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Democracy Falters in the US


ReeferMadness

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Yesterday, in the midst of watching a seditious mob casually walk past an unprepared capitol hill police force, I came across a brilliant tweet:

Quote

The USA is invading the USA to overthrow their own democratically elected government. Makes you wonder about all those other governments the USA has overthrown, doesn't it?

After spending the 20th century undermining democratically elected governments that commit the unforgivable crime of failing to be sufficiently deferential to US business interests, the US became a snake trying to devour it's own tail.

Much attention was paid to Trump and his gang of sycophants.  However, Trumpism is only marginally about Trump.

For decades, across the western world, right wing ideologues (starting with Reagan and Thatcher) have been trashing anything remotely resembling collective action.  Governments have been discredited (conservatives are people who are so convinced governments are incompetent, they elect people who will prove them right) and taxes slashed.  The predictable results have been a diminished sense of individual security as wages stagnated; and healthcare and education retreated towards their traditional roles of being the exclusive preserve of the wealthy.  Even among people doing relatively well, there is a heightened sense of precariousness as these days, anyone can lose their livelihood overnight.  Nowhere is this more pronounced than in the US, where education and healthcare are most expensive, worker protections are weakest and corruption is rampant.

Having been thoroughly inculcated with anti-government ideology, conservatives looked for others to blame for their problems and Trump supplied them with plenty of others - immigrants, Muslims, the media, and, most of all, Democrats.  Hyped up on conspiracy theories, people will now automatically discredit anything that comes from "official" sources and believe whatever they find on the internet that confirms their beliefs.

Many people assume that things will be OK as soon as Trump is out of office but this is far from evident.  Seventy-five million lost souls voted for an evidently delusional, lifelong-crooked failed businessman who has never taken responsibility for anything.  Those people will still be there once Trump leaves. 

 

 

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8 hours ago, ReeferMadness said:

Many people assume that things will be OK as soon as Trump is out of office but this is far from evident.  Seventy-five million lost souls voted for an evidently delusional, lifelong-crooked failed businessman who has never taken responsibility for anything.  Those people will still be there once Trump leaves. 

I saw a post from one today... disillusioned that Pence "back stabbed" their boy he said he was never going to vote again.  These people were never interested in politics, which is the art of compromise in policy making.  They were interested only in getting their way.  Hopefully they'll go back to not participating which probably works best for everyone.

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9 hours ago, ReeferMadness said:

Yesterday, in the midst of watching a seditious mob casually walk past an unprepared capitol hill police force, I came across a brilliant tweet:

After spending the 20th century undermining democratically elected governments that commit the unforgivable crime of failing to be sufficiently deferential to US business interests, the US became a snake trying to devour it's own tail.

Much attention was paid to Trump and his gang of sycophants.  However, Trumpism is only marginally about Trump.

For decades, across the western world, right wing ideologues (starting with Reagan and Thatcher) have been trashing anything remotely resembling collective action.  Governments have been discredited (conservatives are people who are so convinced governments are incompetent, they elect people who will prove them right) and taxes slashed.  The predictable results have been a diminished sense of individual security as wages stagnated; and healthcare and education retreated towards their traditional roles of being the exclusive preserve of the wealthy.  Even among people doing relatively well, there is a heightened sense of precariousness as these days, anyone can lose their livelihood overnight.  Nowhere is this more pronounced than in the US, where education and healthcare are most expensive, worker protections are weakest and corruption is rampant.

Having been thoroughly inculcated with anti-government ideology, conservatives looked for others to blame for their problems and Trump supplied them with plenty of others - immigrants, Muslims, the media, and, most of all, Democrats.  Hyped up on conspiracy theories, people will now automatically discredit anything that comes from "official" sources and believe whatever they find on the internet that confirms their beliefs.

Many people assume that things will be OK as soon as Trump is out of office but this is far from evident.  Seventy-five million lost souls voted for an evidently delusional, lifelong-crooked failed businessman who has never taken responsibility for anything.  Those people will still be there once Trump leaves. 

 

 

Best post I’ve read on here yet.
 

 I would add that the division of powers between the president, senate and house at the federal and state levels means America’s problems are largely unfixable even if a truly great once-in-a-generation leader were to be elected. And despite the 2-party system, the truth of the American system is that each of the 538 lawmakers in congress are independent political actors with their own private and local agendas. 
 

