Canada at the start of Delta dominated fourth Covid wave, so get vaccinated to save lives.

[Shady]

It’s really not a difficult concept.

[Cannucklehead]

24 minutes ago, Goddess said:

Imma say it louder for the people in the back:

You. Can't. Spread. Diseases. You. Don't. Have.

What if you do have them?  There are people who want the vaccine but cannot take it due to allergies/medical conditions.  

 

Should we round them up and lock them away to keep them safe from people who don't want the vaccine because they just don't want it?  

[Goddess]

On 10/20/2021 at 7:55 AM, Aristides said:

Good old Goddess, f*** that old guy, I gotta be me.

And that goes for several posters here.

Why don't we ask elderly and terminally ill people what THEY want?  You know since they are the ones mainly dying of covid.

"Hey, person with a week/month left to live - we can vaccinate you against a flu, which may or may not work, 

OR

We can shut down all of society, force everyone else to take an experimental vaccine that we have no clue what the long-term effects are, fire people from their jobs if they don't want to be part of the experiment, force children (who are at almost 0% risk from covid) to vaccinate Oh! and a certain percentage of children will develop life-long heart problems, possible infertility, definite convulsions and neurological violent shaking for the rest of their lives, young women will possibly bleed uncontrollably for months (Years?), people will lose their businesses and the entire economy will go into the crapper."

I already know what you would choose.  You don't give a crap how other people will suffer, so long as you get those extra few days of life and the illusion of safety.

I beg to differ on who is saying F*** everyone else.

[Aristides]

54 minutes ago, Goddess said:

Why don't we ask elderly and terminally ill people what THEY want?  You know since they are the ones mainly dying of covid.

"Hey, person with a week/month left to live - we can vaccinate you against a flu, which may or may not work, 

OR

We can shut down all of society, force everyone else to take an experimental vaccine that we have no clue what the long-term effects are, fire people from their jobs if they don't want to be part of the experiment, force children (who are at almost 0% risk from covid) to vaccinate Oh! and a certain percentage of children will develop life-long heart problems, possible infertility, definite convulsions and neurological violent shaking for the rest of their lives, young women will possibly bleed uncontrollably for months (Years?), people will lose their businesses and the entire economy will go into the crapper."

I already know what you would choose.  You don't give a crap how other people will suffer, so long as you get those extra few days of life and the illusion of safety.

I beg to differ on who is saying F*** everyone else.

Why don't you ask them what they want. Maybe they will be willing to sacrifice their lives so you can be you.

Who is being forced to vaccinate?

What exactly are you having to sacrifice? Is wearing a mask in indoor public places just too much for you?

Edited October 21, 2021 by Aristides

[Zeitgeist]

4 hours ago, Aristides said:

Why don't you ask them what they want. Maybe they will be willing to sacrifice their lives so you can be you.

Who is being forced to vaccinate?

What exactly are you having to sacrifice? Is wearing a mask in indoor public places just too much for you?

It’s not just in public indoor spaces.  Do you work outside of home?   It’s about much more than masking.  Is hopeful compliance removing restrictions?   

[Aristides]

2 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

It’s not just in public indoor spaces.  Do you work outside of home?   It’s about much more than masking.  Is hopeful compliance removing restrictions?   

Compliance is the only thing that will remove restrictions. The virus doesn't care what we think or what we consider our rights. Rights are a human invention, nature couldn't give a crap about them.

[myata]

9 hours ago, Shady said:

It’s really not a difficult concept.

The line is drawn at forced vaccinations. In specific and limited situations where it can be justified, it has to be disclosed to employees upfront as a condition of employment. Otherwise, many questions need to be discussed and answered before even considering such possibility. It beats my mind to see how such a serious matter is pressed thoughtlessly only on a political whim. Just shows how close we drifted, in the post-war prosperity bliss, to authoritarianism and dictatorship. Where citizens sleep liberty departs.

[Zeitgeist]

3 hours ago, Aristides said:

Compliance is the only thing that will remove restrictions. The virus doesn't care what we think or what we consider our rights. Rights are a human invention, nature couldn't give a crap about them.

Yet we’re approaching near universal compliance.  What argument do you have left?

[Aristides]

6 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Yet we’re approaching near universal compliance.  What argument do you have left?

