau 

[Queenmandy85]

7 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Not true at all that there was a reaching out of government to protesters and their organizers.  There was no violence among protesters, the honking and blockade had mostly ended, and agreements were being settled to shrink and move the protest footprint before the EA was invoked.  

You said "opposition." Nobody, whether in government or individuals, should ever negotiate paymet of ransom or blackmail. When a gang of hippies takes over your house in a home invasion, do you offer to pay them to leave or do you have the police remove them. If you pay them, they will be back. If. the government gave in to the extortion, it would encourage others.

What is forgotten is this came on the heels of the Jan. 6 attack on the US capital. The leaders of the convoy published a manifesto demanding the overthrow of the government. They were allowed to go to Ottawa and spent 3 weeks violating the rights of the residents. Their message that they were against public health measures enacted to save lives was heard by government. Even after their presence became intolerable to the innocent citizens, and long after their grievence had been made clear, they refused to leave. They publicly stated that they intended to continue holding the city captive until they got their way, despite the fact they not only represented a tiny minority and their objective contradicted the advice of every Public Health officer.

There are legal remedies to grievences.

[Zeitgeist]

2 minutes ago, Queenmandy85 said:

You said "opposition." Nobody, whether in government or individuals, should ever negotiate paymet of ransom or blackmail. When a gang of hippies takes over your house in a home invasion, do you offer to pay them to leave or do you have the police remove them. If you pay them, they will be back. If. the government gave in to the extortion, it would encourage others.

What is forgotten is this came on the heels of the Jan. 6 attack on the US capital. The leaders of the convoy published a manifesto demanding the overthrow of the government. They were allowed to go to Ottawa and spent 3 weeks violating the rights of the residents. Their message that they were against public health measures enacted to save lives was heard by government. Even after their presence became intolerable to the innocent citizens, and long after their grievence had been made clear, they refused to leave. They publicly stated that they intended to continue holding the city captive until they got their way, despite the fact they not only represented a tiny minority and their objective contradicted the advice of every Public Health officer.

There are legal remedies to grievences.

You clearly didn’t see the thousands of regular citizens lining highways and showing up in Ottawa to oppose mandates.  You’re using the same degrading language to paint everyone with the extremist brush.  “Tiny minority” sounds just like “fringe minority” (Trudeau). 

[Queenmandy85]

The participants in the convoy could have achieved the same result with letters to their MLA's, MPP's, and MP's, outlining why Ms. Lich, Mr. King and Mr. MacKenzie knew more about preventing the spread of Covid-19 than public health professionals, healthcare professionals, virologists (including the staff at VIDO) and immunologists with decades of experience. 

Think about the deadly flu epidemic after the Great War. It swept through killing tens of thousands of people. We used quarantines to combat it. There was no vaccine. When it began to wane, here in Saskatoon, they opened up the University and the flu returned to kill many more. 

This is the danger with covid. It is coming back and we have removed our best measures to mitigate the deadly impact. That is social distancing, hand sanitation, lockdowns, masks and vaccines. With all the variants circulating and mutating, we are in danger of a really lethal strain. We are only three years into this pandemic. They usually last 5- 20 years. It is time to suck it up and get used to being under public health measures for the long haul. The most important objective is to save lives.

Edited November 1, 2022 by Queenmandy85

[West]

29 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

You clearly didn’t see the thousands of regular citizens lining highways and showing up in Ottawa to oppose mandates.  You’re using the same degrading language to paint everyone with the extremist brush.  “Tiny minority” sounds just like “fringe minority” (Trudeau). 

What they do.. also call people who don't spread their lies and propaganda "liars". Very ill people

[West]

3 minutes ago, Queenmandy85 said:

The participants in the convoy could have achieved the same result with letters to their MLA's, MPP's, and MP's, outlining why Ms. Lich, Mr. King and Mr. MacKenzie knew more about preventing the spread of Covid-19 than public health professionals, healthcare professionals, virologists (including the staff at VIDO) and immunologists with decades of experience. 

Think about the deadly flu epidemic after the Great War. It swept through killing tens of thousands of people. We used quarantines to combat it. There was no vaccine. When it began to wane, here in Saskatoon, they opened up the University and the flu returned to kill many more. 

