Is Canada becoming a Communist state?

[Yzermandius19]

13 minutes ago, eyeball said:

Nah, it's just a lot easier to get up your noses these days is all.  You're all WAY more sensitive than the old days. Does that mean you're getting more conservative too?

nope

the left are the more sensitive ones

much of the left has just gone insane

all of the smart lefties have caught on

and don't let the existence of anti-libertarian conservatives get in the way of seeing it

don't go down with that ship, eyeball

they aren't worth it

Edited July 23, 2022 by Yzermandius19

[eyeball]

5 minutes ago, Yzermandius19 said:

nope

the left are the more sensitive ones

much of the left has just gone insane

all of the smart lefties have caught on

and don't let the existence of anti-libertarian conservatives get in the way of seeing it

don't go down with that ship, eyeball

they aren't worth it

The left is just becoming more militant is all. And please don't patronize me with some implication that older lefties have caught on to something - we've been watching conservatives getting confused about boys and girls since boys started growing their hair long and girls started wearing pants.  We're simply more amused at the spectacle of it all. 

As for libertarian and anti libertarian they're just two sides of the same coin of selfishness.

[Yzermandius19]

5 minutes ago, eyeball said:

As for libertarian and anti libertarian they're just two sides of the same coin of selfishness.

the libertarian side of that coin doesn't impose their selfishness on others with government force though

the anti-libertarian side does

the libertarian side allows people to make choices they don't approve of

the anti-libertarian side doesn't

Edited July 23, 2022 by Yzermandius19

[eyeball]

20 minutes ago, Yzermandius19 said:

the libertarian side of that coin doesn't impose their selfishness on others with government force though

I'm pretty sure they would if they ever had the chance, they're only human too after all.

As for me, I'd rather impose a degree of transparency on the government that would make George Orwell blush.  And not with force, just the addition of a principle and a few tweaks to the Lobbying Act. I know there's definitely a few conservatives who are willing to go down that road and I doubt there's few if any libertarian or anti-libertarian conservatives amongst them. They seem resolutely dead set against the whole idea.

I was labelled a rational anarchist once for wanting to turn the Telescreens around so everyone could use them to monitor the government. 

As for force? You do the math, there are 337 MP's in Canada's government and 38 million of us.  You can bet libertarians and communists would be brothers in arms if it came down to preventing that from ever happening where they rule.

[Yzermandius19]

56 minutes ago, eyeball said:

I'm pretty sure they would if they ever had the chance, they're only human too after all.

As for me, I'd rather impose a degree of transparency on the government that would make George Orwell blush.  And not with force, just the addition of a principle and a few tweaks to the Lobbying Act. I know there's definitely a few conservatives who are willing to go down that road and I doubt there's few if any libertarian or anti-libertarian conservatives amongst them. They seem resolutely dead set against the whole idea.

I was labelled a rational anarchist once for wanting to turn the Telescreens around so everyone could use them to monitor the government. 

As for force? You do the math, there are 337 MP's in Canada's government and 38 million of us.  You can bet libertarians and communists would be brothers in arms if it came down to preventing that from ever happening where they rule.

those who would use force to compel others to make choices they don't want to make isn't a libertarian

the exception would be choices that harm others against their will

if people want to make choices whose consequences only impact themselves, they are free to do so

if you think libertarians would behave differently

it is because you are projecting your desire to compel the actions of others to conform to your preferences on them

or they are just pretending to be libertarians to score points against their political opposition

but the fact remains there are libertarians who don't play in your false dichotomy

where the two sides seek to impose their ideology on others with government force

and it is those who don't wish to impose their ideology via force who have the moral high ground

not those who do against those who don't

you stoop to the level of the conservatives you most despise when you try and impose your ideology on them as they try to impose theirs on you

their bad behavior doesn't justify your bad behavior

 

rise above the false dichotomy and have some actual principles instead of becoming just like the opposition to fight the opposition, protip

Edited July 23, 2022 by Yzermandius19

[eyeball]

1 hour ago, Yzermandius19 said:

rise above the false dichotomy...

You still don't get it, the only division that really matters to me is between the governed and the government.  There's nothing the least bit false about it.  Virtually everything else that's political is below that in importance AFAIC and I believe the most serious hurdles in front of us are increasingly insurmountable because of trust issues between these two distinct things.

Do you think a good case can be made for believing that governments don't trust the governed even more than the other way around?  Should that matter?

[Yzermandius19]

1 hour ago, eyeball said:

You still don't get it, the only division that really matters to me is between the governed and the government.  There's nothing the least bit false about it.  Virtually everything else that's political is below that in importance AFAIC and I believe the most serious hurdles in front of us are increasingly insurmountable because of trust issues between these two distinct things.