Furthermore Americas bureaucracy is seriously flawed in that so many federal state and local officials including judges, prosecutors and senior law enforcement are elected and therefore also independent political actors with their own agendas. This also includes obscure and mundane roles like county clerk and comptrollers who have no business being elected.   This results in a public service that is more interested in favour-trading, influence-peddling, grandstanding and vote-chasing rather than policy development and program delivery. 

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10 hours ago, ReeferMadness said:

Yesterday, in the midst of watching a seditious mob casually walk past an unprepared capitol hill police force, I came across a brilliant tweet:

They used the word sedition wrong on CNN yesterday (I saw a clip of Joke Yapper), no surprises there because they're dolts at the very best, and you just copied them.

For your edification:

se·di·tion
/səˈdiSH(ə)n/
noun
  1. conduct or speech inciting people to rebel against the authority of a state or monarch.

 

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10 hours ago, ReeferMadness said:

The predictable results have been a diminished sense of individual security as wages stagnated;

Nothing says "diminished sense of security" like:

-the three full years of racial violence, rioting, looting, killing and arson that happened under Obama,  

-the litany of terrorist attacks against the USA and the rest of the world while Obi-wrong was POTUS, 

-the growth of a nation-sized genocidal theocracy in the middle east,

-Russia's sudden rise to world-class douchebaggery, and

-the rise to prominence of rocket-man.

 

Also, wages went up by several times as much in just 4 years under Trump as they went up in 8 years under Obama. 

 

A good example of democracy faltering is when a criminal with dementia has the power to turn the Supreme Court into kangaroo court.

 

Nice try though Reefer. A... sawwwinganamisssss.

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23 minutes ago, Aristides said:

Trump's speech was definitely seditious.

1) Kudos for at least knowing what the word means, even if you just learned it from reading the definition there.

2) There were 500 speeches given by various Dems, their stooges and CNN taking heads during the last 4 years which were seditious too, far more if you include crap from the collusion fiasco.

They had their supporters out harassing, attacking and shooting at members of the gov't in case you've forgotten.

Their little turds even did things like put pictures of themselves on social media holding an effigy of the POTUS's severed head, they talked about assassinating the POTUS, talked about blowing up the whitehouse....

Those are all textbook examples of sedition which, if unpunished, have the net effect of legalizing it.

 

And TBH, all Trump did was organize a protest against the people who want to sweep widespread election corruption under the rug. There really were too many examples of 'voting irregularities which all favoured one side' even if it can't be proven to the satisfaction of a court that it was all done for the purpose of actively committing fraud.

If you can cite where he told people to attack anyone or seize control of government buildings, that's sedition, but organizing a protest is not sedition. 

Edited by WestCanMan
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6 minutes ago, Aristides said:

Trump went on for almost an hour and a quarter spewing lie after lie. There is plenty there that could be considered seditious or at the very least inciting a riot but I guess a court would have to decide that. I hope we get to find out.

1) The act of sedition involves a call to action, not just saying things that you believe in your heart to be untrue.

2) From what I've seen, Trump is just reiterating things that others have sworn to in affidavits and have testified to in court, and last I heard none of them were charged with perjury. 

3) After all the lies that Schiff, Clinton, Clapper, Brennan et al have said over the past three years, with the sole purpose of unseating a duly elected President, the sudden concern in the US over the act of sedition is a total joke Aristides.

Granted, a serious line was crossed in Washington, but Trump didn't even hint that anyone should go to that extent. 

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8 hours ago, WestCanMan said:

Granted, a serious line was crossed in Washington, but Trump didn't even hint that anyone should go to that extent. 

Well you and I will fundamentally disagree on that. 
Not only that but his idiot son did as well and that moron Giuliani called for “trial by combat”.

Edited by Aristides
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1 hour ago, Aristides said:

Well you and I will fundamentally disagree on that. 
Not only that but his idiot son did as well and that moron Giuliani called for “trial by combat”.

What about Gomhert talking about violence in the streets ?

How do people get into politics without realizing that words mean things...

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11 hours ago, WestCanMan said:

the three full years of racial violence, rioting, looting, killing and arson that happened under Obama....terrorism..

It wasn’t “3 full years” and there were riots under Trump also.  There were terrorist attacks under Bush.  You can’t even point to anything specific that Trump did to curb either. 

