Should the West Separate?

[QuebecOverCanada]

Just now, TreeBeard said:

You think people who make more income shouldn’t be taxed more?  Should everyone just pay a flat $2000, whether rich or poor?

You switch the subject, because you think governmental inefficiency should be subsidized by the most productive.

The reason Western provinces are richer is because they are generally better managed overall. Québec, Ontario and the Maritimes are not well managed and could be a lot richer without this governmental inefficiency that is subsidized by the taxes of the most productive provinces in the country.

Do you know about the goose that laid the golden eggs? 

What happened after it was ripped apart because of greed?

[TreeBeard]

Just now, QuebecOverCanada said:

The reason Western provinces are richer is because they are generally better managed overall.

Nothing to do with resource extraction and industrial capacity?  

Yukon and Northwest Territories have the highest median income in Canada because they are managed the best?

2 minutes ago, QuebecOverCanada said:

You switch the subject, because you think governmental inefficiency should be subsidized by the most productive.

We were talking taxes.  Weren’t we?  Places with higher incomes contribute more to the tax base.  Isn’t that just simple math?  

[Faramir]

14 minutes ago, TreeBeard said:

Is BC in “the West”?  Did they establish their own carbon tax years ago?  What does that do to your narrative?

BC actually is similar ideologically as Ontario and the country as a whole.  About 2 of 3 BC voters are genuine liberals.  1 of 3 are conservative and moderates.  I know many fellow "Westerners" would like to think otherwise but it isn't so.  Vancouver Island is pretty much NDP.  And Vancouver city is split between Liberals and the NDP.  It's only the hinterlands and suburban Vancouver that are conservative.

[QuebecOverCanada]

2 minutes ago, TreeBeard said:

Nothing to do with resource extraction and industrial capacity?  

Sure man. That's why Newfoundland has such a balanced budget.

And so do Venezuela and Algeria.

[Faramir]

11 minutes ago, QuebecOverCanada said:

You switch the subject, because you think governmental inefficiency should be subsidized by the most productive.

The reason Western provinces are richer is because they are generally better managed overall. Québec, Ontario and the Maritimes are not well managed and could be a lot richer without this governmental inefficiency that is subsidized by the taxes of the most productive provinces in the country.

Do you know about the goose that laid the golden eggs? 

What happened after it was ripped apart because of greed?

I don't know about Ontario but PQ is definitely terribly managed.  But if we want to be 100% accurate the reality looks like this.  The top 10% of taxpayers in the country basically shore up the have not provinces. The bottom 90% don't actually pay enough taxes to be noticed.  With one little caveat.  And that caveat is Alberta.  Even when Alberta was losing money it still did NOT qualify for equalization payments, even when Quebec, the 2nd largest province, did.  Think about the insanity of that.  The second largest province is have not.  Essentially Alberta and the top 10% pay the way for Quebec's $10 a day childcare. 

[TreeBeard]

1 minute ago, QuebecOverCanada said:

Sure man. That's why Newfoundland has such a balanced budget.

And so do Venezuela and Algeria.

I feel like the goalposts are blowing in the breeze…  by “richer”, did you mean median income?  Or do you mean a balanced budget?  Two very different things.  I would measure wealth by the median income.

NL has the lowest median income in Canada.  You expect their tax base to be larger…. Why?  

 

[eyeball]

3 hours ago, EastCanada90 said:

sigh are the west still crying? jesus i mean he bought a pipeline for you guys with like 4.5billion of our money..  what else do you whiny western people want?

Now now, when some of us in the west say freeze you eastern bastards we actually mean Alberta.

To VILO (Vancouver Island Liberation Organization) it means the Lower Mainland.

[Faramir]

4 minutes ago, QuebecOverCanada said:

Sure man. That's why Newfoundland has such a balanced budget.

And so do Venezuela and Algeria.

Great point.  Haiti has plenty of natural resources.  The same resources as its richer cousin, Dominican Republic.

[TreeBeard]

5 minutes ago, Faramir said:

BC actually is similar ideologically as Ontario and the country as a whole.  About 2 of 3 BC voters are genuine liberals.  1 of 3 are conservative and moderates.  I know many fellow "Westerners" would like to think otherwise but it isn't so.  Vancouver Island is pretty much NDP.  And Vancouver city is split between Liberals and the NDP.  It's only the hinterlands and suburban Vancouver that are conservative.

