Did Trudeau Fail His Country On Covid-19

[Army Guy]

From cbc , just when did Justin government know about the virus.

 

 

 

[WestCanMan]

1 hour ago, eyeball said:

Correct me if I'm wrong but haven't you also said more people died because of Trudeau's not banning flights vs the number of people Trump saved by banning flights?

Shouldn't these be quantifiable values that can be derived thru a collection and analysis of data from multiple sources by people who how to do so?

These things are almost impossible to quantify. Trump says that millions of lives were saved by the Chinese travel ban, he could be right, and it could be almost zero.

If there were already 100 people in NYC riding the subway every day with covid on Jan 31st that would have been enough to saturate the whole system within a couple weeks regardless of what happened with flights from China. How will we ever know? Most people don't get tested, and if they do, how do we know when they got it (relative to the time when social distancing guidelines became common) or how long they were contagious for? If there were 2 or 3 people who rode the subway once or twice a week on Jan 31st and the travel ban prevented 200 people with covid from getting on that subway then he certainly did save a lot of people there, but again, how will we know? 

 

What if 3 slobs got it? What if 3 OCD people somehow got it? There's a huge difference in how many people those groups would infect, based on how often they wash their hands and flick boogers. 6 people is an incredibly small sample size, but 6 people on the subway in NYC with a disease as infectious as covid could create a massive sample size. What if one person with allergies got it, and sneezed a few times on the subway? Watch this for nightmares: 

I think that NYC was screwed no matter what, but if Trump did save lives they were probably in middle and small-town America, where it would take longer to arrive and where they would need far more infected people to spread the virus than in NYC. Can we get an accurate guesstimate of how quickly Chinese travellers would get covid to Branson Missouri or Missoula Montana? Flin Flon MB?

Do we even know how long it takes people who get infected to become contagious? Is it the same length of time for all types of people with higher or lower metabolism, stronger immune systems, etc? Do some people stay contagious far longer than others?

And if there is data to come out, what are the chances that it is unbiased? Will it come from CBC or CNN's trusted sources? I can already tell you what it will say. Will it come from Fox News's trusted sources? I can already tell you what it will say. If a stat comes out of Berkeley, the Alma Mater of Dr. Ford, it's not worth a pinch of infectious batshit.

Hillary had a 92% chance of winning the 2016 election by the latest poll results, right before the election. Shouldn't that be something that statisticians can get right in this day and age? 

No one can agree on anything in 2020 even if they see the video themselves,  and 92.6378965326% of stats are bullshit. 

I see stats as a chance for more division. Russia and China are already working on conflicting stats to release as we speak. 

Edited April 10, 2020 by WestCanMan

[WestCanMan]

22 minutes ago, Army Guy said:

From cbc , just when did Justin government know about the virus.

They said that our medical intelligence team started writing analysis and reports in early January. So basically, after it was already on the news lol.

Good to know that I can watch CBC, CNN and Fox News to keep up to date on our military intelligence.

[eyeball]

1 hour ago, WestCanMan said:

These things are almost impossible to quantify.

How will we ever know? 

You can be sure there'll be lots of think tanks and commissions and inquiries all around the planet analyzing everything they can once they have time and data to work with.  I'd be very surprised if there isn't a lot of quantification of the questions surrounding flight/travel bans, timing, execution and whole array of related issues.  I'm quite certain many will come up with conclusions that prompt you to ask  "Yeah well, how do they know?"

The politicization of events in the absence of answers that can't be answered now will be nothing compared to the politicization of answers that can and will be answered in the future.  I mean good grief never mind answers...we can probably come up with a couple of dozen questions that will be so political they won't be touched with a...6 foot pole.      

Edited April 10, 2020 by eyeball

[eyeball]

1 hour ago, WestCanMan said:

They said that our medical intelligence team started writing analysis and reports in early January. So basically, after it was already on the news lol.