This is the danger with covid. It is coming back and we have removed our best measures to mitigate the deadly impact. That is social distancing, hand sanitation, lockdowns, masks and vaccines. With all the variants circulating and mutating, we are in danger of a really lethal strain. We are only three years into this pandemic. They usually last 5- 20 years. It is time to suck it up and get used to being under public health measures for the long haul. The most important objective is to save lives.

So your solution is perma lockdowns? 

No thanks. Would rather risk getting covid than have to live through more of the same crap from the past two years. 

[myata]

2 hours ago, ExFlyer said:

The "flu-like epidemics" killed over 46K in Canada and

Counting almost three years the total flu count by now up to 24K.

In a CBC interview a few weeks ago an editor of the Canadian Medical Association Journal said: "Four thousand to 8,000  people die every year of influenza." 

Then nobody ever tried to count all kind of complicated cases as "flu related", caused and so on. So let's say 35 or even 40 (or even higher). Has anyone ever made you wear facecloth with unknown effect because of annual flu? Maybe invoked war measures with curfews (yes, factual)? And why not? Like do we know where the line and the limits are? How will we know?

Edited November 1, 2022 by myata

[Queenmandy85]

1 hour ago, myata said:

Counting almost three years the total flu count by now up to 24K.

In a CBC interview a few weeks ago an editor of the Canadian Medical Association Journal said: "Four thousand to 8,000  people die every year of influenza." 

Then nobody ever tried to count all kind of complicated cases as "flu related", caused and so on. So let's say 35 or even 40 (or even higher). Has anyone ever made you wear facecloth with unknown effect because of annual flu? Maybe invoked war measures with curfews (yes, factual)? And why not? Like do we know where the line and the limits are? How will we know?

And when we began taking measures in response to Covid-19, the cases of flu dropped to almost nothing. The lesson there is social distancing, hand sanitation and masks work against influenza too. I do not understand why some people are against masks. I understand the fear of needles that drives vaccine hesitancy, but what is wrong with masks?

[Queenmandy85]

1 hour ago, myata said:

Like do we know where the line and the limits are? How will we know?

Saving lives is the most important activity we can do. You can always get more money and you can always get another job, but you only have one life. It is the most precious thing we have.

 

1 hour ago, West said:

So your solution is perma lockdowns? 

No thanks. Would rather risk getting covid than have to live through more of the same crap from the past two years. 

The point is not just to save your life. It is the lives of others we are concerned with as well. When you contract covid, you become a link in the chain of transmission. If you do not break that link, the chain will grow and divide and someone, or many, down that chain will die as a result. You only need to make a small sacrifice to save the lives of others.

[myata]

6 minutes ago, Queenmandy85 said:

And when we began taking measures in response to Covid-19, the cases of flu dropped to almost nothing.

And in China they are actually nothing. Total zero, China says so and why not like who can know. And what? What is your point here? How many cases is one freedom and one last drop of accountability, even painted and token, worth? Are they even worth anything still?

[ExFlyer]

2 hours ago, myata said:

Counting almost three years the total flu count by now up to 24K.

In a CBC interview a few weeks ago an editor of the Canadian Medical Association Journal said: "Four thousand to 8,000  people die every year of influenza." 

Then nobody ever tried to count all kind of complicated cases as "flu related", caused and so on. So let's say 35 or even 40 (or even higher). Has anyone ever made you wear facecloth with unknown effect because of annual flu? Maybe invoked war measures with curfews (yes, factual)? And why not? Like do we know where the line and the limits are? How will we know?

COVID killed over 46,000  a lot more than  flu.

Lets blow your flu death BS out of the water.

2020-2021 influenza season

• During the 2020–2021 Canadian influenza season, no community circulation of influenza occurred.
• Only 69 positive detections of influenza were reported, and influenza percent positivity did not exceed 0.1%.
• https://www.canada.ca/en/public-health/services/diseases/flu-influenza/influenza-surveillance/annual-reports.html

"Did you ever wonder how they know that? The fact is, they don't know that. "This is a scientific guess. This is not the truth," Dr. Michael Gardam, director of the infection prevention and control unit at the University Health Network in Toronto "

"The fact is, no one knows how many people die after being infected with the flu virus. The death estimates are not based on body counts, lab tests or autopsies. 

