Canada at the start of Delta dominated fourth Covid wave, so get vaccinated to save lives.

[CITIZEN_2015]

9 minutes ago, myata said:

If vaccines are effective, when are blank and uniform restrictions on Canadians are coming down? Maybe and should is not the right answer, in a democracy.

You don't know the meaning of democracy but keep using it.

Democracy means that we freely elect a group of people to govern us. That is the elected governments make decisions on our behalf rather than each individual citizen demanding his or her desire. The democratically elected people will consult the experts in the field to make the best of decisions for the good of entire population. At this time those experts are advising the governments to keep some sort of restrictions and governments are acting on those advice. This is democracy at work.

[myata]

I don't mind supporting statements with evidence unlike some cases here. Here we have the risk of dying from Covid, average individual without vaccination: 0.5 - 1%. In the same source, vaccines reduce the risk of hospitalization due to Covid by over 90%, i.e. to 0.05 - 0.1%.

The risk of serious complications due to flu can be found in the literature, estimated in some sources to around 0.1%.

Driving fatality risk (risk of fatal driving accident) in Ontario is 0.61%.

How and with what the ongoing restrictions are justified? When are they coming down?

P.S. our "professionals" are known to be in notoriously complex relationship with Grade 3 math. 30% of non vaccinated from 12 million adult population makes 3.5 million, not six. Now how many are chain smokers, drug users, seriously overweight and suffering from other conditions? What blank and uniform restrictions did it result in?

[OftenWrong]

24 minutes ago, myata said:

If vaccines are effective, when are blank and uniform restrictions on Canadians are coming down? Maybe and should is not the right answer, in a democracy.

The vaccines are by now as effective as they're gonna be. Once you reach a certain level that's about it. Applying intense pressure to get the additional few percent is not going to radically alter matters, and anyone who thinks that it will is confused.

[OftenWrong]

An example for all- Today we hear that in various colleges and universities and in all federal workplaces, vaccination will be mandatory. For schools that means all students, staff and visitors as well. But are they going to allow in-class attendance at these facilities? Answer is No. Despite that every person is vaccinated, in-class learning will still be restricted to the minimal amount that is necessary, in which case everyone must still wear masks and social distance.

Keep in mind the absurdity of this position- you aren't allowed to attend our college unless fully vaccinated, and then you must stay home for most if not all courses. This is especially true for any college course and for undergrad courses at universities where there is no lab work involved.

[CITIZEN_2015]

22 minutes ago, myata said:

 

P.S. our "professionals" are known to be in notoriously complex relationship with Grade 3 math. 30% of non vaccinated from 12 million adult population makes 3.5 million, not six.

Six million unvaccinated adult estimate was for Canada (20% of 30 million) not Ontario. Residence of other provinces are Canadians too.

[CITIZEN_2015]

10 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

The vaccines are by now as effective as they're gonna be. Once you reach a certain level that's about it. Applying intense pressure to get the additional few percent is not going to radically alter matters, and anyone who thinks that it will is confused.

It is 19% of adult population who don't have even one dose not just few percent. And it does make a big different between 80% and 90+%.

[Zeitgeist]

15 minutes ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

It is 19% of adult population who don't have even one dose not just few percent. And it does make a big different between 80% and 90+%.

At this point there’s no excuse for not making it to the vaccine clinic unless you’ve made the conscious choice not to, in which case you’re counting on your natural immunity and/or personal protection such as PPE and social distancing. There’s no need to maintain restrictions to protect these people.  Unvaccinated children face more risk from flu.  There has to be a firm end date to the masking madness.  I can’t even get seen in person by a doctor.  I brought my daughter to the hospital and waited six hours to get antibiotics because no doctors turned up until morning and the one who did took two minutes to diagnose her.  Covid-19 has become an excuse to dodge work and healthy social interactions. It’s destroying the economy, mental health, and non-COVID-19 health outcomes.  This madness needs to stop.

We’re destroying society to eliminate the small risk of serious illness from one ailment.  I don’t respect our health authority or government for maintaining this sham.  I don’t respect the petty fear mongers and sucks who don’t understand that living entails a certain amount of risk and bravery is required to have a life worth living.  

Edited August 16, 2021 by Zeitgeist

[Infidel Dog]

I notice there's a lot of 'pick your stat' nonsense coming from the 'masks and mandates forever' crowd.