Based on intelligence that was collected in late November apparently.  So basically it was news or shoulda and coulda have been news to people who, when they finally did find out, decided to play their cards close to their chests and gamble with our lives just a little bit longer.  Notice that's the one unifying characteristic that Xi Jinping, Donald Trump, Justin Trudeau and a couple of hundred other leaders around the world all seem to have in common?

A couple hundred people's interests vs the interests of billions....now there's something that defies calculus.

LOL.

Edited April 10, 2020 by eyeball
edited to add the LOL

[WestCanMan]

16 minutes ago, eyeball said:

You can be sure there'll be lots of think tanks and commissions and inquiries all around the planet analyzing everything they can once they have time and data to work with.  I'd be very surprised if there isn't a lot of quantification of the questions surrounding flight/travel bans, timing, execution and whole array of related issues.  I'm quite certain many will come up with conclusions that prompt you to ask  "Yeah well, how do they know?"

The politicization of events in the absence of answers that can't be answered now will be nothing compared to the politicization of answers that can and will be answered in the future.  I mean good grief never mind answers...we can probably come up with a couple of dozen questions that will be so political they won't be touched with a...6 foot pole.      

I think the biggest thing to come from all of this will be changes to the subway systems and other mass transit and aviation systems worldwide. 

I think that masks are going to become far more popular than ever, there may be mandatory hand-sanitizing at entrance points to transit stations and airports, more focus on air filtration or exhaust systems within subway trains and planes, maybe UV lighting (which kills germs) instead of normal lighting, etc.

Airports already employ TIC cameras that monitor people's body temperature to detect people with fevers, I wouldn't be surprised to see that kind of thing creep into some subway systems worldwide as well. Right now there's nothing stopping someone with a fever from getting on the subway, I think that may be a thing of the past.

Up until now the world was very slob-friendly, I think the new normal will be more OCD-friendly. I may not be able to adapt.

[WestCanMan]

24 minutes ago, eyeball said:

Based on intelligence that was collected in late November apparently.  So basically it was news or shoulda and coulda have been news to people who, when they finally did find out, decided to play their cards close to their chests and gamble with our lives just a little bit longer.  Notice that's the one unifying characteristic that Xi Jinping, Donald Trump, Justin Trudeau and a couple of hundred other leaders around the world all seem to have in common?

A couple hundred people's interests vs the interests of billions....now there's something that defies calculus.

LOL.

We'll never know if their calculation included a desire to acquire herd immunity to H1N1 via this relatively "safe" strain, which posed little threat to people between the womb and the post-retirement age. 

Even older people like Trump, Xi, Putin, Johnson etc have nothing to worry about, because if they get sick with Covid they will be healed, no expense will be spared. For regular 70+ types the % chance is real. 

I have to admit that I'm very impressed by the willingness of countries to harm their economies to save elders.

[eyeball]

2 minutes ago, WestCanMan said:

I have to admit that I'm very impressed by the willingness of countries to harm their economies to save elders.

So Trudeau is doing something right after all?  I would have thought you'd be more impressed with countries that are willing to sacrifice their elders to save their economies.

 

[WestCanMan]

1 minute ago, eyeball said:

So Trudeau is doing something right after all?  I would have thought you'd be more impressed with countries that are willing to sacrifice their elders to save their economies.

 

Everyone is doing something properly now, the only difference is who was smart enough to start doing the right things early on in the game. 

The next time anyone says "Pandemic may be starting in _______", int'l flights from there will be banned by 75% of countries right away. 

[OftenWrong]

Big Banks: Sure, we will defer your mortgage payments for as long as this takes.
Mr. Trudeau: That's right. We are here to help you.
Big Banks: Of course you understand you will still have to pay the interest for each month, once this is all over. That is only fair.
Mr. Trudeau: That's right. And you won't have to pay it all at once. We will see to that.
Big Banks: There will be a small interest charge added to cover the deferred period, but you won't have to pay it back all at once either.
Mr. Trudeau:   <>

Is Mr. Trudeau failing his country on Covid-19?

