Doug Ford and Covid 19

[Boges]

On 10/29/2021 at 9:26 PM, Accountability Now said:

? close to 70% of their deaths occurred in 2020.  That’s what this article was measuring excess deaths in 2020. 
 

When 2021 is over and they do this again, how do you think Sweden’s rank will be with  only 5000 COVID deaths versus 10000?

Just to be fair. 

That's the same rhetoric the likes of Shady use to imply that COVID is only dangerous to people over 60. 

A vast majority of the deaths happened early in the pandemic from people in LTC homes. 

Since them we've had waves were young people have been the majority of people infected and Hospitals still have been overwhelmed. See Ontario in the Spring and Alberta and Saskatchewan recently. 

[Accountability Now]

2 hours ago, Boges said:

Since them we've had waves were young people have been the majority of people infected and Hospitals still have been overwhelmed. See Ontario in the Spring and Alberta and Saskatchewan recently. 

The majority of young people have been been infected but are you saying the majority of hospitalizations have been young as well? 

[Boges]

9 minutes ago, Accountability Now said:

The majority of young people have been been infected but are you saying the majority of hospitalizations have been young as well? 

It's actually tough to find those stats. 

You can find age breakdowns of infected, but I've had trouble finding demographic breakdowns of those Hospitalized. 

We do know that the 3rd Wave in Ontario was driven largely by frontline workers in Urban areas. Old people were still staying home. 

https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/coronavirus/pandemic-s-third-wave-hits-people-in-their-20s-30s-with-more-illness-and-blame-1.5370188

Quote

 

The message was quickly shot down by medical experts including Dr. Sumon Chakrabarti in Mississauga, Ont., who noted many of the most severely ill appear to be marginalized and essential workers in their 20s, 30s, 40s and 50s who work in congregate-work settings where the novel coronavirus spreads easily.

"People who work in factories... food processing plants, transport companies, warehouses -- these people got hit in the first and second wave and they're getting hit even harder in the third wave," Chakrabarti said Wednesday.

"Think about a 28-year-old guy working in Purolator, or working in a food processing plant hearing that. 'You're saying that I'm blowing it for you?' When we go into lockdown, which doesn't affect any of these essential services, these are the people that we are relying on for food, for supply, for health care."

 

They tried to localize lockdowns only to the urban areas but it didn't work. By April the numbers were spreading across the province, so the long 2 month lockdown happened. 

Edited November 1, 2021 by Boges

[Accountability Now]

16 minutes ago, Boges said:

https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/coronavirus/pandemic-s-third-wave-hits-people-in-their-20s-30s-with-more-illness-and-blame-1.5370188

Again, I would caution you when they say "more" as they often don't quantify how much more it really is. 1%? 10% 50%?

Its like the example I showed you about US covid where the MSM down there made a huge story on Delta affecting under 18 kids more. They weren't wrong since for one brief period the rate hit the highest its ever been but it went from something like 4.1 cases per 100k to 4.2. Yes....an increase but nothing to be concerned about. 

[Boges]

1 minute ago, Accountability Now said:

Again, I would caution you when they say "more" as they often don't quantify how much more it really is. 1%? 10% 50%?

Its like the example I showed you about US covid where the MSM down there made a huge story on Delta affecting under 18 kids more. They weren't wrong since for one brief period the rate hit the highest its ever been but it went from something like 4.1 cases per 100k to 4.2. Yes....an increase but nothing to be concerned about. 

Well regardless. If you believe hospitalization figures, the hospitals were becoming overwhelmed.

And in the communities with younger populations that usually live in congregate settings. Where young people, in frontline work, often live with older people. 

The biggest error in handling COVID earlier in the year IMHO, was prioritizing older populations who could stay home instead of people who couldn't stay home, even if there was a lockdown. 

[Accountability Now]

17 minutes ago, Boges said:

Well regardless. If you believe hospitalization figures, the hospitals were becoming overwhelmed.