Do you think a good case can be made for believing that governments don't trust the governed even more than the other way around?  Should that matter?

the government being used against the governed

diminishes trust in the government

if that happened less often

that would significantly enhance trust in the government

 

you want more trust in government?

then stop supporting it being used against your political opposition to compel them to make choices that suit your preferences against their will

or you're part of the problem

the more people that stop being part of that problem

the more people will trust the government

the more people keep being part of that problem

the less people will trust the government

and rightly so

 

the most trustworthy governments have the most trustworthy electorates

the most trustworthy electorates have the most trustworthy governments

the least trustworthy governments have the least trustworthy electorates

the least trustworthy electorates have the least trustworthy governments

it's not rocket science

Edited July 23, 2022 by Yzermandius19

[Iceni warrior]

10 hours ago, Dougie93 said:

Glorious Revolution of 1688

the faith of Jerusalem, the reason of Athens

bound by the Protestant Reformation

the founding of the modern liberal state

no man nor office to dictate your beliefs

the Supremacy of God, the rule of Anglo-Saxon law

for Her Majesty defends the right

You have to admire the Dutch.

Led the world in ship building, navigation and trade.

Showed the British how to take over the world.

 

[Iceni warrior]

On 1/13/2022 at 5:52 PM, Zeitgeist said:

Thanks.  I think on the fundamentals we agree.  The consequences now of inaction are too big for Canada to ignore.  The passage of time has made Canada’s position clear.  

You are right but it's not being required to wear a mask during a worldwide pandemic you should be worried about.

It's having to wear one to go down town to protect you from the particulates coming out of millions of vehicle exhausts.

There's not much point worrying about which is the best kind of boot to have on your neck when the world is on fire all around you.

It's the same fear of admitting the truth that leads to denial but its not Communism or Fascism you need to be in fear of.

So I think we agree on the fundamentals too but disagree about the priorities.

 

Edited July 23, 2022 by Iceni warrior

[Zeitgeist]

1 hour ago, Iceni warrior said:

You are right but it's not being required to wear a mask during a worldwide pandemic you should be worried about.

It's having to wear one to go down town to protect you from the particulates coming out of millions of vehicle exhausts.

There's not much point worrying about which is the best kind of boot to have on your neck when the world is on fire all around you.

It's the same fear of admitting the truth that leads to denial but its not Communism or Fascism you need to be in fear of.

So I think we agree on the fundamentals too but disagree about the priorities.

 

I just think climate change is being used as an excuse to impose excessive controls over the population much the same way that Covid was an excuse for increased government controls.  The truth is that our combustion engines pollute far less than they used to and they will soon be regulated out of existence.  Fear narratives are the fuel totalitarians use to justify government overreach: Covid!  Climate change!  Putin!  White supremacy!

My biggest worries today have nothing to do with that hype.  I worry about losing our constitutional rights, economic prosperity, equality, and our meritocracy.   I’m not nearly as worried about the impacts of the crises our government and government-funded media stoke as the impacts of our government’s “solutions”.

That’s the real story, the underlying new policies and approaches that have changed how our society functions in recent years.  People have been put through a ringer of policies that have damaged them socially, emotionally, intellectually, physiologically, and economically in ways we still don’t fully grasp.  Our current government tries to maintain and extend controls where possible.  The dysfunction is getting harder to ignore, whether it’s trying to board a flight at an airport or budget your money to buy fuel, food, or a home.  At least right now we’re allowed to visit people and see their faces indoors, but I don’t count on much anymore. We’ve seen what government can impose on citizens and there’s plenty of so-called “crises” that governments can draw upon to assume more power and control.

 

Edited July 23, 2022 by Zeitgeist

[Dougie93]

8 hours ago, Aristides said:

Do you actually believe Stalin was a communist? 

Hitler was the darling of German industrialists.

So Trudeau is now Stalin?

Trudeau is more like the Romanian dictator Nicolae Ceaușescu

 

[Dougie93]

2 hours ago, Iceni warrior said:

You have to admire the Dutch.

Led the world in ship building, navigation and trade.

Showed the British how to take over the world.

sadly,  Canadians don't know their own history

they don't grasp that King Billy is the one who made that Parliament up on the hill in Ottawa

[Michael Hardner]

54 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

I just think climate change is being used as an excuse to impose excessive controls over the population much the same way that Covid was an excuse for increased government controls.   

Decades of science on a global scale have pushed a common problem to the top of the priority list.

For years the conspiracy people told us that the temperatures weren't rising, where are those people today? I suspect some of them have changed the argument but still believe that this is all being done is some kind of global control narrative.

[Zeitgeist]

Just now, Michael Hardner said:

Decades of science on a global scale have pushed a common problem to the top of the priority list.

For years the conspiracy people told us that the temperatures weren't rising, where are those people today? I suspect some of them have changed the argument but still believe that this is all being done is some kind of global control narrative.

