Know our enemy?

[Lee Teague]

Respectfully, I think Canada must gradually, over time, disengage from a number of state actors: China, Russia, the United Kingdom & the United States.

Why? Because each of them have descended into political chaos - pre-COVID 19. Canada needs dependable and stable diplomatic and economic partners, not despots that refuse to play a rules-based system. I propose Canada elect a Canada First government and begin the process of dis-engagement from these soon-to-be somewhat failed states and forge ties with what will remain of the European Union after COVID 19 has run its course.

Seriously, let's give Xi, Putin, Johnson and Trump what they want. They can stay over where they are and we can do our thing in a new arrangement that involves the creation of a trans-Atlantic society that values a rules-based system (applied equally) values objectivity and rationality and above all, science. Let's get ahead of the game in terms of the economic, political & social dislocation/disruption that's soon to emerge and essentially lay waste to the old order - and prepare for the post-carbon world that is about to dawn.

We will not be vulnerable: we will possess nuclear weapons and large, land-based armies along with navies and a trans-Atlantic air force. Don't be afraid. With what we've come to in the last two weeks or so (and what is to come ... ) we have nothing to lose. It is time to call the old order's bluff and put an end to the dysfunction of the zeitgeist.

[Argus]

12 hours ago, Lee Teague said:

Respectfully, I think Canada must gradually, over time, disengage from a number of state actors: China, Russia, the United Kingdom & the United States.

Disengage? You don't 'disengage' from the people who run the world. Certainly we should have a lot less to do with China, and probably Russia, but I see no reason to distance ourselves from the US and UK, which are both democratic countries.

12 hours ago, Lee Teague said:

Why? Because each of them have descended into political chaos - pre-COVID 19.

There's nothing chaotic about the politics of Russia or China. They are authoritarian governments with strongmen in very firm control, as they have been for years. The UK has a majority government which seems to know what it's doing. The US has a blithering moron as corrupt as they come, but hopefully that will pass soon. Canada, meanwhile, can't exactly pop its buttons with pride at its weak, minority government run by a shallow, callow drama school teacher.

12 hours ago, Lee Teague said:

Canada needs dependable and stable diplomatic and economic partners, not despots that refuse to play a rules-based system. I propose Canada elect a Canada First government and begin the process of dis-engagement from these soon-to-be somewhat failed states and forge ties with what will remain of the European Union after COVID 19 has run its course.

Canada needs trade with the world, and won't get it by virtue signalling and insulting our three main trading partners.

12 hours ago, Lee Teague said:

Let's get ahead of the game in terms of the economic, political & social dislocation/disruption that's soon to emerge and essentially lay waste to the old order - and prepare for the post-carbon world that is about to dawn.

If by 'about to dawn' you mean' coming in thirty or forty years.

12 hours ago, Lee Teague said:

We will not be vulnerable: we will possess nuclear weapons and large, land-based armies along with navies and a trans-Atlantic air force.

How? By magic?

[Moonlight Graham]

I remembers when conservatives wanted more open borders and more economic free trade.  Now they want the opposite.

I remembers when progressives wanted less open borders and less economic free trade.  Now they want the opposite.

I remembers.

[eyeball]

17 minutes ago, Moonlight Graham said:

I remembers when conservatives wanted more open borders and more economic free trade.  Now they want the opposite.

I remembers when progressives wanted less open borders and less economic free trade.  Now they want the opposite.

I remembers.

That's not how I remember it.  Progressives wanted more fair trade that treated people in countries we traded with like human beings and conservatives dismissed that as virtue signalling.

Conservatives will spread their legs as happily as bend someone over.

Edited March 31, 2020 by eyeball

[Moonlight Graham]

26 minutes ago, eyeball said:

That's not how I remember it.  Progressives wanted more fair trade that treated people in countries we traded with like human beings and conservatives dismissed that as virtue signalling.

Conservatives will spread their legs as happily as bend someone over.

Progressives were anti-neoliberalism.

[eyeball]

3 minutes ago, Moonlight Graham said:

Progressives were anti-neoliberalism.

50 years ago perhaps but things have changed, we've clearly had to adapt to reality while also remaining focused on making it better.  Conservatives these days imagine Democrats wear pyjama's and pack AK47's.

[cougar]

16 hours ago, Lee Teague said:

I propose Canada elect a Canada First government

All sounds good in theory till the time you have to define what Canada is, who is Canadian, what our mutual goal is and so on.

I have a very basic problem.  I want to buy myself a good pair of winter waterproof hunting (muck) boots made in Canada for $50-$100 but guess what?  They want to sell me a pair made in China for $200.   Can you solve my problem?

[Moonlight Graham]

2 hours ago, eyeball said:

50 years ago perhaps but things have changed, we've clearly had to adapt to reality while also remaining focused on making it better.  Conservatives these days imagine Democrats wear pyjama's and pack AK47's.

Neoliberalism only became popular among governments since the 1980's and 90's.  Reagan, Thatcher, Milton Friedman, free-trade deals, the "Washington Consensus" and such.

