Democracy Falters in the US

[WestCanMan]

1 hour ago, bcsapper said:

I was just wondering where we differed.  What do you think ought to have happened to rioters who broke the law?

People who are caught using violence against others, making serious & credible threats against others, or destroying/stealing property should be charged criminally. And FYI the ones who did it in Portland and Seattle are just as guilty as the ones who did it in DC.

Trump shouldn't be pardoning Capitol Hill rioters, or letting them out of prison without bail, and it wasn't acceptable when the Dems were doing it but you didn't complain, did you....

We differ in that I'm not a hypocrite, you are.

Edited January 11, 2021 by WestCanMan
added the word threats in the first sentence

[Guest]

1 minute ago, WestCanMan said:

People who are caught using violence against others, making serious & credible against others, or destroying/stealing property should be charged criminally. And FYI the ones who did it in Portland and Seattle are just as guilty as the ones who did it in DC.

Trump shouldn't be pardoning Capitol Hill rioters, or letting them out of prison without bail, and it wasn't acceptable when the Dems were doing it but you didn't complain, did you....

We differ in that I'm not a hypocrite, you are.

Well, we actually agree about the vile left.  I'm not sure I believe you about the vile right.

That would make you the hypocrite though.

That said, your slavering obeisance to the ridiculous idea that the election was stolen doesn't have to translate to support for the actions of Trump and his followers on January 06.  If you say you were definitely opposed to the whole thing, I'll believe you.  Thousands wouldn't.

[WestCanMan]

4 minutes ago, BeaverFever said:

Deflecting and moving the goalposts yet again lol. Now you’re re-litigating the Steele dossie instead of discussing the topic at hand.  

I'm just wondering whether or not this latest bit of Russian shenanigans will end up being similar to the last round of Russian shenanigans. What's wrong with that? You broached the topic. 

Quote

Russians didn’t receive any money from Dems by the way.  

How do you know that?

It's 100% certain that the Dems covertly sent money to a foreign spy, and that the spy in question contacted Russians to get dirt on Trump.

Do you know for a fact that the Russians just gave it up freely? How do you know that? Did you ever see Steele answer questions to that effect under oath?

Did CNN probe into the whole sordid affair of Hillary conspiring with foreign spies and Russians? I must have missed that part.

Is it somehow better if the DNC was paying a spy who had Russians working for him for free Beave? Why did Russians work for Hillary, free of charge? Nothing's really free now, is it? Consideration is a cornerstone of any contract or arrangement. What do you think Hillary gave the Russians if not money? This just keeps getting better.... 

 

[WestCanMan]

4 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

Well, we actually agree about the vile left. 

Whoa, whoa, whoa, pump the brakes! Can you give me an example of the vile left? 

Quote

I'm not sure I believe you about the vile right.

That would make you the hypocrite though.

Of course there are people that aren't leftists that are vile, but the fact that they're 'not leftists' that doesn't make those people mainstream 'Conservatives' or 'Republicans' either.

Saying that alt-right nutjobs are representative of Conservatives or Republicans is just BS. 

Mainstream Demonrats and Liberals are actual proven criminals though, and their supporters don't mind, and that's weird. 

If Trump actually colluded with Russia he would have lost his support but the notion of "Russian collusion" itself is just absurd. What did Trump need to pay Russians for that he couldn't have paid Americans for? Do Dems think that there is a shortage of criminals in America? 

Quote

That said, your slavering obeisance to the ridiculous idea that the election was stolen doesn't have to translate to support for the actions of Trump and his followers on January 06.  If you say you were definitely opposed to the whole thing, I'll believe you.  Thousands wouldn't.

HAHAHHAHAAHAHAHAHAHA, ridiculous idea? 