As an example they used to fall over themselves to give you case increase and any population increase in intensive care. Those are both increasing in Ontario.

But the 'lock it down' guys finally want to talk about death rate this morning - which is decreasing in Ontario.

https://www.cp24.com/news/ontario-reports-526-new-covid-19-cases-no-new-deaths-for-third-day-in-a-row-1.5548705

Some have contended the Delta variant is less deadly than the original. It's possible Ontario has finally opened itself up to treatment with therapeutics. But no these 'the word of officialdom is the word of God' guys like to insinuate without actually saying what they really mean from a selected stat. We know what they're really saying but if we call them on it they'll say we're lying because they never actually specifically said that.

They're saying 'aren't vaccines wonderful. They've eliminated covid deaths in Ontario.'

We don't really know vaccines are the 100% reason for the good death rate decline stat in Ontario over the last few days. 

And why don't they care about case rate and hospitalizations this morning? They used to.

 

[myata]

Until we see with our eyes how it stops we can as well assume that it's not going to stop. Maybe it's the the Lord of the Rings drama playing out right before our eyes, "My Precious!" (aka absolute and non accountable power). There would always be the next, important and absolutely convincing (as long as no critical questioning allowed and evidence not required) justification and rationalization.

[Infidel Dog]

Thanks for the meme idea.

Gollum with a covid vaccine needle. "My precious." And stats the Ontario Gollum guys don't want you to hear from Israel, Iceland, Taiwan and the UK showing an ineffective vaccine and a less scary variant  in the background.

[CITIZEN_2015]

8 minutes ago, Infidel Dog said:

I

We don't really know vaccines are the 100% reason for the good death rate decline stat in Ontario over the last few days. 

And why don't they care about case rate and hospitalizations this morning? They used to.

 

You don't really know anything.

As for rates again:

Of the 526 cases reported Monday (out of 15 million population), Health Minister Christine Elliot said 353 were in individuals who are unvaccinated (out of about 3 million) and 60 were in partially vaccinated people (out of about 1.6 million). The remaining 113 cases were in fully vaccinated people (out of about 10.5 million.

If you had read the report it says that over the weekends there is no data released on hospitalizations so we will have data on that category tomorrow.

[myata]

If vaccines are effective, when are blank, uniform and in some cases, lacking convincing evidence mandatory restrictions are coming down?

[Infidel Dog]

No, I didn't read any actual report, Citizen. Let's pretend you did. Give me the actual quote and a link.

I'll give you one from CP24 this morning.

Quote

According to the province, there are currently 119 people in intensive care with COVID-19 in Ontario, up from 113 last Monday.

BTW, be specific. Show me the stat that says the deaths from 3 days ago were all unvaccinated but now the "precious" is so remarkable that it somehow prevented the unvaccinated from dying 3 days later. I know you didn't actually say that. but I also know what you meant. The precious stopped everybody from dying in Ontario, right?

Edited August 16, 2021 by Infidel Dog

[Infidel Dog]

BTW Citizen I see I cornered you into admitting there might be a problem giving the mRNA shot to children under 12. Why is that? They recommend the first polio vaccine at 2 months.

[CITIZEN_2015]

9 minutes ago, Infidel Dog said:

BTW Citizen I see I cornered you into admitting there might be a problem giving the mRNA shot to children under 12. Why is that? They recommend the first polio vaccine at 2 months.

Geez you are incredible. I challenge you to quote me where I ever said vaccine should be given to under 12. Don't claim a credit where you makeup a claim on alleged say and declare self credit for yourself.

And this is another link other than CP24

https://ottawacitizen.com/news/covid-19-ontario-reports-526-new-cases-no-deaths

And this is another

https://globalnews.ca/news/8115277/ontario-covid-19-cases-august-16-coronavirus/

 

Edited August 16, 2021 by CITIZEN_2015

[myata]

Every day while blank and uniform restrictions continue undermines the case for effectiveness of the vaccines regardless of the muzak of the day.

If it is effective, can be proven and you're confident in it, show it by act not empty chat.

[Infidel Dog]

28 minutes ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

Geez you are incredible. I challenge you to quote me where I ever said vaccine should be given to under 12. Don't claim a credit where you makeup a claim on alleged say and declare self credit for yourself.

Actually, here's the full quote:

  

18 hours ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

Another lie. I never said anything about kids being vaccinated. I have been encouraging eligible people (those over 12) to be vaccinated. The vaccines are currently under investigation if they are safe or not for those under 12 so nobody even suggested that.