[Argus]

18 hours ago, eyeball said:

Correct me if I'm wrong but haven't you also said more people died because of Trudeau's not banning flights vs the number of people Trump saved by banning flights?

I don't believe so. What I said was that Trump banning flights helped, but the good it did was way offset by the complete shambles of their screening and testing and tracing.

Trudeau not banning flights hurt, but was offset by the provinces screening and testing and tracing.

I can't for the life of me think of anything the federal government has really done to fight the virus up until they apparently woke up in mid March and started ordering supplies and closed the border. Even now their screening at the borders is painfully inadequate and almost something done for show.

18 hours ago, eyeball said:

Shouldn't these be quantifiable values that can be derived thru a collection and analysis of data from multiple sources by people who how to do so?

I don't know how you could quantify it, but I think that when this is done we need an investigation into what actions the federal government did and failed to do which have contributed to either helping or hurting us in this crisis. I think at the top of the list of hurting us is not closing the borders, not screening returning Canadians, and not having an even moderately adequate stockpile of medical gear.

18 hours ago, eyeball said:

Look at the questions posed with the OP of this thread. They are questions that seem to cry out for data and the only data we have are rates of infections and deaths. So far these seem to confirm the concern of experts who said travel bans would make things worse.

And that data is not currently available except through basic observation of actions and results.

Social distancing and limiting international travel don't work. We would have the same # of cases right now even if we had stopped flights from China from coming in

Common sense says otherwise. Compare us to Australia. They have 54 deaths and their infection rate has been going down for two weeks. They closed the border early.

Eliminating travel from the epicentre of the virus outbreak was an obvious, key-component of the strategy to limit the spread of the virus. Trudeau failed Canadians.

Back in January, China sealed off Hubei province and banned travel from there into the rest of the country. They did not, however, ban travel from there to the rest of the world.

And by the way... how wonderfully nice and caring of them. Thanks again, China.

Now shouldn't someone in our government have reacted to that? China was saying this province was so dangerous, so filled with sickness, they had to seal it off. Yet we had no issues with allowing thousands of people to come here from Hubei, waving them through without any screening. Yes, Trudeau failed us. Tam failed us. Hadju failed us. The department of health failed us. The Public Health Agency, created after SARS for this specific eventuality, completely failed us.

[Argus]

The CBC has been critiquing the Liberals the last few days, and hasn't been very kindly.

Canada missed opportunities early on to tackle the COVID-19 pandemic and put itself in a better position to flatten the curve of infections sooner, say experts looking at the country's response to the pandemic.

In January, Canada's chief public health officer, Dr. Theresa Tam, said there would be cases of COVID-19, but "it's going to be rare."

All through January and well into February, Health Minister Patty Hajdu and other federal ministers reassured Canadians that the risk of getting the coronavirus in Canada was low, even after the first few cases popped up in the country.

Considering how fast the virus was spreading throughout China and into Europe, that surprised many in the medical and scientific community who were watching.

 

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/covid-19-canada-federal-response-1.5529263

[WestCanMan]

42 minutes ago, Argus said:

The CBC has been critiquing the Liberals the last few days, and hasn't been very kindly.

Canada missed opportunities early on to tackle the COVID-19 pandemic and put itself in a better position to flatten the curve of infections sooner, say experts looking at the country's response to the pandemic.

In January, Canada's chief public health officer, Dr. Theresa Tam, said there would be cases of COVID-19, but "it's going to be rare."

All through January and well into February, Health Minister Patty Hajdu and other federal ministers reassured Canadians that the risk of getting the coronavirus in Canada was low, even after the first few cases popped up in the country.

Considering how fast the virus was spreading throughout China and into Europe, that surprised many in the medical and scientific community who were watching.