Tell me what's ridiculous:

1) The safest and most secure way to hold a secure election is to have people show up at polling booths with valid ID, unless they have an extremely good reason for being unable to attend in person, or

2) The best way to have an election is to mass mail ballots to everyone who may reside in a state, or who considers a state to be their home state despite the fact that they live in another state where they may be voting as well. Also - if people do want to vote by mail their signature doesn't have to match any signatures that are on record (and why would there be such a record when people don't need ID anyways?). Also, asking people for ID should only be allowed when they are driving, buying guns, buying liquor, applying to university, applying for a job, opening a bank account, taking out library books, or buying cigarettes - it's discrimination to ask people for ID if they want to vote. Also, people who vote by mail can vote after election day. Also, if thousands of votes are cast by dead people, there doesn't need to be an investigation. Also,  it is ok to deny election observers from one of the parties to have access to polling stations to ensure the fairness of the election. 

Sure, I'll admit that the fact that there are thousands of voting irregularities that favour the side whose candidate couldn't get more than 200 people to a rally, and whose side somehow managed to break the record for votes by 5 million isn't proof of fraud or that the election was 'stolen' but it most certainly does mean that the US just had an election whch has the appearance of being bogus. 

[Guest]

29 minutes ago, WestCanMan said:

Whoa, whoa, whoa, pump the brakes! Can you give me an example of the vile left? 

Of course there are people that aren't leftists that are vile, but the fact that they're 'not leftists' that doesn't make those people mainstream 'Conservatives' or 'Republicans' either.

Saying that alt-right nutjobs are representative of Conservatives or Republicans is just BS. 

Mainstream Demonrats and Liberals are actual proven criminals though, and their supporters don't mind, and that's weird. 

If Trump actually colluded with Russia he would have lost his support but the notion of "Russian collusion" itself is just absurd. What did Trump need to pay Russians for that he couldn't have paid Americans for? Do Dems think that there is a shortage of criminals in America? 

HAHAHHAHAAHAHAHAHAHA, ridiculous idea? 

Tell me what's ridiculous:

1) The safest and most secure way to hold a secure election is to have people show up at polling booths with valid ID, unless they have an extremely good reason for being unable to attend in person, or

2) The best way to have an election is to mass mail ballots to everyone who may reside in a state, or who considers a state to be their home state despite the fact that they live in another state where they may be voting as well. Also - if people do want to vote by mail their signature doesn't have to match any signatures that are on record (and why would there be such a record when people don't need ID anyways?). Also, asking people for ID should only be allowed when they are driving, buying guns, buying liquor, applying to university, applying for a job, opening a bank account, taking out library books, or buying cigarettes - it's discrimination to ask people for ID if they want to vote. Also, people who vote by mail can vote after election day. Also, if thousands of votes are cast by dead people, there doesn't need to be an investigation. Also,  it is ok to deny election observers from one of the parties to have access to polling stations to ensure the fairness of the election. 

Sure, I'll admit that the fact that there are thousands of voting irregularities that favour the side whose candidate couldn't get more than 200 people to a rally, and whose side somehow managed to break the record for votes by 5 million isn't proof of fraud or that the election was 'stolen' but it most certainly does mean that the US just had an election whch has the appearance of being bogus. 

The vile left would be the same as the vile right.  Anyone who attempts to impose their political views on others, by any illegal means.  Same as the vile religious.

Alt right nutjobs are representative of whoever decides they represent them.  Same with alt left nutjobs.

The rest of your post is nonsense, and doesn't warrant a reply at this late stage.

[WestCanMan]

1 hour ago, bcsapper said:

The vile left would be the same as the vile right.  Anyone who attempts to impose their political views on others, by any illegal means.  Same as the vile religious.

Alt right nutjobs are representative of whoever decides they represent them.  Same with alt left nutjobs.

The rest of your post is nonsense, and doesn't warrant a reply at this late stage.

Lol. Of course vile is vile.

The difference is that on the left, vile is consistent from bottom to top. 

People like Biden and Trudeau are just as likely to steal from their government as any lowlife BLM rioter is to rob a store. 