In BC, 68% of ICU cases are not fully vaccinated. 68% from 16% of the population. It is now a pandemic of the unvaccinated. What argument do you have left?

[Zeitgeist]

2 minutes ago, Aristides said:

In BC, 68% of ICU cases are not fully vaccinated. 68% from 16% of the population. It is now a pandemic of the unvaccinated. What argument do you have left?

Why are you coming at me with this?  I’m fully vaccinated and so is my family.  I’m not an anti-vaxxer.   Nice try putting me in a box.

The vaccination rates will increase and Covid deaths are decreasing, but you’ll never get the entire population vaccinated and even if you did, Covid would persist.  We need to end restrictions and move on.  I know you want to hound people into submission, but that attitude will just maintain oppressive  and unnecessary policies.  

Edited October 22, 2021 by Zeitgeist

[Aristides]

1 minute ago, Zeitgeist said:

Why are you coming at me with this?  I’m fully vaccinated and so is my family.  I’m not an anti-vaxxer.   Nice try putting me in a box.   

I didn't put you in a box. Did I call you an antivaxxer? Point is, it is the unvaccinated who are still driving this pandemic and putting the health care system under stress.

 

[Zeitgeist]

Just now, Aristides said:

I didn't put you in a box. Did I call you an antivaxxer? Point is, it is the unvaccinated who are still driving this pandemic and putting the health care system under stress.

 

What stress? Cite evidence.  

[Aristides]

Just now, Zeitgeist said:

What stress? Cite evidence.  

Doctors and nurses are telling us every day. Over 40 unvaccinated Covid ICU cases have had to be airlifted south from Northern Health. Surgeries and other treatments have been postponed indefinitely, so don't break a hip because you will have to wait weeks for an operation. What else do you need?

[myata]

Enough, enough of cases, airlifted, ICU babble. This doesn't happen in normal countries. There's no shortage of resources in the systems of standard quality with competent professionals in managing the disease, not the population. They have achieved much better results without having to shut everything down once. Every time scary cases, shortages, (inflated) ICU etc mentioned as purported reason it is actually an excuse for ineptitude, incompetence and ineffective waste of public resources, including on obscene compensations and entitlements of the management. And excuses only encourage these practices and as a logical issue, dismal state of the system to continue - indefinitely.

[TreeBeard]

4 hours ago, myata said:

Enough, enough of cases, airlifted, ICU babble. This doesn't happen in normal countries. There's no shortage of resources in the systems of standard quality with competent professionals in managing the disease, not the population. They have achieved much better results without having to shut everything down once. Every time scary cases, shortages, (inflated) ICU etc mentioned as purported reason it is actually an excuse for ineptitude, incompetence and ineffective waste of public resources, including on obscene compensations and entitlements of the management. And excuses only encourage these practices and as a logical issue, dismal state of the system to continue - indefinitely.

That may be so, but don’t we have to work with the system we currently have?  Or would you prefer to overwhelm the crappy system as a punishment to ourselves?

[myata]

In Austria (population 8.9 million) the total ICU capacity is 2,000 beds. In Quebec (population 8.9 million) with 95 patients the "the system is running at 155%" (minister). That would be less than 5% (five) of Austria's capacity.

In Ontario (population 14.7 million) ICU utilization of around 300 earlier this fall caused cries of doom and catastrophe. In Austria, it would have been 15% of the total capacity.

Can you see the difference? Spend uncounted amounts of public dollars on yourself; for decades, dive and swim in public money; appoint yourself obscene multi-hundred-thousand compensations and million-dollar golden parachutes; but when the system is actually needed, all you can produce is aiiii! and oiiii!!! and let's have another lockdown! Sounds like effective management of public resources, Canada style.

[myata]

The number of ICU and equivalent beds in Finland (population 5 million) is 450-500 (source). Proportional to population of Ontario, that would be equivalent to approximately 1,500 beds, of which the recent Covid admissions peak would reach around 20%.

So what did the public get in return for ridiculous compensations of the top PH management? Looks like in decades of blissful ignorance and looking the other way we've made it quite a way down to the third-world condition. And barely even noticed. And not like even interested to notice and know.

Are we edging toward the state where nothing more is going to happen here, and every trivial jerking of a bum or lifting hand by the public bureaucracy will cost the society more and more, until with a screech the whole thing ceases and halts? Destination: Mexico.

