Ontario needs to invest in EVs as a realistic Option.

[CdnFox]

2 hours ago, Perspektiv said:

Car parts still wear. You still have to replace wipers, brake pads, rotors, calipers, wheel rotations etc.

That's the same regardless of vehicle. I'm sure you're not suggesting EV's don't have windshield wipers

2 hours ago, Perspektiv said:

Car accidents could become staggering in price. Especially if a battery is compromised.

Well that's what insurance is for.

2 hours ago, Perspektiv said:

Gas is king.

And that's why it costs so much.  Whereas electricity is pretty cheap, depending where you live.

But it's like i said - depends on the variables. Many can't change their own oil. On the other hand some places electricity is very expensive.  Compare BC for example to chicago or detriot - electricity is a quarter of the price in bc - and gas is about 1/3 the price in those places. So - for someone living in bc who's got a predictable regular daily commute and the ability to charge at home, living in one of the major metros where gas tax is through the roof and it's 1.80 a litre and not likely to go down....  well suddenly that might be a pretty big money saver.  For a while there all i had was my truck which is good on gas for a TRUCK - and i had to go into work which is a fairly long ways away. I was spending upwards of 600 bucks a month on gas. Dropping that to 50 bucks in electricity or less leaves a lot of room for savings.

Now i almost never go into the office, i'm spending about 50- 100 dollars a month in gas,  That's even tho gas has gone up.  So - NOW is it worth it? Well probably not.

I just don't think you can make blanket statements about it being the best choice for everyone or a horrible idea for everyone. It just really depends.

[Perspektiv]

18 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

I just don't think you can make blanket statements about it being the best choice for everyone

Correct. Gas is the best choice for most.

Numbers don't lie.

[herbie]

Best and sales numbers don't belong together. Unless you're an HP and F150 fanboy.

If you live in the burbs and only need to go to work or shopping gas is far from the beat choice. Wasn't even back in the 1980s when propane conversions were under $3000

[Perspektiv]

2 hours ago, herbie said:

If you live in the burbs and only need to go to work or shopping

Many love to do road trips. To travel with their cars. You need a vehicle that is as useful as it is flexible. 

EVs aren't where they need to be to be the best option, which is why many are still staying away from the technology.

[herbie]

So how many times do I have to say it? Keep an ICE vehicle for road trips, use an EV to go to work.

[Perspektiv]

18 minutes ago, herbie said:

Keep an ICE vehicle for road trips, use an EV to go to work.

Or buy an ICE that does both. O_o

This reminds me of some vegans I have worked with who has hard-core views scolding me because I eat meat, and urging me to taste "better" alternatives that taste "exactly the same".

It's not the same, which is why most will continue to eat meat, and the same can be said doe EVs.

[CdnFox]

42 minutes ago, Perspektiv said:

Or buy an ICE that does both. O_o

 

Why. If you're a two person two car family why wouldn't it make sense to have one of each if you're in that profile where an EV is a better choice 90 percent of the time. I actually know people like that, they are able to use the vehicle that makes the most sense the vast majority of the time and feel they benefit from it financially.

I swear Boges just wants them to be awesome and near perfect for everyone and you just want them to be terrible and the worst choice for everyone.  If you two had a kid we'd probably get a little closer to reality

If the infrastructure was in place they'd probably be a very good option for about 40 - 50 percent of people. maybe a hair more, in a province like bc with cheap electricity. The infrastructure isn't in place and even 50 percent wouldn't justify banning the sale of ICE vehicles like trudeau wants, but it'll slowly move forward. At some time the tech will catch up. It's a natural progression.

 

[Perspektiv]

4 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

If the infrastructure was in place they'd probably be a very good option for about 40 - 50 percent of people.

Add to that the battery technology which is lagging behind where it should be, and you can bet yourself I'd be first in line to buy one. For now, an efficient gas vehicle is a better option to me.

[CdnFox]

1 hour ago, Perspektiv said:

Add to that the battery technology which is lagging behind where it should be, and you can bet yourself I'd be first in line to buy one. For now, an efficient gas vehicle is a better option to me.

Sure.  me too. And for others it isn't and they buy EV's which is good because it does encourage the industry to keep advancing and coming out with better products.

[Perspektiv]

4 hours ago, CdnFox said:

it does encourage the industry to keep advancing and coming out with better products.

Elon Musk understands the importance of developing better batteries along with making his vehicles more affordable.