All leftists on the street lie about: whether or not using ID to vote is a good idea, whether or not a van attack is proof that we need stricter gun laws, whether or not Democrats are the biggest supporters of anti-Semitism in the US, whether Suleimani was a terrorist or a beloved father figure, whether or not Dr Ford's testimony is credible, whether or not Trudeau's morality is a serious issue, why Rayshard was shot by police, what Brionna was doing when she got shot, etc. It's never ending.

Harper's crimes against the taxpayers of Canada were limited to "maybe he was aware that his party paid back the $90K that Duffy may have (didn't) claim fraudulently". Even the crass pig Donald Trump wasn't a guilty of taking from American taxpayers.

At the very bottom of the right side of the political spectrum is the lowlife. There's no part of the left side of the political spectrum where you don't find lying on every single topic known to man. 

[Guest]

1 minute ago, WestCanMan said:

Lol. Of course vile is vile.

The difference is that on the left, vile is consistent from bottom to top. 

People like Biden and Trudeau are just as likely to steal from their government as any lowlife BLM rioter is to rob a store. 

All leftists on the street lie about: whether or not using ID to vote is a good idea, whether or not a van attack is proof that we need stricter gun laws, whether or not Democrats are the biggest supporters of anti-Semitism in the US, whether Suleimani was a terrorist or a beloved father figure, whether or not Dr Ford's testimony is credible, whether or not Trudeau's morality is a serious issue, why Rayshard was shot by police, what Brionna was doing when she got shot, etc. It's never ending.

Harper's crimes against the taxpayers of Canada were limited to "maybe he was aware that his party paid back the $90K that Duffy may have (didn't) claim fraudulently". Even the crass pig Donald Trump wasn't a guilty of taking from American taxpayers.

At the very bottom of the right side of the political spectrum is the lowlife. There's no part of the left side of the political spectrum where you don't find lying on every single topic known to man. 

So you decided to extend your nonsense to the entire argument because you have no serious points to make.

Remember, the word is "crickets".

[BeaverFever]

3 hours ago, WestCanMan said:

I'm just wondering whether or not this latest bit of Russian shenanigans will end up being similar to the last round of Russian shenanigans. What's wrong with that? You broached the topic. 

How do you know that?

It's 100% certain that the Dems covertly sent money to a foreign spy, and that the spy in question contacted Russians to get dirt on Trump.

Do you know for a fact that the Russians just gave it up freely? How do you know that? Did you ever see Steele answer questions to that effect under oath?

Did CNN probe into the whole sordid affair of Hillary conspiring with foreign spies and Russians? I must have missed that part.

Is it somehow better if the DNC was paying a spy who had Russians working for him for free Beave? Why did Russians work for Hillary, free of charge? Nothing's really free now, is it? Consideration is a cornerstone of any contract or arrangement. What do you think Hillary gave the Russians if not money? This just keeps getting better.... 

 

So this is the thing you guys do where you completely invent a claim and then say “how so you know it’s NOT true”?

And no Steele didn’t have Russians “working for him”.  Getting information from professional contacts doesn’t mean those people “work” for you. People in the intelligence community have all types of contacts and means of collecting info and share information for variety of selfish or altruistic reasons. Besides I thought the Trumpster’s claim was that Steele made the whole thing up.  Isn’t it?

[WestCanMan]

13 hours ago, bcsapper said:

So you decided to extend your nonsense to the entire argument because you have no serious points to make.

Remember, the word is "crickets".

Just because you don't understand it doesn't make it nonsense. It's quite the opposite.

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, WestCanMan said:

Just because you don't understand it doesn't make it nonsense. It's quite the opposite.

No it's not.  There's no arguing with this.  It's a fanatical belief, like flat earth and climate change denial.

 

13 hours ago, WestCanMan said:

There's no part of the left side of the political spectrum where you don't find lying on every single topic known to man. 

I'd just rather not get into that kind of debate.