So the vaccine is "under investigation" for children under 12. Why? What's the problem. At least you seem willing to admit there's a problem now that you've been cornered into it.

 

Edited August 16, 2021 by Infidel Dog

[Infidel Dog]

And damn, I swear I didn't want that graphic in that post. I tried to download it to my personal files. Somehow repolitics grabbed it or I pushed a wrong button or something. But no matter where I tried to post after that the board software insisted the graphic was going with it.

And you can't delete it. Why couldn't I delete it?

Oh well...it kind of fits.

Edited August 16, 2021 by Infidel Dog

[Shady]

2 hours ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

You don't know the meaning of democracy but keep using it.

Democracy means that we freely elect a group of people to govern us. That is the elected governments make decisions on our behalf rather than each individual citizen demanding his or her desire. The democratically elected people will consult the experts in the field to make the best of decisions for the good of entire population. At this time those experts are advising the governments to keep some sort of restrictions and governments are acting on those advice. This is democracy at work.

Not really.  The elected officials are suppose to write and vote on legislation.  Not issue edicts based on the recommendations of unelected “experts”.

[CITIZEN_2015]

1 minute ago, Shady said:

Not really.  The elected officials are suppose to write and vote on legislation.  Not issue edicts based on the recommendations of unelected “experts”.

Yes really. Duties of governments are not limited to writing and voting on legislations but including that.

[CITIZEN_2015]

31 minutes ago, Infidel Dog said:

Actually, here's the full quote:

  

So the vaccine is "under investigation" for children under 12. Why? What's the problem. At least you seem willing to admit there's a problem now that you've been cornered into it.

 

 

 

Even a non-expert like me knows this. They try the vaccine on a limited number of children in that category and observe them over a certain period of time usually several months for any adverse reactions or safety concerns and if no or little reactions reported without serious illness then they will approve it for that category or group.

Edited August 16, 2021 by CITIZEN_2015

[Goddess]

31 minutes ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

Even a non-expert like me knows this. They try the vaccine on a limited number of children in that category and observe them over a certain period of time usually several months for any adverse reactions or safety concerns and if no or little reactions reported without serious illness then they will approve it for that category or group.

Unfortunately, this won't show long-term effects of the vaccine on children.

So far, the tests have shown a 16% decrease in fertility in trials with mice.  I've said from the beginning that if I was still in my child-bearing years, I'd refuse the vaccine.

[CITIZEN_2015]

44 minutes ago, Goddess said:

 

So far, the tests have shown a 16% decrease in fertility in trials with mice.  I've said from the beginning that if I was still in my child-bearing years, I'd refuse the vaccine.

Link for this statement please. If you do not provide proof for statement like this then this becomes part of campaign of misinformation causing the 6 million hesitancy in this country alone.

https://www.bbc.com/news/health-57552527

https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/conditions-and-diseases/coronavirus/covid-19-vaccines-myth-versus-fact

Edited August 16, 2021 by CITIZEN_2015

[Infidel Dog]

Oh do cut the crap. One of my main bitches with you and for that matter Argus is you're all the time spewing numbers and claims of facts with no links. But you do like to check others and then we might get a link.

Now as to the Japanese study the BBC wants to emphasize and call a fact check. Yes, that particular study was not good science.

3 doctors below who you'll tell me suck and no doubt you can find proggy "fact checkers" who have anecdotes for us on how they suck discuss the issue of reproductive toxicity:

Basically we don't know if there's a problem right now but there is new data and things that suggest concern. And going by the problems thalidomide caused in cellular generations following the tests that authorized that drug we should be cautious.

The other link I gave you of Laura Ingraham talking with the guy who worked on the vaccine also expressed concerns. He was saying that unlike other vaccines the mRNA thing spreads out from point of contact to gather in other locals in the body. The womb was a common gathering point. And the worry is the the mechanism that spikes into cell walls may cause antibodies to attack healthy cells, if not in this cellular generation perhaps in following generations.

Edited August 16, 2021 by Infidel Dog

[CITIZEN_2015]

6 minutes ago, Infidel Dog said:

Oh do cut the crap. One of my main bitches with you and for that matter Argus is you're spewing numbers and claims of facts with no links. But you do like to check others and then we might get a link.

 

I didn't read the rest of your post because you started it with a lie. I always backup my numbers with links. You are a liar and manipulator.