He is already moving in the right direction by making production cheaper with far more efficient techniques, but whoever can come up with the best battery, along with finding a way to drive cost way down, will have the keys to the massive market segment that is left behind by most EV makers.

[herbie]

Quit with the 'infrastructures not in place' and look out your window. It's going into place as you complain.

The only reason I don't own a BEV is because I live way up in the boonies and it's an all day 400 km round trip to specialists, major shopping & decent dining. There are cars than can do that already but I don't like cars. Squishing into one with your head pressed down by the roof, ass dragging on the pavement, passenger pressed against you. Bleaaghh!

I have 2 SUVs right now but as I lost my wife last winter one just sits there, didn't even put 1,000 km on it last year. I'll probably sell both and get myself a hybrid SUV in the next year or so.

[CdnFox]

11 hours ago, Perspektiv said:

Elon Musk understands the importance of developing better batteries along with making his vehicles more affordable.

He is already moving in the right direction by making production cheaper with far more efficient techniques, but whoever can come up with the best battery, along with finding a way to drive cost way down, will have the keys to the massive market segment that is left behind by most EV makers.

True, that is the key. It's all about the batteries (or generator) in the future for sure. That's what will make them practical for all.

[CdnFox]

1 hour ago, herbie said:

Quit with the 'infrastructures not in place' and look out your window. It's going into place as you complain.

It isn't. And as someone who has to deal with this quite a bit i'm here to tell you it's not going to be easy or fast or cheap to eventually do it. Sorry.

it's one thing for a small percent of the segment to have EV's, but it would be a massive massive undertaking to make it so everyone could in the very near future.

[Perspektiv]

1 hour ago, herbie said:

Quit with the 'infrastructures not in place' and look out your window.

All my neighbors have ICE vehicles in their driveways. Every single one. 

Do a 2KM radius. Nothing but gas stations.

The technology is not in place.

10 to 15 minutes to charge a vehicle to me, is ridiculous. Not being able to fill it fully, as you will wear down the battery over time, is ridiculous.

This is perfect for some, but incredibly inconvenient for most.

Hybrids are only efficient if driven in the appropriate conditions. Horrible for highway driving.

The technology is not there yet. The infrastructure is not there yet.

The affordability of the technology is not there yet.

EVs are niche at best.

[herbie]

Stand there and complain to a rumbling volcano if you wish.

But Ontario of all places should take your attitude only if it wishes to lose what little of what manufacturing is left.

[CdnFox]

1 hour ago, herbie said:

Stand there and complain to a rumbling volcano if you wish.

That seems very oddly specific.

Quote

But Ontario of all places should take your attitude only if it wishes to lose what little of what manufacturing is left.

Ontario will build whatever cars their car lords and masters tell them to.  THe question is what should their lords and masters be building?

Obviously pretty much everyone is in agreement that a healthy percent should be EV's. But i don't think very many automotive manufacturers will be in buseiness long if they're not making some ice models as well, at least for the foreseeable future.

[Boges]

Some good news. 

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/london/volkswagen-ev-battery-plant-ontario-1.6777144

Quote

The Ontario government has announced Volkswagen's first electric vehicle (EV) battery manufacturing plant will be built in St. Thomas, on Talbot Line near Yarmouth Centre Road, close to the city's airport. 

The announcement, released Monday by the office of Vic Fedeli, the province's minister of economic development and trade, is the first public confirmation of the deal that has long been rumoured to be in the works. 

The German auto giant said production is set to begin in 2027, calling it its first overseas "gigafactory" for battery cell manufacturing. 

"I think that means a very large plant with a very large workforce," said St Thomas Mayor Joe Preston on Monday. "We're already clearing the land and getting things ready for as fast as a construction that we can do." 

 

And as predicted, Battery Tech continues to evolve to be both cheaper, and less dependent on Rare Earth Metals. 

https://www.technologyreview.com/2023/02/17/1068814/meet-the-new-batteries-unlocking-cheaper-electric-vehicles/

Quote

Also known as lithium ferrous phosphate (LFP) batteries, the type to be produced at the new plant are a lower-cost alternative to the nickel- and cobalt-containing batteries used in most electric vehicles in the US and Europe today. While the technology has grown in popularity in China, Ford’s factory, developed in partnership with the Chinese battery giant CATL, marks a milestone in the West. By cutting costs while also boosting charging speed and extending lifetime, LFP batteries could help expand EV options for drivers. 