 

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/covid-19-canada-federal-response-1.5529263

The ministry of propaganda doesn't even mention Trudeau until 3/4 of the way through the article. I think I could do a better job of critiquing the "Libs".

They also didn't mention that our Health Minister doesn't have any more medical training than my Rat Terrier. 

Quote

From the line below the title: Widespread testing, stricter isolation and border controls among measures seen as most effective

What are these border controls, and why didn't we think of that sooner?

[eyeball]

3 hours ago, Argus said:

I don't believe so. What I said was that Trump banning flights helped, but the good it did was way offset by the complete shambles of their screening and testing and tracing.

I'm willing to bet experts knew full well these 'shambles' would compound the false sense of security bans give rise to. But how do they tell their particular boss his common sense actually doesn't make sense?

Quote

Trudeau not banning flights hurt, but was offset by the provinces screening and testing and tracing.

Why didn't Trudeau not ban them though, was it because his experts told him it wasn't a good idea or was it because he thought he was smart enough to be a doctor?  In any case yes, I'm quite grateful I live in a province whose actions seem to have made the difference.

Quote

I can't for the life of me think of anything the federal government has really done to fight the virus up until they apparently woke up in mid March and started ordering supplies and closed the border. Even now their screening at the borders is painfully inadequate and almost something done for show.

Oh yeah there's lots of weak shoddy work being done alright - part and parcel of the same black-hole of unpreparedness that's dragged much of the world into its event horizon.

Quote

 

I don't know how you could quantify it, but I think that when this is done we need an investigation into what actions the federal government did and failed to do which have contributed to either helping or hurting us in this crisis. I think at the top of the list of hurting us is not closing the borders, not screening returning Canadians, and not having an even moderately adequate stockpile of medical gear.

And that data is not currently available except through basic observation of actions and results.

 

I think the actions of governments that put their politics and interests first is at the top of that list. I think Canada has overall done a better job of dealing with that. Not as good as some but a lot less worse than others. 

Quote

Common sense says otherwise. Compare us to Australia. They have 54 deaths and their infection rate has been going down for two weeks. They closed the border early.

Common suggests this would be easier on an island and as I understand it they really did CLOSE their border.  Sealed out the virus like welding shut the doors to an infected building in Wuhan. Not the Swiss cheese approach Trump used.  Perhaps Australia is a case where a government's self-interest actually benefited - after the scorching it got in the wake of Australia's wildfires due to charges of unpreparedness and shoddy response it wasn't about to be caught with its pants down twice. 

Quote

 

Back in January, China sealed off Hubei province and banned travel from there into the rest of the country. They did not, however, ban travel from there to the rest of the world.

And by the way... how wonderfully nice and caring of them. Thanks again, China.

Now shouldn't someone in our government have reacted to that? China was saying this province was so dangerous, so filled with sickness, they had to seal it off. Yet we had no issues with allowing thousands of people to come here from Hubei, waving them through without any screening. Yes, Trudeau failed us. Tam failed us. Hadju failed us. The department of health failed us. The Public Health Agency, created after SARS for this specific eventuality, completely failed us.

 

Apparently there were people in our government who started reacting in early January motivated in part on intelligence that should have been reacted to in November....by agencies that were created after SARS for this specific eventuality.

Lets be honest here the real buck stops with us because human beings suck at properly checking their politics at the door and screening their governments for better transparency and accountability not to mention simple workmanship.

Edited April 11, 2020 by eyeball

[Rue]

18 hours ago, WestCanMan said:

I think the biggest thing to come from all of this will be changes to the subway systems and other mass transit and aviation systems worldwide. 

I think that masks are going to become far more popular than ever, there may be mandatory hand-sanitizing at entrance points to transit stations and airports, more focus on air filtration or exhaust systems within subway trains and planes, maybe UV lighting (which kills germs) instead of normal lighting, etc.

Airports already employ TIC cameras that monitor people's body temperature to detect people with fevers, I wouldn't be surprised to see that kind of thing creep into some subway systems worldwide as well. Right now there's nothing stopping someone with a fever from getting on the subway, I think that may be a thing of the past.