I find it ironic that one one day we are overwhelmed and at 150% of our capacity and then they magically re-assign some beds and we are at 85% capacity.  I think the media and our unions have done a good job of sensationalizing the word overwhelmed. 

28 minutes ago, Boges said:

The biggest error in handling COVID earlier in the year IMHO, was prioritizing older populations who could stay home instead of people who couldn't stay home, even if there was a lockdown. 

Agreed. 

[Boges]

1 minute ago, Accountability Now said:

I find it ironic that one one day we are overwhelmed and at 150% of our capacity and then they magically re-assign some beds and we are at 85% capacity.  I think the media and our unions have done a good job of sensationalizing the word overwhelmed. 

I don't think that happened in Ontario. 

You saw that in Alberta where they expanded capacity. The main way of doing that is cancelling surgeries and focusing more of the Healthcare system with handling COVID-19 instead of other healthcare concerns. 

Which is why there are secondary problems with a jurisdiction-wide outbreak. "Rationing of care" or "Triage Protocol" become buzzwords. 

[Accountability Now]

7 hours ago, Boges said:

I don't think that happened in Ontario. 

You saw that in Alberta where they expanded capacity. The main way of doing that is cancelling surgeries and focusing more of the Healthcare system with handling COVID-19 instead of other healthcare concerns. 

No they didn’t extend capacities, they just twisted the truth about what the capacities are. We approached somewhere around 200 and they said we were getting full. Then they created surge beds to bring us up to 325 or so. Even at that we got to 90% and it looked like we were going to max out if we didn’t do something. HOWEVER, the actual max icu rate according to AHS is 425 but they don’t want people to know that because it’s not as scary to say ICU is 2/3 full.  There was even talk last spring from Kenney’s office saying they could have 1000 beds but that was probably BS

Edited November 2, 2021 by Accountability Now

[Boges]

15 hours ago, Accountability Now said:

No they didn’t extend capacities, they just twisted the truth about what the capacities are. We approached somewhere around 200 and they said we were getting full. Then they created surge beds to bring us up to 325 or so. Even at that we got to 90% and it looked like we were going to max out if we didn’t do something. HOWEVER, the actual max icu rate according to AHS is 425 but they don’t want people to know that because it’s not as scary to say ICU is 2/3 full.  There was even talk last spring from Kenney’s office saying they could have 1000 beds but that was probably BS

"Surge Bed" aren't things you really want for ICU patients. 

Regardless, to expand capacity something has to be taken from somewhere else. 

And note: Saskatchewan had to send patients to Ontario, because their ICU capacity was full. 

[Accountability Now]

2 hours ago, Boges said:

"Surge Bed" aren't things you really want for ICU patients. 

See...you just got caught in the lie as well. Its not like these bed are cots rolled in for your buddy to sleep on. The surge beds are just the same as any other bed just reallocated from some other use.  If they have an ICU capacity of 425 then they have the beds in place for 425 but choose to use them for ICU when needed. 

2 hours ago, Boges said:

Regardless, to expand capacity something has to be taken from somewhere else. 

The limit is 425....where was the expanding when you are at 300? Or is it reallocating? Again, this is wording they use to make it look worse than it is.  The ICU continually operates at 80-90% whether its full or empty. When the ICU beds aren't being used they are allocated to other resources. When needed they are reallocated back.  

 

2 hours ago, Boges said:

And note: Saskatchewan had to send patients to Ontario, because their ICU capacity was full. 

That's the question I have been asking all along. Is this a Covid issue or a resource issue. I read somewhere that Ontario's max capacity for ICU is 2300 beds. Based on a population of 14.5 million that would mean there are about 16 beds per 100k. Alberta has a max capacity of 425 beds. Based on a population of 4.4 million, that would mean there are about 10 beds per 100k. According to an article I read, Saskatchewan's ICU numbers were around 60 and they were sending 25 or so to Ontario. IF this is true, then that means 60 is their max, then that means their ICU bed rate is just over 5 beds per 100k. To put this in perspective, most US states have 20-30 ICU beds per 100k. 