Your ridiculous cultist treatment of Trump as the rooster who deserves sole credit for the sun rising is as hilarious and pathetic as your treatment of Obama and Trudeau (and soon to be Biden) as the owls who are solely o blame for the sun setting.

11 hours ago, WestCanMan said:

the growth of a nation-sized genocidal theocracy in the middle east,

That was the inevitable result of Bush’s criminal invasion of Iraq and was predicted by everyone on the left back when Bush invaded in 2003 and promised it would be a peaceful liberation the troops would be home in a few months. The vile terrorist group Bush unleashed on the world evolved under the leadership of a terrorist that Bush released from US custody. Obama may mot have bern perfect cleaning up Bush’s mess with the benefit of hindsight but you when you Republicans set the whole damn house on fire and let the fire worsen for 6 years don’t get to criticize the firefighters who are sent to replace you.  Again you can’t point to anything specific Trump did to defeat ISIS it was already in decline under pressure from Syrian, Turkish, Kurdish and Itaqi forces with US, Russian and international support   
 

11 hours ago, WestCanMan said:

Russia's sudden rise to world-class douchebaggery, and

-the rise to prominence of rocket-man.

Russia has always been a world-class douchebag. Nobody has done more to encourage and enable Russian aggression towards the West than Trump, an open admirer of Putin, whose staff admits they met with Russian agents to negotiate lifting sanctions in exchange for dirt on Hillary. Not sure what the “rocket man” refers to. 
 

11 hours ago, WestCanMan said:

Also, wages went up by several times as much in just 4 years under Trump as they

False. During Obama’s last four years in office the average weekly earnings for production and nonsupervisory workers went up 4.9%. Over Obama’s entire two-term tenure, wages were up 4.2%.

Wages have increased 2.4% since Trump took office (as of 2019) , Thank to state minimum wage increases that Republicans openly opposed 

For all wage earners:

This growth reached 2.1% per annum in February 2019, prior to the pandemic.

This is lower than the real wage increases of up to 2.4% that President Obama oversaw in 2015

Trump touted low-wage worker pay gains but much of the credit goes to state minimum wage hikes

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/amp.usatoday.com/amp/4682939002

11 hours ago, WestCanMan said:

A good example of democracy faltering is when a criminal with dementia has the power to turn the Supreme Court into kangaroo court.

Agreed. Fortunately that demented criminal will be leaving office at noon on Jan 20, and possibly sooner. 

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11 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

What about Gomhert talking about violence in the streets ?

How do people get into politics without realizing that words mean things...

That too.

Everything Trump said was intended to overturn the result of an election that had been verified by officials, Democrat and Republican in every state after multiple recounts in several states, as well as scores of court decisions up to and including the SCOTUS. 

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10 hours ago, WestCanMan said:

2) From what I've seen, Trump is just reiterating things that others have sworn to in affidavits and have testified to in court, and last I heard none of them were charged with perjury. 

Signing an affidavit claiming you believe you saw a UFO won’t get you charged with perjury but that doesn’t mean it proves that aliens exist. 
 

10 hours ago, WestCanMan said:

3) After all the lies that Schiff, Clinton, Clapper, Brennan et al have said over the past three years, with the sole purpose of unseating a duly elected President, the sudden concern in the US over the act of sedition is a total joke Aristides.

Impeachment is an established legal means which the Republicans last ised whb Clintons lied about getting a blow job. It wasn’t sedition when it was used against Clinton and isn’t sedition when used against Trump’s obstruction of Justice. What Trump did was completely different because even after all his attempts though established authorities and mechanisms to dispute  the election failed, he tried to pressure officials to throw out the results and install him in office anyway.

 

10 hours ago, WestCanMan said:

Granted, a serious line was crossed in Washington, but Trump didn't even hint that anyone should go to that extent. 

If Trump hadn’t been such a complete fucking idiot he would have understood and expected that some of his followers would go that extent given all his dramatic and overheated  rhetoric to describe his false claims and then going on about “showing strength”, “never backing down”, “trial by combat” and then telling them to march on the capitol

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34 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

What about Gomhert talking about violence in the streets ?

How do people get into politics without realizing that words mean things...

What about Pelosi saying, "I don't know why there aren't uprisings all over the place"?

What about Kamala Harris's exchange with Colbert during the rioting and murders:

Quote

"I know there are protests still happening in major cities across the United States, I'm just not seeing the reporting on it that I had for the first few weeks," Colbert said.