Up until now the world was very slob-friendly, I think the new normal will be more OCD-friendly. I may not be able to adapt.

Oh please you can handle anything dude...well except us Trump haters and pinkos..actually I too will be interested to see what changes come about...hopefully positive ones...not dumb shit like beating someone to death who sneezes...

[WestCanMan]

Just now, Rue said:

Oh please you can handle anything dude...well except us Trump haters and pinkos..actually I too will be interested to see what changes come about...hopefully positive ones...not dumb shit like beating someone to death who sneezes...

This is a bad era for people who have allergies.

Allergies suck to begin with: burning watery eyes, itchy nose, sneezing, blowing tons of snot.... Now in the covid/post-covid era people bring out the torches and pitchforks if you so much as sniffle. 

If my allergy shots this year don't work out I'm gonna get a medical bracelet just so that I don't have to worry about getting drop-kicked every time I sneeze.

[Rue]

9 minutes ago, WestCanMan said:

This is a bad era for people who have allergies.

Allergies suck to begin with: burning watery eyes, itchy nose, sneezing, blowing tons of snot.... Now in the covid/post-covid era people bring out the torches and pitchforks if you so much as sniffle. 

If my allergy shots this year don't work out I'm gonna get a medical bracelet just so that I don't have to worry about getting drop-kicked every time I sneeze.

Lol. 

[eyeball]

2 hours ago, Rue said:

..actually I too will be interested to see what changes come about...hopefully positive ones...not dumb shit like beating someone to death who sneezes...

No kidding, brings out my inner futurist.  Fuck hindsight.

That said, I predict a return to some of the old fashioned things some of us grew up with but with a new twist.   Walmart parking lots will evolve from being drive-in testing stations to drive-in vaccination centers and from there shift to drive-in movies.  We'll shop at night and watch a movie while our cart goes about the store filling itself for us. We'll be served cold beer and popcorn via drones and won't have to worry about driving home drunk because our autonomous car will have everything under control. And it'll all be free!

It'll be the sourpusses who don't get it pushing rusty old shopping carts around town shaking their fists and hollering at things no one else can see.

[Argus]

One of the few provinces which was alert and did their job - Alberta, already had a stockpile of PPE. They started ordering lots more when they heard what was happening in China, and Alberta did a better job getting hold of their cases, doing way more testing per capita than Ontario or Quebec. As a result, Alberta is now shipping N95 and surgical masks and ventilators from its storehouses to Ontario, Quebec and BC. So good on Alberta.

The AHS team kicked into gear long before the rest of the world knew that a frightening new infectious disease was spreading.

Jitendra “J.P.” Prasad, who runs the AHS supply procurement system, is always on the lookout for terrible diseases that might impact supply and demand. He and his team heard disturbing news about a “strange flu” in Wuhan, China, in early December, Prasad said. “We have contacts from China and a lot of the conversation from them was, ‘Hey, J.P., we think something is happening that may impact us.'”

In mid-December, Prasad’s team looked at how to increase stock. If they were placing an order for five days’ supply of masks, gloves and gowns, they now doubled the order, increasing their emergency stockpile. In late December, AHS took its boldest step. Based on the Wuhan situation, management approved a huge new buy of equipment, including about 500,000 additional N95 masks.

https://edmontonjournal.com/opinion/columnists/david-staples-masterminds-behind-albertas-medical-supplies-surge-to-meet-covid-19-crisis/

[OftenWrong]

EU and the United States requiring airlines to issue refunds, not vouchers. Our Canadian PM declined from issues the same order, taking money out of Canadian's pockets.Someone I know go a voucher for one year. In one year, the virus will barely be gone. Even if the virus were gone in say 6-9 months, people are not going to want to travel right after that.

Did Mr. Trudeau fail Canadians on Covid-91?