You talked about the terrible carbon tax and the West separating. 

Is BC in the West?  Do they want to separate?  Did they not have a carbon tax for many years?

[Faramir]

Just now, TreeBeard said:

I feel like the goalposts are blowing in the breeze…  by “richer”, did you mean median income?  Or do you mean a balanced budget?  Two very different things.  I would measure wealth by the median income.

NL has the lowest median income in Canada.  You expect their tax base to be larger…. Why?  

 

Median income is important because I believe, and correct me if I am wrong, but it is Alberta's large income as individuals that prevents them from getting equalization payments.  So even though the province has seen some really hard times, their median income is still much higher than in Quebec.

[Faramir]

1 minute ago, TreeBeard said:

You talked about the terrible carbon tax and the West separating. 

Is BC in the West?  Do they want to separate?  Did they not have a carbon tax for many years?

Personally I at one time wanted to separate.  Yes BC is in the West, but is ideologically identical to the country as a whole.  I would say only the conservative portions of BC would like to separate.  It just isn't going to happen.  And Albertans are after all still Canadians, which mean they bluster and whine, but have no follow through.  That Canadian trait is well and strong and has been since royalists left the 13 colonies and came to Ontario.

[Queenmandy85]

Let's look at the possible scenarios.

1. If all goes smoothly and there is a constitutional amendment to allow the four western provinces and three territories to separate. That transfers the political power to urban Winnipeg, Edmonton, Calgary and, most importantly, Vancouver.  Right off the bat, you have traded the Liberals for the NDP. Since BC was the first jurisdiction to introduce the carbon tax, that isn't going to end. Alberta's oil will be stuck because the the only outlet will be the Trans Mountain pipeline.

For defence, we would have to look for new allies. Since we are cut off from Europe, NATO would no longer be important.

2. The USA would take us over. That would lead to violence beyond your imagination. (Viet Nam and Iraq would be a picnic compared to what we would do to an American occupation) It would go on for decades until they left, but western Canada would never get back what it has.

3. The worst senario is most likely. Civil war. A civil war is where you are fighting your siblings, your neighbours, and anyone who you think is responsible for the separation, or vice versa. A good illustration of how a civil war is fought is the experience of the OAS in Algeria. The OAS lost the civil war, but they made the French security forces pay. A Canadian loyalist  group studies the people who are pro-separatist. They don't target the traitors directly. They kill and torture their families. The French security Forces hunted down the OAS and when they found one, the bodies were found in the morning with their wedding tackle stuffed down their throats. Don't expect Canadians to fight using Marquis of Queensbury rules. The German SS learned this in Italy. I've surgar coated this to spare people with sensitive dispositions.

Western separation is a fun fantasy for some. When I was a teenager, we planned for the American invasion. Before you whine about your piddly little complaints, think about the real consequences of what you are suggesting. We live in the most wonderful country in the world. 

Edited February 2, 2022 by Queenmandy85
deleted things not suitable for weak kneed bleeding hearts

[QuebecOverCanada]

2 minutes ago, Queenmandy85 said:

3. The worst senario is most likely. Civil war. A civil war is where you are fighting your siblings, your neighbours, and anyone who you think is responsible for the separation, or vice versa. 

No one will die for the cause of keeping th Western Provinces in Canada. Just like no one wants to die because of Ukraine losing eastern territories to semi autonomous zones that are pro-Russian.

I find that scenario demented with all honesty.

[QuebecOverCanada]

28 minutes ago, TreeBeard said:

I feel like the goalposts are blowing in the breeze…  by “richer”, did you mean median income?  Or do you mean a balanced budget?  Two very different things.  I would measure wealth by the median income.

NL has the lowest median income in Canada.  You expect their tax base to be larger…. Why?  

 

So how come Newfies don't have the excellent budgets Western Provinces have, despite the incredible amount of resources?

Mismanagement.

South Korea has 0 resource almost and is way richer than a country like the Philippines.