[Michael Hardner]

Context for the thread:

 

verb (used with object), in·cit·ed, in·cit·ing.

to stir, encourage, or urge on; stimulate or prompt to action:to incite a crowd to riot.

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/incite

[WestCanMan]

12 hours ago, BeaverFever said:

So this is the thing you guys do where you completely invent a claim and then say “how so you know it’s NOT true”?

And no Steele didn’t have Russians “working for him”.  Getting information from professional contacts doesn’t mean those people “work” for you. People in the intelligence community have all types of contacts and means of collecting info and share information for variety of selfish or altruistic reasons. 

So how do you know that Steele didn't pay the Russians? You claim to KNOW that, how so? Were you there when they did the deal? Do you know Steele himself, or the Russians involved? Not many people on earth actually know the answer to that question. 

So why does Christopher Steele just have these amazing "altruistic" Russian contacts? How do you know that these Russians are 'good'? Why do they work for Steele/Clinton for free?

Quote

Besides I thought the Trumpster’s claim was that Steele made the whole thing up.  Isn’t it?

No, the Trump claim is that he never colluded with Russia for election help. 

If he knows that he didn't collude with Russia, then he knows that Steele never got intel about him colluding with Russia, just like I know that I didn't collude with Russia to buy my last car. (Did Russia collude to help you buy your last car? What if Steele finds a Russian who says that you did? If you give a guy enough money he'll probably say anything, right? Are you guilty now? What if the FBI lies to a FISA court to make you look a bit guilty? Would you be guilty at that point?)

The whole point about the Steele thing is that it's not even disputed. It's a 100% certainty that Hillary covertly paid Steele through Perkins Coie law firm, and that he surreptitiously met with some Russians to collude (cooperated in a secretive way) to try to win the election (to get election dirt). 

Isn't that supposed to be bad? I think that I saw something about that somewhere.

Can you explain how what Hillary did wasn't "Russian collusion"? The FBI found no evidence that Trump colluded, but we all know that at least some of Hillary's evidence was made up. COLLUSION!!!! AAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!

[WestCanMan]

6 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

No it's not.  There's no arguing with this.  It's a fanatical belief, like flat earth and climate change denial.

 

I'd just rather not get into that kind of debate.

Find a liberal who won't say that Trump colluded or Trudeau is innocent then.

[Guest]

25 minutes ago, WestCanMan said:

Find a liberal who won't say that Trump colluded or Trudeau is innocent then.

Right.  I'm starting on the GTA phonebook.  I'll get back to you in 2023.

You do see what mean, right?

 

[Beep]

Trump needs to be impeached, removed from office and never be allowed to hold elected office again.  Cruz and Hawley need to be expelled from the Senate and the governor in their  respective states can appoint someone to take their place. With respect to House members the same thing should happen to those that have documented any sort of support for violence or the terrorists that entered the capital.  I know that there is at least one congress rep, Lauren Boebert (R-CO)  that tweeted during the insurrection the details of Pelosi's whereabouts  putting her and other House colleague in mortal danger.  

Edited January 11, 2021 by Beep

[Aristides]

Quote

So why does Christopher Steele just have these amazing "altruistic" Russian contacts? How do you know that these Russians are 'good'? Why do they work for Steele/Clinton for free?

 

Steele was head of the Russia Desk at MI6 between 2006 and 2009. I imagine he has lots of Russian contacts.

[Infidel Dog]

3 hours ago, Beep said:

Trump needs to be impeached, removed from office and never be allowed to hold elected office again.  Cruz and Hawley need to be expelled from the Senate and the governor in their  respective states can appoint someone to take their place. With respect to House members the same thing should happen to those that have documented any sort of support for violence or the terrorists that entered the capital.  I know that there is at least one congress rep, Lauren Boebert (R-CO)  that tweeted during the insurrection the details of Pelosi's whereabouts  putting her and other House colleague in mortal danger.  