[eyeball]

25 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

EU and the United States requiring airlines to issue refunds, not vouchers. Our Canadian PM declined from issues the same order, taking money out of Canadian's pockets.Someone I know go a voucher for one year. In one year, the virus will barely be gone. Even if the virus were gone in say 6-9 months, people are not going to want to travel right after that.

Did Mr. Trudeau fail Canadians on Covid-91?

How much do you want to bet our airlines will be told to follow suit?  Is there some new overarching global government ordering everyone to all do the same thing at the same time? They all seem to get around to doing the same basic thing but just not in a very coordinated way.  Probably an effect of everyone just kinda making it up as they go. Most of the manuals and instructions on what to do seem to have been misplaced or thrown out.  Oh well practice makes perfect, maybe we'll do better next time.

Edited April 12, 2020 by eyeball

[OftenWrong]

13 minutes ago, eyeball said:

How much do you want to bet our airlines will be told to follow suit?  Is there some new overarching global government ordering everyone to all do the same thing at the same time? They all seem to get around to doing the same basic thing but just not in a very coordinated way.  Probably an effect of everyone just kinda making it up as they go. Most of the manuals and instructions on what to do seem to have been misplaced or thrown out.  Oh well practice makes perfect, maybe we'll do better next time.

Far be it from me to take hope away from you on this Easter Sunday, all ye who put faith in governments. But I am compelled by my God-

Coronavirus: U.S. and EU give airline passengers refunds, but Canada sticks with vouchers
 

Quote

“The airlines will drag their feet to give a refund and they are hoping that the Americans and the EU will change their mind, basically go back to the way the Canadian government has taken it and say, ‘No cash, we’ll just offer a voucher.’

 

“The government is misleading the public. The laws and the regulations with respect to airlines have not changed whatsoever,” Lukacs told Global News in an interview.

“The federal regulator issued an unlawful statement with respect to vouchers which has no basis whatsoever in law.

It's not been overlooked as you imply. It's been decided.

[jacee]

On 4/11/2020 at 2:47 PM, WestCanMan said:

This is a bad era for people who have allergies.

Allergies suck to begin with: burning watery eyes, itchy nose, sneezing, blowing tons of snot.... Now in the covid/post-covid era people bring out the torches and pitchforks if you so much as sniffle. 

If my allergy shots this year don't work out I'm gonna get a medical bracelet just so that I don't have to worry about getting drop-kicked every time I sneeze.

Same here. I wore a mask in public first time yesterday. With that and my runny nose, I had NO trouble getting people to keep their distance.  Lol 

[jacee]

On 4/9/2020 at 11:53 AM, Shady said:

Trudeau’s continued inaction is an abomination.  Businesses still haven’t received relief money.  Individuals out of work still haven’t received relief money.  Some hospitals in Toronto are running low on supplies.  People are losing their livelihoods.  Some businesses will go bankrupt before they can reopen.  The Prime Minister must act!

Individuals out of work were receiving funds as you wrote this post, within 2 days of application. Help for businesses was also announced last week.

That speed of getting money out the door is unprecedented.

I shudder to think of the chaos we'd be in right now with a Conservative government: People losing their homes while Conservatives shovelled useless billions to the dying Alberta oil industry! 

 

[Shady]

38 minutes ago, jacee said:

Individuals out of work were receiving funds as you wrote this post, within 2 days of application. Help for businesses was also announced last week.

That speed of getting money out the door is unprecedented.

I shudder to think of the chaos we'd be in right now with a Conservative government: People losing their homes while Conservatives shovelled useless billions to the dying Alberta oil industry! 

 

Complete nonsense.  People and businesses are still waiting for relief, this is unacceptable!  Why won’t he act!

6-week delay for business bailout amid coronavirus pandemic may be too long

https://globalnews.ca/news/6767752/6-week-delay-for-business-bailout-amid-coronavirus-pandemic-may-be-too-long-biz-orgs/