So Ontario has 60% more ICU beds than Alberta per capita and 220% more than Saskatchewan....why is that? Is it poor health care management by these provinces? Maybe? Or is it that the plan is always to use Ontario as a back up?  Honestly not sure. 

I can admit my numbers are crude but I don't think they are far off.  

[OftenWrong]

Ontario businesses are being shut down by the police for not enforcing "Covid rules". Meanwhile hospital workers in Ontario and Quebec can still go to work without being vaccinated.

Makes me wonder, why izzit? 

 

[Zeitgeist]

10 hours ago, OftenWrong said:

Ontario businesses are being shut down by the police for not enforcing "Covid rules". Meanwhile hospital workers in Ontario and Quebec can still go to work without being vaccinated.

Makes me wonder, why izzit? 

 

Governments don’t make decisions based on ethics but what they can get away with.  They realized they’d lose too many health workers with vaccine mandates, but they can get away with squeezing businesses.  

[Boges]

20 hours ago, OftenWrong said:

Ontario businesses are being shut down by the police for not enforcing "Covid rules". Meanwhile hospital workers in Ontario and Quebec can still go to work without being vaccinated.

Makes me wonder, why izzit? 

Weren't you hand-wringing about a vaccine mandate for healthcare workers? 

I guess some communities have healthcare workers where the vaccine up-take is much lower. 

The Province has given any given Hospital the option to mandate vaccines, but they pragmatically made the decision not to pass on a blanket mandate. 

Hospitals are places where PPE would be mandated for both staff and patients. A restaurant, a gym, a movie theatre is much different, much tougher. 

Though I've had varying level of Proof of Vaccine diligence when trying to do indoor dining, enter a gym or play organized sports etc. 

[Goddess]

8 hours ago, Boges said:

Though I've had varying level of Proof of Vaccine diligence when trying to do indoor dining, enter a gym or play organized sports etc. 

Are you one of the ones who "squeals" to the police when a business or service doesn't check for your passport?

[Zeitgeist]

17 Canadian children have died of Covid 19 since the start of the pandemic.  Now that the vulnerable age groups all have access to vaccines and virtually all of them are fully-vaxxed, we can't use the excuse that restrictions on the young (masking, distancing, etc.) are necessary to protect the vulnerable.  These are draconian government mandates that at this point make life unnecessarily miserable for children.  Now we'll get the added prophylactic of child vaccines.  Between boosters and self-imposed precautionary measures, vulnerable adults can protect themselves quite well.  What the hell are we doing to kids?  With our low death and hospitalization rates, the the hell are we doing to adults?

[OftenWrong]

4 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

17 Canadian children have died of Covid 19 since the start of the pandemic.  Now that the vulnerable age groups all have access to vaccines and virtually all of them are fully-vaxxed, we can't use the excuse that restrictions on the young (masking, distancing, etc.) are necessary to protect the vulnerable.  These are draconian government mandates that at this point make life unnecessarily miserable for children.  Now we'll get the added prophylactic of child vaccines.  Between boosters and self-imposed precautionary measures, vulnerable adults can protect themselves quite well.  What the hell are we doing to kids?  With our low death and hospitalization rates, the the hell are we doing to adults?

It's psycho-logico, my friend. Beat the kids down mentally. They're teaching them a new course on social distancing in schools: ESTRANGEMENT 101.

[Zeitgeist]

55 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

It's psycho-logico, my friend. Beat the kids down mentally. They're teaching them a new course on social distancing in schools: ESTRANGEMENT 101.

It’s horrifying how easily and permanently these restrictions on freedoms were imposed.   People really don’t understand how hard it is to remove them now.  I’d really hoped that pandemic restrictions were temporary.  They are not and people are accepting the feeble excuses for maintaining them.  Well the Dark Ages lasted around 1000 years.  I can’t help but think we’re right back in them.  