"That's right," Harris replied. "But they're not gonna stop. They're not gonna stop, and this is a movement, I'm telling you."

"They're not gonna stop, and everyone beware, because they're not gonna stop," she added. "They're not gonna stop before Election Day in November, and they're not gonna stop after Election Day."

"Everyone should take note of that, on both levels, that they're not going to let up — and they should not. And we should not," she concluded.

"Words mean things" lol.

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30 minutes ago, Aristides said:

 Everything Trump said was intended to overturn the result of an election that had been verified by officials, Democrat and Republican in every state after multiple recounts in several states, as well as scores of court decisions up to and including the SCOTUS. 

A major part of politics is not getting what you want.  This is a lesson everybody has to learn, even Trump and his followers.  If you can't handle losing about 1/2 the time maybe politics isn't for you.

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20 minutes ago, BeaverFever said:

Signing an affidavit claiming you believe you saw a UFO won’t get you charged with perjury but that doesn’t mean it proves that aliens exist. 

That's not germane to this discussion. Fact is that you can't just say that Trump is a liar for repeating things that several people testified to under oath. Get it Beave?

Quote

Impeachment is an established legal means...

Sure it is. Lying to achieve that end is not an established legal means though. Libel and slander are not recognized means for a legal regime change.

When Brennan, Clapper etc were saying those things to muppets who watch CNN they were creating an environment in which idiots felt justified to participate in verbal and physical attacks on members of the GOP. Members of the government were harassed, assaulted and shot. 

 

56 minutes ago, BeaverFever said:

then telling them to march on the capitol

He said "walk down to the Capitol' you liar.

Quote

It wasn’t “3 full years” and there were riots under Trump also.  There were terrorist attacks under Bush.  You can’t even point to anything specific that Trump did to curb either. 

It was half of 2014, all of 2015 and all of 2016, but they didn't instantly stop when Trump took over. The atmosphere where idiots felt like it was the will of their anointed one that there should be rioting, looting arson, cop-killing and murder didn't go away overnight. 

The riots under Trump were nowhere near 3 years long fool. Floyd was killed on May 25th and to that point there hadn't been a single riot. The Bodycam footage was leaked in early August, effectively ending the Obama's beloved riots. Only the ultra-dolts in Portland were still acting up after that.

Chaz was cleared and the BLM cops stopped murdering black kids on July 1.

Quote

That was the inevitable result of Bush’s criminal invasion of Iraq and was predicted by everyone on the left back when Bush invaded in 2003 and promised it would be a peaceful liberation the troops would be home in a few months. The vile terrorist group Bush unleashed on the world evolved under the leadership of a terrorist that Bush released from US custody.

 I dunno if you made that up or if you're quoting someone who's equally stupid but there wasn't a genocidal theocracy controlling a nation-sized land mass when Bush left office, aside from maybe Pakistan. 

Quote

Russia has always been a world-class douchebag.

You're wrong again, as usual.

Geez, I wonder why that is.

FYI Russia was a nobody on the international scene for over a decade before Obama came along and muttered his famous quote to Romney to the effect that: "The 1990's called - they want their Russian foreign policy back" or whatever. He was convinced that the Russians were no longer a threat and he ignored them. Nunes and the House Intel Committee warned Obi-wrong that the Russians were working hard at interfering in the US elections and Obi-wrong droned on interminably about how it was impossible. 

Then during Obama's weak and stupid terms in office, Russia bought a couple hundred thousand dollars worth of FB ads and gave Trump a victory lol (I'm joking, but a lot of completely worthless idiots actually still believe that). They also took over Crimea and some territory along their border with Ukraine. In short, they took what they wanted while Obi-wrong wrung his hands and fretted.

Russia didn't manage to sweet FA while Trump was POTUS though, aside from helping to kill islamic state, and getting a bunch of their own soldiers wasted when they approached a US base. 

I'm sure this is all news to you but you don't need to Google it all, because in stark contrast with you, I only say things that are true.

Quote

False. During Obama’s last four years in office the average weekly earnings for production and nonsupervisory workers went up 4.9%. Over Obama’s entire two-term tenure, wages were up 4.2%.

Wages have increased 2.4% since Trump took office (as of 2019) , Thank to state minimum wage increases that Republicans openly opposed 

For all wage earners:

Blah, blah, blah (translates to "wrong, wrong, wrong", as usual).