Yup that would be me.  I think it’s totally overblown and unverifiable, especially in terms of the human impact. The question of how much we can actually do to alter it is also unresolved.  Again, reasonable measures that don’t damage the economy are fine.  The joke of course is that human existence is a carbon footprint.  Much of the thinking around fighting climate change is misanthropic. Don’t worry though, demographics will reduce emissions substantially once your generation dies off.  The irony.  Be smart about climate policy.  Lean on technology and play the long game.  I’m far more worried about human freedom and prosperity, including being able to afford food and housing, than theories about what might happen based on weak modelling.

[Iceni warrior]

1 hour ago, Zeitgeist said:

I just think climate change is being used as an excuse to impose excessive controls over the population much the same way that Covid was an excuse for increased government controls.  The truth is that our combustion engines pollute far less than they used to and they will soon be regulated out of existence.  Fear narratives are the fuel totalitarians use to justify government overreach: Covid!  Climate change!  Putin!  White supremacy!

My biggest worries today have nothing to do with that hype.  I worry about losing our constitutional rights, economic prosperity, equality, and our meritocracy.   I’m not nearly as worried about the impacts of the crises our government and government-funded media stoke as the impacts of our government’s “solutions”.

That’s the real story, the underlying new policies and approaches that have changed how our society functions in recent years.  People have been put through a ringer of policies that have damaged them socially, emotionally, intellectually, physiologically, and economically in ways we still don’t fully grasp.  Our current government tries to maintain and extend controls where possible.  The dysfunction is getting harder to ignore, whether it’s trying to board a flight at an airport or budget your money to buy fuel, food, or a home.  At least right now we’re allowed to visit people and see their faces indoors, but I don’t count on much anymore. We’ve seen what government can impose on citizens and there’s plenty of so-called “crises” that governments can draw upon to assume more power and control.

 

Like I say.

Priorities.

I live on a farm in Suffolk, England and for the first time ever the farmer has had to leave a tractor with a harrow attached ready to go in case he needs to make a fire break in a hurry. The muck gulcher has been filled with water ready to use as a makeshift fire pump. The crops are stunted enough due to drought conditions without losing fields full of ripe wheat to fire.

So to me ''the nasty man made me cover my face'' is barely registering and if the actions required to stop this catastrophe from becoming a mass extinction look too much like Communism to some then tough. It's not high on my personal list of priorities.

 

[Yzermandius19]

8 minutes ago, Iceni warrior said:

Like I say.

Priorities.

I live on a farm in Suffolk, England and for the first time ever the farmer has had to leave a tractor with a harrow attached ready to go in case he needs to make a fire break in a hurry. The muck gulcher has been filled with water ready to use as a makeshift fire pump. The crops are stunted enough due to drought conditions without losing fields full of ripe wheat to fire.

So to me ''the nasty man made me cover my face'' is barely registering and if the actions required to stop this catastrophe from becoming a mass extinction look too much like Communism to some then tough. It's not high on my personal list of priorities.

keep in mind Zeitgeist

this is a self proclaimed eco-fascist talking

he is perfectly comfortable with tyrannical government measures to achieve his eco-utopia

because he creates a false dichotomy where the end of life on earth is the only alternative to his bullshit totalitarian agenda

as that is the only way he can think to sell this anti-human Malthusian nonsense

Edited July 23, 2022 by Yzermandius19

[Dougie93]

4 minutes ago, Iceni warrior said:

then tough.

that's a two way street

you wont be able to do much for the environment in the midst of a sectarian civil war

 

[Zeitgeist]

1 minute ago, Yzermandius19 said:

keep in mind Zeitgeist

this is a self proclaimed eco-fascist

he is perfectly comfortable with tyrannical government measures to achieve his eco-utopia

he speaks priorities and his are all out of whack

My whole life there have been periodic droughts, crop failures, and forest fires.  Now such events are referenced as evidence of human-made climate change, which means what?  Squeeze humanity or enslave them until they live in frozen huts by their workplaces or kill themselves?  More people are alive and spread across more areas than ever, so extreme weather events impact more people.  We can adapt.  We can improve technology.  Our population will naturally shrink.  You can only electrocute the mouse so many times before he lies down and takes the shocks without a fight.  That’s where we are with all the fear porn.  Keep calm and carry on and stop adding costs and barriers to citizens.  Life is hard enough.  

[OftenWrong]

1 hour ago, Zeitgeist said:

I just think climate change is being used as an excuse to impose excessive controls over the population much the same way that Covid was an excuse for increased government controls.  The truth is that our combustion engines pollute far less than they used to and they will soon be regulated out of existence.  Fear narratives are the fuel totalitarians use to justify government overreach: Covid!  Climate change!  Putin!  White supremacy!