[West]

52 minutes ago, TreeBeard said:

You think people who make more income shouldn’t be taxed more?  Should everyone just pay a flat $2000, whether rich or poor?

What about a flat (pick a %)

The current boutique tax credits are basically legalized bribery by the government 

Edited February 2, 2022 by West

[TreeBeard]

5 minutes ago, QuebecOverCanada said:

So how come Newfies don't have the excellent budgets Western Provinces have, despite the incredible amount of resources?

Mismanagement.

South Korea has 0 resource almost and is way richer than a country like the Philippines.

If they had incredible amounts of resources, on par with the West, wouldn’t their median incomes be higher?  They’re in last place  

 

[QuebecOverCanada]

2 minutes ago, TreeBeard said:

If they had incredible amounts of resources, on par with the West, wouldn’t their median incomes be higher?  They’re in last place  

 

They would manage it like Newfies so I doubt it.

[ironstone]

3 hours ago, EastCanada90 said:

sigh are the west still crying? jesus i mean he bought a pipeline for you guys with like 4.5billion of our money..  what else do you whiny western people want?

No offense, but the Atlantic provinces are heavily subsidized by the "west". You should be eternally grateful for the enormous amount of money that has flowed into your province. How would you feel if it were the other way around and the west was siphoning billions from the Atlantic provinces for decades?

[cougar]

6 hours ago, West said:

should the west consider demanding the same level of independence as Quebec and look at separating? 

What "West"

If you think that I in BC agree to be lumped together with Alberta you are so wrong!

Yes, I wish we can separate as an independent province.  The only province I would consider partnering with is the Yukon.

[Queenmandy85]

10 minutes ago, QuebecOverCanada said:

No one will die for the cause of keeping th Western Provinces in Canada. Just like no one wants to die because of Ukraine losing eastern territories to semi autonomous zones that are pro-Russian.

I find that scenario demented with all honesty.

You want to bet?  You don't think there are people loyal to this country who would fight to protect it? Yes, the tactics are demented, but so is someone who would try to wreck this country.

[TreeBeard]

6 minutes ago, QuebecOverCanada said:

They would manage it like Newfies so I doubt it.

Is it more likely that it’s a case of not knowing how to extract the resource, or is it more likely that you’re wrong about how much natural resources NL has access to?

Again, median income is last in NL.  So, it would seem to me that it wouldn’t take a mathematical genius to realize that they would pay less income taxes in that region.

[Queenmandy85]

3 minutes ago, ironstone said:

No offense, but the Atlantic provinces are heavily subsidized by the "west". You should be eternally grateful for the enormous amount of money that has flowed into your province. How would you feel if it were the other way around and the west was siphoning billions from the Atlantic provinces for decades?

It wasn't that long ago that Saskatchewan and Alberta were getting equalization transfers, before oil was discovered in Alberta.

[TreeBeard]

6 minutes ago, ironstone said:

No offense, but the Atlantic provinces are heavily subsidized by the "west". You should be eternally grateful for the enormous amount of money that has flowed into your province. How would you feel if it were the other way around and the west was siphoning billions from the Atlantic provinces for decades?

The West?  Or by Canada as whole?  Doesn’t Ontario contribute to those taxes that “subsidize the Atlantic provinces”?

 

And what about The North?  Highest median income per capita means highest income taxes paid per capita.  (Although, Northern Living Allowance may drop that somewhat).

Edited February 2, 2022 by TreeBeard

[West]

6 minutes ago, Queenmandy85 said:

You want to bet?  You don't think there are people loyal to this country who would fight to protect it? Yes, the tactics are demented, but so is someone who would try to wreck this country.

Nobody wants to separate. We just don't want to be disrespected by the Karens out in Ontario anymore who demand that our truckers bring them food and shut up about what they feel is right for their own bodies.

History shows when you have demented leaders people push back

Edited February 2, 2022 by West

[ironstone]

2 minutes ago, Queenmandy85 said:

It wasn't that long ago that Saskatchewan and Alberta were getting equalization transfers, before oil was discovered in Alberta.

I'm sure that Alberta has paid way more than they ever received in equalization.

Alberta has paid $611 Billion in transfer payments from 1961 to 2017 | The Post Millennial