[eyeball]

1 hour ago, Moonlight Graham said:

Neoliberalism only became popular among governments since the 1980's and 90's.  Reagan, Thatcher, Milton Friedman, free-trade deals, the "Washington Consensus" and such.

Ok 40 years then. My points stand.

[Moonlight Graham]

1 hour ago, eyeball said:

Ok 40 years then. My points stand.

No progressives were like this up until like 5 years ago.  Now it's right-wing populism and globalist social justice.

[eyeball]

7 minutes ago, Moonlight Graham said:

No progressives were like this up until like 5 years ago.  Now it's right-wing populism and globalist social justice.

Lol, know your enemy much? 

The first attempts to commercialize fair trade goods in Northern markets were initiated in the 1940s and 1950s by religious groups and various politically oriented non-governmental organizations (NGOs)....

....The current fair trade movement was shaped in Europe in the 1960s....

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_trade

[Moonlight Graham]

1 hour ago, eyeball said:

Lol, know your enemy much?

I know what fair trade is.

Europe has not been arguing about fair trade, it's been arguing about the EU.  The left used to be against it because they thought it was neoliberalism and the right was for it because of free flow of money and trade.  Now the right is nativist and the left is pro-integration and pro-EU.  It's weird.

In the US/Canada/Mexico, political economy arguments haven't been centered much around fair trade, it's been arguing about the effects of NAFTA, the TPP, the WTO etc.

[eyeball]

42 minutes ago, Moonlight Graham said:

I know what fair trade is.

Point still being that conservatives regard it as virtue signalling.

Quote

Europe has not been arguing about fair trade, it's been arguing about the EU.

Europe is not the "progressives" in the lazy generalized way you stated.

Quote

The left used to be against it because they thought it was neoliberalism and the right was for it because of free flow of money and trade.  Now the right is nativist and the left is pro-integration and pro-EU.  It's weird.

There's nothing weird about it, progressives simply adapted because they didn't have any choice - they don't live in the past or pine away for it the way conservatives do.  Like undoing entropy it's too late to go back. The only way to make the free flow of money and trade work is to regulate and govern it - utterly anathema to conservatives and so they call it communism.

Quote

In the US/Canada/Mexico, political economy arguments haven't been centered much around fair trade, it's been arguing about the effects of NAFTA, the TPP, the WTO etc.

Yeah because of freaked out conservatives finally woking up to the fact the progressives were onto something decades ago...subconsciously though because the inability to admit progressives are ever right about anything is just to hard to overcome.

[bush_cheney2004]

12 minutes ago, eyeball said:

Europe is not the "progressives" in the lazy generalized way you stated.

 

But Venezuela and Hugo Chavez were...for a short time before it went all so wrong....Progressive Hell:

 

Progressive Perspective: What happened to Venezuela?

[eyeball]

2 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

Progressive Perspective: What happened to Venezuela?

Your own link tells you.

Quote

Over time, more and more of the economy ended up being run by incompetent and corrupt government bureaucrats whose chief concern was to line their own pockets.

 Why do you think I suggest we outlaw in-camera lobbying again?

Yes that's right, its to make it even easier to get away with this. 

[bush_cheney2004]

1 minute ago, eyeball said:

Your own link tells you.

 

Progressives believe they can run an economy on other people's money...until that runs out.   Then the true authoritarian nature comes out in them.

 

Quote

Why do you think I suggest we outlaw in-camera lobbying again?

Yes that's right, its to make it even easier to get away with this. 

 

Wouldn't change anything....we already have plenty of lobbying video to see.

[Yzermandius19]

Eyeball's wishful thinking that outlawing in-camera lobbying is some kind of sure fire cure for government corruption is laughable, government corruption existed long before in-camera lobbying existed, and if it were banned, it would exist for long after as well.

Edited April 1, 2020 by Yzermandius19

[betsy]

14 hours ago, Moonlight Graham said:

I remembers when conservatives wanted more open borders and more economic free trade.  Now they want the opposite.

I remembers when progressives wanted less open borders and less economic free trade.  Now they want the opposite.

I remembers.

That's news to me. What "open" borders did conservatives want? 

As long as I can remember, they don't want an open border that makes migrants come in so easily.  Conservatives want a PRACTICAL SCREENING process.

 

As for free trade - who would've thought we'd be losing businesses (and jobs)  to other countries?  We've seen the downside of free trade - I suppose we just have to make sure we've got sensible, expert negotiators that wouldn't sell out Canada's interest when negotiating!  SOMEONE LIKE TRUMP!

Nothing wrong with free trade as long as it's fair!

 

 

Edited April 1, 2020 by betsy

[betsy]

4 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Progressives believe they can run an economy on other people's money...until that runs out.   Then the true authoritarian nature comes out in them.

 

Then.....they tax you to your eyeballs!

No pun intended.

 

Canada doesn't have much to begin with (what we've got has already been spent - all these stimulus will have to come from somewhere).