They say a picture is worth a thousand words, but in this case only two are needed. "You're wrong" (unless the Bureau of Labor Statistics is wrong lol):

Always fun chatting with ya Beave. Have a really terrific day 8)

 

 

 

 

Screen Shot 2021-01-08 at 10.10.44 AM.png

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57 minutes ago, QuebecOverCanada said:

Is calling for riots, calling for harassment of Republicans, calling for mass unrest, sedition?

According to the dictionary it is, but leftists use CNN as their dictionary, so 'opinions' here will vary.

Edited by WestCanMan
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9 minutes ago, WestCanMan said:
Quote

 

 I dunno if you made that up or if you're quoting someone who's equally stupid but there wasn't a genocidal theocracy controlling a nation-sized land mass when Bush left office, aside from maybe Pakistan. 

Yeah you’re generally ignorant so I’m not surprised even though you’ve been informed of this already. Bush created Al Qaeda in Iraq and he released Al-Baghdadi from prison who took over, moved the group to Syria and then turned it into ISIS. At best a Obama could have kept the group contained in Syria although neither he nor his generals had the benefit of hindsight that we have.  

Edited by BeaverFever
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1 hour ago, QuebecOverCanada said:

Is calling for riots, calling for harassment of Republicans, calling for mass unrest, sedition?

That’s a total lie. Supporting peaceful protest and condemning violence isn’t the same as supporting violence   
 

Funny how the right-tards only understand that when their people are  the ones committing the riots

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15 minutes ago, BeaverFever said:

Funny how the right-tards only understand that when their people are  the ones committing the riots

People who hate politics will try to erase the lines to make their team right every time... the lines can move according to the situation ... to favour your team.

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5 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

People who hate politics will try to erase the lines to make their team right every time... the lines can move according to the situation ... to favour your team.

We see that right here, every single day. I guess we all hate politics then.

But not you... right?

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17 minutes ago, BeaverFever said:

Yeah you’re generally ignorant so I’m not surprised even though you’ve been informed of this already. Bush created Al Qaeda in Iraq and he released Al-Baghdadi from prison who took over, moved the group to Syria and then turned it into ISIS. At best a Obama could have kept the group contained in Syria although neither he nor his generals had the benefit of hindsight that we have.  

Whatever there was when Bush took over, it wasn't a large country Beave, and you know that but you are too much of a liar and Obama sycophant to admit it. Follow the numbers Beave... They go, "1, 2, 3, 4", from top to bottom.

FYI:

1) when Bush left office there was no country known as islamic state, there was an unstable Iraq which was being successfully propped by US troops (albeit at the cost of many casualties) and a stable Syria, 

 2) by Obama's own words, islamic state was "just a Jr Varsity terrorist squad" when he took office,

3) islamic state grew to be one of the 100 largest COUNTRIES on earth while Obama was POTUS,

4) by Obama's estimate it would take 5 years to get islamic state off the map.

 

In summary: islamic state was officially a Jr Varisty terrorist squad in Nov 2008, islamic state became one of the largest 100 countries in the world and they grabeed 100% of that land mass during the Obi-wrong Presidency, islamic state was on pace to remain a nation for 5 years under Obi-wrong's plan, but Trump had them whipped like dogs after 3 months and almost entirely wiped off the map within 6 months. IE, islamic state for all intents and purposes was really just a thing under Obama. 0 minutes before his Presidency and a few short months after his Presidency.

 

 

And further to another idiotic post that you had above, questioning what Trump did to stop terrorism in the US and abroad... - Trump filled Iraq and Syria with islamic state corpses and created a new world where no one puffs out their chest and says "I'm the leader of this terrorist group!" by killing all of their leaders, including Suleimani. 

When there isn't anyone bold enough to crow, there are far less people willing to 'follow'. History is rife with armies and mobs that vanished when their leaders fell. It's the norm. Bite the head off the snake. 

Don't worry Beave, you'll see soon enough what foolish & feckless leadership can do to prop up your enemies once Biden is at the helm. The contrast will be stark and very unfortunate for a lot of decent, innocent, freedom-loving people. You'll get your chance to repeat the leftist mantra: "It's too early to say whether or not islamic terrorism was to blame, this van/bomb attack is just a gun control issue right now" over and over again. 

 

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