[Aristides]

1 hour ago, myata said:

In Austria (population 8.9 million) the total ICU capacity is 2,000 beds. In Quebec (population 8.9 million) with 95 patients the "the system is running at 155%" (minister). That would be less than 5% (five) of Austria's capacity.

In Ontario (population 14.7 million) ICU utilization of around 300 earlier this fall caused cries of doom and catastrophe. In Austria, it would have been 15% of the total capacity.

Can you see the difference? Spend uncounted amounts of public dollars on yourself; for decades, dive and swim in public money; appoint yourself obscene multi-hundred-thousand compensations and million-dollar golden parachutes; but when the system is actually needed, all you can produce is aiiii! and oiiii!!! and let's have another lockdown! Sounds like effective management of public resources, Canada style.

That’s on top of the requirement for all the non Covid ICU patients. Do you think they all disappeared when Covid arrived? Why is that so hard for all you deniers to understand.

Do you honestly think getting rid of a few high salaries would be enough to pay for hundreds of more ICU beds and the highly trained people to staff them? How much is it worth to you to have those beds and staff standing by in case there is a pandemic? Austria spends about 10% more per capita and is a small centralized country without Canada’s logistical and regional problems.

Does Austria have a single health care system or ten separate provincial systems plus federal systems for territories? How much does their management make?

Same goes for Finland.

Edited October 23, 2021 by Aristides

[Aristides]

On 10/22/2021 at 5:02 AM, myata said:

Enough, enough of cases, airlifted, ICU babble. This doesn't happen in normal countries. There's no shortage of resources in the systems of standard quality with competent professionals in managing the disease, not the population. They have achieved much better results without having to shut everything down once. Every time scary cases, shortages, (inflated) ICU etc mentioned as purported reason it is actually an excuse for ineptitude, incompetence and ineffective waste of public resources, including on obscene compensations and entitlements of the management. And excuses only encourage these practices and as a logical issue, dismal state of the system to continue - indefinitely.

A small hospital In Oklahoma just had an internally hemorrhaging Covid patient die because they were unable to find them a bed that had the facilities to handle this case. They canvassed 40 hospitals in four surrounding states.

[myata]

Question has no relation to the comment that is a bored reiteration of non-existent rationale already discussed at length. Failure is not an explanation nor justification, only a failure. That looks even more dismal given the amounts of public money spent and obscene compensations of the management. Another chat bot sigh.

[Aristides]

29 minutes ago, myata said:

Question has no relation to the comment that is a bored reiteration of non-existent rationale already discussed at length. Failure is not an explanation nor justification, only a failure. That looks even more dismal given the amounts of public money spent and obscene compensations of the management. Another chat bot sigh.

I know, everything that is wrong in the world is because someone else makes too much money.

[myata]

Wouldn't it be logical to expect that replacing ridiculously paid bureaucrats who delivered substandard if not dismal results with no relation to their compensation with reasonably paid (relative to the reality of country see e.g. "median salary, Canada") competent professionals would make a difference, eventually?

[myata]

3 minutes ago, Aristides said:

I know, everything that is wrong in the world is because someone else makes too much money.

on public dime with no relation to delivered result (fixed it for you).

[Aristides]

10 minutes ago, myata said:

Wouldn't it be logical to expect that replacing ridiculously paid bureaucrats who delivered substandard if not dismal results with no relation to their compensation with reasonably paid (relative to the reality of country see e.g. "median salary, Canada") competent professionals would make a difference, eventually?

Didn’t answer any of my questions but I get it. Everything that is wrong with the world is because someone else is over paid or incompetent. Kind of let’s you off the hook for everything.

[myata]

If someone is paid outrageously for producing any, including dismal results there's certainly something wrong with it, on the scale where wrong means bad result and good means excellent. Your questions were answered many times before and repeating them will be ignored for the obvious reason. Failure, substandard and incompetent performance is not an: explanation; excuse; rationale; justification. It's only a failure to deliver what one was hired and paid for by the society.

And as long as we accept mediocre and substandard results with ever more obscene compensations what kind of system do you think we will have, logically: Finland and Austria system? Or Mexico system?

Edited October 23, 2021 by myata