[Boges]

On 11/15/2021 at 5:49 PM, Goddess said:

Are you one of the ones who "squeals" to the police when a business or service doesn't check for your passport?

Nope. I understand the bind they're in. 

I was in Toronto on the weekend and noticed a good number of restaurants still have patio set ups with heaters. I imagine they still have a method of trying to serve unvaxxed people that want to dine. 

[dialamah]

On 11/15/2021 at 2:49 PM, Goddess said:

Are you one of the ones who "squeals" to the police when a business or service doesn't check for your passport?

Nope.  Are you one of those people that assume those who disagree with you would be willing to beat animals to death?

Edited November 17, 2021 by dialamah

[Goddess]

4 hours ago, dialamah said:

Nope.  Are you one of those people that assume those who disagree with you would be willing to beat animals to death?

Pleasee.

You know you'd do it.

Willingly and gleefully.

If they told you it had to be done to fight covid infections, you'd obey.

Of course you would.

[Boges]

19 hours ago, Goddess said:

Pleasee.

You know you'd do it.

Willingly and gleefully.

If they told you it had to be done to fight covid infections, you'd obey.

Of course you would.

That's the immature rhetoric one has come to expect from Anti-Vaxxers. 

[dialamah]

On 11/15/2021 at 10:53 PM, Zeitgeist said:

It’s horrifying how easily and permanently these restrictions on freedoms were imposed.   People really don’t understand how hard it is to remove them now.  I’d really hoped that pandemic restrictions were temporary.  

Permanently??  Where are you?  The only restriction that still remains where I live is wearing a mask, and no dancing if I happen to go out to a club.  Next week, our office will be back at capacity.  A year ago, I couldn't go to a restaurant, a gym, a movie, events, have family/friends over and my office was deserted.  My friend couldn't visit her mother in her care home and now she can.  If you are still living under those kinds of restrictions, come to BC; it'll restore your confidence in freedom.

On 11/15/2021 at 10:53 PM, Zeitgeist said:

 Well the Dark Ages lasted around 1000 years.  I can’t help but think we’re right back in them.  

I haven't seen any book bonfires; have you?  Although today, it'd likely be the destruction of electronic devices, which I also haven't seen.  Am using one of those devices right now as a matter of fact - as I assume you are.  

 

[Goddess]

2 hours ago, Boges said:

That's the immature rhetoric one has come to expect from Anti-Vaxxers. 

For sure, you would, too, Boges.

All it would take for you to comply with killing pets is:

• An article from Global quoting some "scientist" saying that infections are coming from pets.
• An order from the government to kill pets in light of said "scientist" views

You wouldn't even question it.

AND......if the "scientist" said infections were only coming from pets owned by unvaxxed people....absolutely, you would be All. Over. That.

[Boges]

1 minute ago, Goddess said:

For sure, you would, too, Boges.

All it would take for you to comply with killing pets is:

• An article from Global quoting some "scientist" saying that infections are coming from pets.
• An order from the government to kill pets in light of said "scientist" views

You wouldn't even question it.

AND......if the "scientist" said infections were only coming from pets owned by unvaxxed people....absolutely, you would be All. Over. That.

This provides nothing new to the debate. 

It's satisfying that this is the rhetoric you're left with. 

[Goddess]

13 minutes ago, Boges said:

This provides nothing new to the debate. 

This is partially true.

My only point, because of the article on totalitarianism and the totalitarian pathway countries are going down right now, is that people like you who obey without questioning anything, are dangerous during such times as this.

Fortunately, the article shows you are in the minority - only 30% blindly obey.

30% are natural questioners.

40% are not sure, they want to question, they have doubts about the logicalness of things, they are open to and want to hear both sides of issues, but they are also easily cowed when governments restrict access to information and demonize and punish any who question or don't obey.  They also are the ones who will eventually stand up and say "Enough!"  But hopefully, not too late.