My biggest worries today have nothing to do with that hype.  I worry about losing our constitutional rights, economic prosperity, equality, and our meritocracy.   I’m not nearly as worried about the impacts of the crises our government and government-funded media stoke as the impacts of our government’s “solutions”.

That’s the real story, the underlying new policies and approaches that have changed how our society functions in recent years.  People have been put through a ringer of policies that have damaged them socially, emotionally, intellectually, physiologically, and economically in ways we still don’t fully grasp.  Our current government tries to maintain and extend controls where possible.  The dysfunction is getting harder to ignore, whether it’s trying to board a flight at an airport or budget your money to buy fuel, food, or a home.  At least right now we’re allowed to visit people and see their faces indoors, but I don’t count on much anymore. We’ve seen what government can impose on citizens and there’s plenty of so-called “crises” that governments can draw upon to assume more power and control.

 

“Never let a crisis go to waste”.

Or waist, for that matter. But that’s how they kill you these days. Softly.

Way I see it, the cost of our extravagance due to industrialization has finally come due. It’s time to pay the piper, whatever that means.

There is no way we humans will cooperate to eliminate our dependence on tech, or reduce our energy consumption (evidence is the past 40 years of history) it must be done by other means. IE forced upon us.

Just as barn animals must be herded.

Communism inserts itself into the dialogue, by creating a false crisis for which it appears to be the only solution. That is how it poisons our youth, by diverting their attention to a false dichotomy.

For example in environmentalism, the government acts as though citizens must be compelled to reduce pollution and waste by force. Reality shows otherwise. While most citizens will sort the hazardous waste from their trash, there are not enough resources to handle it. The government would rather empower themselves, and go after citizens.

[Zeitgeist]

5 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

“Never let a crisis go to waste”.

Or waist, for that matter. But that’s how they kill you these days. Softly.

Way I see it, the cost of our extravagance due to industrialization has finally come due. It’s time to pay the piper, whatever that means.

There is no way we humans will cooperate to eliminate our dependence on tech, or reduce our energy consumption (evidence is the past 40 years of history) it must be done by other means. IE forced upon us.

Just as barn animals must be herded.

Communism inserts itself into the dialogue, by creating a false crisis for which it appears to be the only solution. That is how it poisons our youth, by diverting their attention to a false dichotomy.

For example in environmentalism, the government acts as though citizens must be compelled to reduce pollution and waste by force. Reality shows otherwise. While most citizens will sort the hazardous waste from their trash, there are not enough resources to handle it. The government would rather empower themselves, and go after citizens.

Exactly.  The solutions are rather fake.  They’re touted at election time as actions.  They don’t know whether or how much such solutions will reduce climate change.  I’m not against fighting human made climate change but not if it raises the cost of living or reduces human freedom.  Sorry not sorry.

Edited July 23, 2022 by Zeitgeist

[ExFlyer]

3 hours ago, Iceni warrior said:

You have to admire the Dutch.

Led the world in ship building, navigation and trade.

Showed the British how to take over the world.

 

And then fell into obscurity....?

[Michael Hardner]

1 hour ago, Zeitgeist said:

Yup that would be me.  I think it’s totally overblown and unverifiable, especially in terms of the human impact. 

We can verify that temperature has been increasing since this became a global concern.

If you can at least admit that, I might see that I'm in a discussion with a real person, not a bot.

[Michael Hardner]

5 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

1. There is no way we humans will cooperate to eliminate our dependence on tech, or reduce our energy consumption (evidence is the past 40 years of history) it must be done by other means. IE forced upon us.

2. Communism inserts itself into the dialogue, by creating a false crisis for which it appears to be the only solution.  

1. Why would we need to eliminate tech?  And cooperation can be achieved with technology, once we start building consensus with a public.

2. False?  Seems to me that the far rightism faction in here are the ones trumpeting our current affairs as a major crisis.

Not the burning forests, mind you, but trans women in sports, and being allowed to call people the NWord without being shamed for it... ?

[Iceni warrior]

17 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

that's a two way street

you wont be able to do much for the environment in the midst of a sectarian civil war

 

Best to avoid all that nonsense then and try to create a less divisive society in the future.

Come join me round the campfire for a drum circle and a rousing round of Kumbaya...

[ExFlyer]

7 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

We can verify that temperature has been increasing since this became a global concern.

If you can at least admit that, I might see that I'm in a discussion with a real person, not a bot.

Maybe temperature has been increasing for long before it became a global concern? Maybe someone triggered a global concern and it became a topic on slow news days only to become headlines now??

Thing is, we are hearing temperatures are higher than xx and what that tells me is that temperatures have been high before.

But that is waaay off if Canada is becoming communist topic

Edited July 23, 2022 by ExFlyer