"I think people may have the misconception that every person who dies from the flu is somehow counted somewhere, and they're not," Gardam said."

https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/flu-deaths-reality-check-1.1127442

 

Who invoked war measures?? 

You BS so much, you actually believe your own BS LOL

[Queenmandy85]

4 minutes ago, myata said:

And in China they are actually nothing. Total zero, China says so and why not like who can know. And what? What is your point here? How many cases is one freedom and one last drop of accountability, even painted and token, worth? Are they even worth anything still?

Tell that to the inmates at the Shanghai Disneyland. Society is a balance between freedom and survival. In China and Russia, that balance is way out of whack. In Canada, we have a pretty good balance. The EMA was a response to the violation of the constitutional rights of thousands of residents in Ottawa. The sanctions against the convoy participants did not violate their rights. The right to protest was affirmed. The right to break the law was not. Freezing of money in the commission of a crime is not a violation of constitutional rights. Using reasonable force to effect an arrest is not a violation of constitutional rights. Towing vehicles that are illegally parked is not a violation of constitutional rights. (At least I hope not. I have seized and towed enough vehicles in my career.)  When a Peace Officer tells you to move, you move.

What is irrational is, when offered a vaccine that can save your life, or the lives of others, why would anyone not choose self preservation?

[ExFlyer]

36 minutes ago, myata said:

And in China they are actually nothing. Total zero, China says so and why not like who can know. And what? What is your point here? How many cases is one freedom and one last drop of accountability, even painted and token, worth? Are they even worth anything still?

Are you actually saying China is telling you the truth???

It was leaked that 2 days ago at Shanghai Disney world they won't let anyone out until they test negative. That was leaked, for sure not an announcement by the government controlled media. So, is Shanghai Disney the epicentre or did they make covid there or is it just there and the rest of china is covid free??

You say our government controls the media and you are trying to imply that what Chinese media does or does not say is the truth??? You are certainly bent in the wrong direction LOL

[eyeball]

2 hours ago, West said:

So your solution is perma lockdowns? 

Not if you people put your conclusions up for peer review and it's determined you demonstrably know better than the experts what if anything needs to be done.

What is it about this simple fact that you don't get?

[Queenmandy85]

Lets examine the qualifications of the people on each side. 

One the one side we have Ms. Lich, a fitness instructor and musician. Pat King has no known training or experience in medicine. Chris Barber, truck driver (likely an excellent driver) also has no known medical credentials. Chris Sky works for a construction company and has no known medical expertise.

On the other side, we have Dr. Theresa Tam, Chief Public Health Officer of Canada with 25 years of experience in the fields of infectious disease prevention and control. We have Dr. Saqib Shah, Chief Medical Officer for the Province of Saskatchewan, one of Canada's longest serving Provincial Chief Medical Officers. Dr. Bonnie Henry, retired RCN Medical Officer, Associate Professor at UBC in preventative medicine, and Provincial Health Officer for the Province of British Columbia. I could go on but you get the picture. 

Wait. I can add one more. Donald Trump, forme President of the United States of America who appeared with Bill O'Reilly to advocate, not just to get fully vaccianted, but to follow his example and take the booster shots as well.

So, lets choose which side is best qualified to advise us whether or not to follow public health measures. People with expertise in music and fitness, operating heavy transports, and an activist employed but not actually working for his dad's construction company...

or medical health professionals with years of experience in preventative medicine and infectious disease control.

Edited November 1, 2022 by Queenmandy85

[myata]

1 hour ago, Queenmandy85 said:

Society is a balance between freedom and survival. In China and Russia,

Aptly noted... except "balance" involves you know, balance; two or more weights, interests powers equaling, counterweighing, controlling each other. So that no one can pull all of the way their way, without checks, bounds, controls. And what if there's only one, how can it be "balanced", with what? Interesting, that you mention China, etc. a Freudean coincidence?

[Queenmandy85]

10 minutes ago, myata said:

Interesting, that you mention China, etc. a Freudean coincidence?

You have the avantage of me. I don't know what you mean.