 

Edited March 14, 2023 by Boges

[CdnFox]

2 hours ago, Boges said:

And as predicted, Battery Tech continues to evolve

Well.... actually that's a step backwards. That's what we used to have. They're revamping it to make batteries easier to make without the more expensive newer tech.

But sure, if it drives costs down and makes manufacture easier then more power to them. But they still need the same amount of lithium

[Boges]

9 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

But sure, if it drives costs down and makes manufacture easier then more power to them. But they still need the same amount of lithium

AFIK Lithium isn't a terribly rare Earth Metal. 

https://oilprice.com/Energy/Energy-General/No-The-World-Isnt-Running-Out-Of-Lithium.html#:~:text=U.S. geological survey the world,million tonnes of lithium resources.

It's just energy intensive to extract. So will Hydrogen and so are the Tar Sands. 

Mining priorities will have to shift. 

 

Edited March 14, 2023 by Boges

[ironstone]

It's pretty costly to subsidize this kind of business.

Chris Selley: Canada's needless corporate welfare for Volkswagen just insults our intelligence (msn.com)

In other news, Tesla is going to build a new plant in Mexico. Presumably the cost of labour is a big factor.

[Perspektiv]

29 minutes ago, ironstone said:

Presumably the cost of labour is a big factor.

I don't understand how an electric car maker can compete with a cheaper ICE car, without sending some of their manufacturing to cheaper locations.

[Perspektiv]

On 3/14/2023 at 12:25 PM, Boges said:

It's just energy intensive to extract.

Its also polluting when you consider the consequences of its extraction.

Isn't electric supposed to be clean energy?

So shouldn't its sources be clean?

Shouldn't the grid that powers them be clean?

Clean to me, should indicate renewable. Like Aluminum. Infinitely recyclable. 

Its in your best interest to recycle, as is insanely valuable. This provides incentive for the behavior.

People who understand business and consumer behaviors, should be the ones implementing policies. Not woke politicians who don't analyze the unintended consequences.

[Boges]

23 hours ago, Perspektiv said:

Its also polluting when you consider the consequences of its extraction.

Isn't electric supposed to be clean energy?

So shouldn't its sources be clean?

Shouldn't the grid that powers them be clean?

In developed parts of the world where EVs will be adopted first. Often the source of Energy is Clean. 

Even LNG is much cleaner than Coal or Oil and if you're using LNG to power your personal transportation system with the gradual scale back of Gasoline and Crude Oil, I see a net benefit there. 

I read this week that even Alberta is at the point where they're almost off of Coal. 

The only real reason to stick with Coal, at this point, is stubbornness. 

Quote

 

Clean to me, should indicate renewable. Like Aluminum. Infinitely recyclable. 

Its in your best interest to recycle, as is insanely valuable. This provides incentive for the behavior.

People who understand business and consumer behaviors, should be the ones implementing policies. Not woke politicians who don't analyze the unintended consequences.

 

Where items are sensible to recycle it is they are. People are so focused on society's inability to recycle plastic, because collecting and re-purposing plastic is not worth anyone's time or money. It's just easier make new plastic to try and ban it. 

But there's no issues with metals, glass or paper polluting the oceans, because recycling those product are financially possible. 

Again this thread is just full of prediction, but when the current generation of EVs reach their end of life in the next 5-10 years, I can't see the rare earth metals that everyone complains are so difficult to extract just being thrown in the ocean or a landfill. Old cars are always scavenged for useful components. It's an actual industry. 

[Perspektiv]

15 minutes ago, Boges said:

Often the source of Energy is Clean

If you're pressuring people to adopt it, shouldn't it be always that this is the case?

19 minutes ago, Boges said:

Old cars are always scavenged for useful components. It's an actual industry. 

Thats fair, but if the overall footprint of the car is similar, how is this taking a step forward?

IE Where the engine, glass and metals of the vehicle get recycled, but same old for the tires, or in the event of an EV, parts of the engine that are impossible to recycle.

[Perspektiv]

I just don't see the benefit in buying an EV for most people.

Once that is resolved, you will see the sale of these vehicles explode.

My wife wants us to buy a pickup truck next.

Let's say I buy an F150 Lightning. I am forced to sacrifice immensely on range, on towing capacity, in just about every single bracket of performance that there is. 

I can buy a 3.2L engine, and get great fuel economy, no fuel insecurity, and pay a mere fraction of the price for a mid-range model. 

If I want a power source, I just get an inverter installed.

Still a bargain, vs a Lightning.

I could literally get a top trim, with accessories out the Ying yang, and still be better off. 

Sounds like a horrible deal to me.