I suppose that's why Trudeau wanted the power to tax without any oversight from Parliament!

Edited April 1, 2020 by betsy

[Iceni warrior]

9 hours ago, Moonlight Graham said:

I know what fair trade is.

Europe has not been arguing about fair trade, it's been arguing about the EU.  The left used to be against it because they thought it was neoliberalism and the right was for it because of free flow of money and trade.  Now the right is nativist and the left is pro-integration and pro-EU.  It's weird.

 

It's not accurate to portray opinions on the EU as left/right.

Certainly in the UK the dividing line was as much regional as party political.

Don't forget that all the major parties campaigned against Brexit in the run up to the referendum.

Class also played a major part with the working class left more likely to be pro-Brexit than the middle class right.

Corbyn himself had fought the EU for 40 years and went very quiet during the build up to the vote.

Cameron was very much in the Remain camp as were the majority of his MPs.

 

 

[Rue]

On 3/31/2020 at 12:46 AM, Lee Teague said:

Respectfully, I think Canada must gradually, over time, disengage from a number of state actors: China, Russia, the United Kingdom & the United States.

Why? Because each of them have descended into political chaos - pre-COVID 19. Canada needs dependable and stable diplomatic and economic partners, not despots that refuse to play a rules-based system. I propose Canada elect a Canada First government and begin the process of dis-engagement from these soon-to-be somewhat failed states and forge ties with what will remain of the European Union after COVID 19 has run its course.

Seriously, let's give Xi, Putin, Johnson and Trump what they want. They can stay over where they are and we can do our thing in a new arrangement that involves the creation of a trans-Atlantic society that values a rules-based system (applied equally) values objectivity and rationality and above all, science. Let's get ahead of the game in terms of the economic, political & social dislocation/disruption that's soon to emerge and essentially lay waste to the old order - and prepare for the post-carbon world that is about to dawn.

We will not be vulnerable: we will possess nuclear weapons and large, land-based armies along with navies and a trans-Atlantic air force. Don't be afraid. With what we've come to in the last two weeks or so (and what is to come ... ) we have nothing to lose. It is time to call the old order's bluff and put an end to the dysfunction of the zeitgeist.

Your positions would have us believe we need to hide and detach from things we find threatening. Gosh who gave you that idea.. sounds like .you have virus isolation syndrome...vis. 

Edited April 1, 2020 by Rue

[Rue]

18 hours ago, eyeball said:

That's not how I remember it.  Progressives wanted more fair trade that treated people in countries we traded with like human beings and conservatives dismissed that as virtue signalling.

Conservatives will spread their legs as happily as bend someone over.

Yah and liberals do not like getting spanked and pissed on. Spare me the feigned righteousness.  

[Argus]

17 hours ago, cougar said:

All sounds good in theory till the time you have to define what Canada is, who is Canadian, what our mutual goal is and so on.

I have no difficulty with any of this. But then I'm semi-old. I grew up in a pre-Liberal Canada, before Trudeau senior opened the floodgates to immigrants and then set about deliberately destroying our traditions and institutions because they were too closely related to Britain and he wanted to assuage Quebec. The 'multiculturalism' bullshit helped with that because it was only ever applied in English Canada, never in Quebec. We were told that we couldn't do this or say that and that this and that had to be changed so as to not offend newcomers. And the more newcomers we had which had no part of our traditions and values the more this argument was used. Now we have Trudeau the shallow proclaiming that Canada is a 'post-nation state', ie, not even a nation, and has no core identity, and saying it PROUDLY, as if this is a good thing! Mind you, he'd cut his own tongue out before saying anything like that about Quebec.

 

[Argus]

11 hours ago, Moonlight Graham said:

I know what fair trade is.

Europe has not been arguing about fair trade, it's been arguing about the EU.  The left used to be against it because they thought it was neoliberalism and the right was for it because of free flow of money and trade.  Now the right is nativist and the left is pro-integration and pro-EU.  It's weird.

The "right" has always been a defender of traditions, of "God, Queen and Country", so it's perfectly natural that as the number of foreigners allowed into countries by the Left grows greater and greater, and they see problems with integration which will mean their country's cultures, traditions and values are watered down or washed away, that they react in a hostile manner. The Left, meanwhile, tends to be in big urban centres, tends to be more globalist, and tends to have a lot of happy globalists among their leadership who couldn't care less what the culture or values are of the people around them. Add in that much of the Left has a knee-jerk hatred for western liberalism, western cultures and values, and capitalism, and the Left are the last people you will see defending a country's traditions and values, or even caring about them.

[Shady]

19 hours ago, eyeball said:

That's not how I remember it.  Progressives wanted more fair trade that treated people in countries we traded with like human beings and conservatives dismissed that as virtue signalling.

Conservatives will spread their legs as happily as bend someone over.

Progressives today are actually regressive.  They're for open borders and massive legal and illegal immigration, depressing wages of the middle class, causing huge increases in rent and housing costs.  They've completely abandoned their principles.  Corporations love it though.  An unlimited supply of cheap labour.