Who's really calling for insurrection then?

And you have documented support of nothing regarding Hawley or Cruz or anybody else.

Boebert only tweeted this:

Quote

The Speaker has been removed from the chambers.

The mainstream media was telling us congress was being evacuated from the chambers, for God's sakes.

There was almost immediate video of Pence being evacuated. Do you want to send your MSM to your Gulags too. I doubt it. 

[Infidel Dog]

Those of you who really need to read this one, won't but you should.

Exactly Where and How Did Trump Incite the Mob?

Doesn't matter if you read it though. I'm really posting it for convenience when I need to quote from it. 

 

[Infidel Dog]

Here's a difference between the progsters and myself. I'll admit when I'm wrong.

Earlier I said I couldn't take allegations it was a capitol building guard who was pulled to the ground away from the building doors as proven fact because I hadn't seen one in a black mask.

Since then new video has come out and I've seen one. I've seen a lot more than that from new video though. The guys at the head of the crowd - the provocateurs - pushing down fences, trying to break windows with clubs aren't your typical trump followers. I'll post a video so you can see for yourself. The instigators at the front are hooded, masked, goggled, the odd one with an indicator like a MAGA hat on backward. They're younger than the unsuspecting crowd that follows in genuine MAGA gear.

I've also seen video of real Trump supporters pulling these provocateurs off from their rampages on the building. 

Edited January 11, 2021 by Infidel Dog

[WestCanMan]

1 hour ago, Aristides said:

Steele was head of the Russia Desk at MI6 between 2006 and 2009. I imagine he has lots of Russian contacts.

1) Aristedes, if you want to quote someone in this forum you have to click the 'quote' hotlink at the bottom of their quote so that they're are aware of it. 

2) Well isn't that a swell little story that you're piecing together there now? 

By your logic a Brit can pay his Russian friends (or they're such good friends that they work for free) for false intel, proven false I might add, and use it to try to change the course of an American Presidential election with some help from a few more lies at the FBI, weekly lying sessions from the ranking Demonrat on the House Intel Committee, and even more lies from some high-level CIA dropouts. It all seems so legitimate now. I can see why you would want to throw your hat in with all those guys. So trustworthy right? 

Sorry if this sounds a bit condescending little guy, but there's no way for me to illustrate your point and make it sound less than idiotic while staying within the bounds of truth and reason. 

[WestCanMan]

1 hour ago, Infidel Dog said:

Those of you who really need to read this one, won't but you should.

Exactly Where and How Did Trump Incite the Mob?

Doesn't matter if you read it though. I'm really posting it for convenience when I need to quote from it. 

From your link:

Quote

is to commit the classic logical fallacy of post hoc ergo propter hoc, after this, therefore caused by this

Daaanng. It seems as though I may need to brush up on my classic logical fallacies lol.

Let's see Austin Powers try to say that one.

[DogOnPorch]

1 minute ago, WestCanMan said:

From your link:

Daaanng. It seems as though I may need to brush up on my classic logical fallacies lol.

Let's see Austin Powers try to say that one.

 

Google: Carl Sagan's Baloney Detection Kit.

[WestCanMan]

5 hours ago, bcsapper said:

Right.  I'm starting on the GTA phonebook.  I'll get back to you in 2023.

You do see what mean, right?

You won't find a single liberal in that whole thing who won't spew the exact same disproven horsecrap that I just referred to. Once they see it on CNN or CBC it's gospel to them.

[WestCanMan]

1 minute ago, DogOnPorch said:

 

Google: Carl Sagan's Baloney Detection Kit.

I will actually buy that book. 

My dad used to read Carl Sagan all the time and I've never even opened one of his books. 

[DogOnPorch]

Just now, WestCanMan said:

I will actually buy that book. 

My dad used to read Carl Sagan all the time and I've never even opened one of his books. 

 

Demon Haunted World is my favorite of his. Followed by Cosmos, of course.