Did Trudeau Fail His Country On Covid-19

[Shady]

1 hour ago, Argus said:

I think they're both idiots. And neither has done very well here. I'd give Trump a D- and Trudeau a D

I actually don't blame either of them.  It's a highly contagious virus which is impossible to stop from spreading.  Especially when the host country, China, hid what was really going on until they absolutely couldn't keep it secret anymore.

[marcus]

47 minutes ago, Argus said:

Where is this 'leadership' you speak of? Like Theresa Tam telling us everything is fine and we'll only get a few 'rare' cases, then sternly telling us how we need to self isolate?

I don't think anyone is disputing the mistakes made with the initial response. 

47 minutes ago, Argus said:

Like both levels of government telling us not to travel to our cottages to sit out the virus - after Sophie Gregoire took the kids and left for Harrington Lake? Maybe the government dismissing travel restrictions as less than useless then imposing them a few days later?

Trudeau is self-isolating so the family had to go somewhere else. You're reaching.

47 minutes ago, Argus said:

I see none of this 'leadership' of which you speak.

Since the Canadian government came to the understanding that this is more serious than they initially thought, I believe they have been quite consistent and adamant about their message to the Canadians. This is not the case for Trump. Trump, as recent as last week, was standing on stage, contradicting his own top health officials, standing with him on the stage. 

This is the difference.

What I find curious are people who criticize Trudeau, and then turn around and want to give Trump a pass (not you). Why does this happen? Pure ignorance? Is it intentional? If it is, then they lack the mental maturity. They are more aligned with victory than personal conviction.

47 minutes ago, Argus said:

Indeed, Tam is asking a lot of Canadians to set aside a lot of common sense right now. There is ample evidence that face masks — even homemade ones — can provide significant protection to the uninfected. But Tam warns only of the potential pitfalls: Masks can provide “a false sense of security,” lead to more face-touching or make us forget to wash our hands. “Putting a mask on an asymptomatic person is not beneficial,” she said at her Monday press conference.

That makes sense to a lot of medical professionals. A lot of regular people, however, are pretty sure they know how to wash their hands and not touch their faces. When officials say “masks don’t work,” a lot of regular people hear “we have an inexcusable shortage of masks for frontline healthcare workers so please give us your masks.” When officials say “you don’t need to be tested,” they are likely to hear “we have inexcusably few tests available and not enough lab capacity to process the ones we have.”

https://ottawacitizen.com/opinion/chris-selley-official-nonsense-on-masks-and-travel-bans-is-killing-ottawas-coronavirus-credibility/wcm/709519ba-abe5-4cbf-9193-e1956ae4bac2/

Results from successful countries have shown that masks and testing are the major factors in controlling the spread. The problem is that Canada doesn't have enough masks and even though Canada has done the highest number of testing as compared to other Western countries, they should be pushing to do more. So it's a PR stunt. Tam should be upfront about the lack of supplies and equipment.

 

[WestCanMan]

11 hours ago, marcus said:

Trudeau and Trump messed up. They moved too slowly. No one can say otherwise. 

However, since then, who has done a better job at handling the situation? Why do you think Canada has had a much better response to the pandemic? It's because of better leadership from the federal, provincial and municipal governments. Trudeau has outperformed Trump, both in action and in words since the initial response. 

Just own up Marcus, ffs.

You start off with "they both messed up", but the truth of the matter is that Trudeau and his equally useless team totally botched every single aspect of managing this outbreak right up until March 19th and our country was tanked at that point. Trump hadn't screwed up nearly as badly at the beginning of this. That's why Trudeau is copying Trump, and not the other way around. 

Aside from bad advice given out by the NYC mayor and public health officials, the US was better off than Canada from Jan 31st right up until this very second.

It's the US, Trump, and Fox News that started covering the clinical success of anti-viral drugs vs covid. Not CBC, not CNN, not Trudeau. CNN did bash those drugs, and when some idiot died from eating fish tank cleaner because it's got Chloroquine Phosphate in it, members of the MSM blamed Trump, as usual. 

It's the FDA that's getting drugs tested and approved for public consumption, not Trudeau or any of our government agencies. When the lid comes off of this covid quarantine, and the Coward of the Country comes out from his basement, it will be because of actions taken by Trump and the FDA and our little village idiot won't have had a thing to do with it. 

[eyeball]

4 minutes ago, WestCanMan said:

That's why Trudeau is copying Trump, and not the other way around. 

So are 200000 dead Canadians a best case scenario or should we expect three times as many Canadians will die now?

[PIK]

52 minutes ago, marcus said:

I don't think anyone is disputing the mistakes made with the initial response. 

Trudeau is self-isolating so the family had to go somewhere else. You're reaching.

Since the Canadian government came to the understanding that this is more serious than they initially thought, I believe they have been quite consistent and adamant about their message to the Canadians. This is not the case for Trump. Trump, as recent as last week, was standing on stage, contradicting his own top health officials, standing with him on the stage. 

This is the difference.

What I find curious are people who criticize Trudeau, and then turn around and want to give Trump a pass (not you). Why does this happen? Pure ignorance? Is it intentional? If it is, then they lack the mental maturity. They are more aligned with victory than personal conviction.

Results from successful countries have shown that masks and testing are the major factors in controlling the spread. The problem is that Canada doesn't have enough masks and even though Canada has done the highest number of testing as compared to other Western countries, they should be pushing to do more. So it's a PR stunt. Tam should be upfront about the lack of supplies and equipment.

 

Why did trudeau self isolate? His wife has the virus . He should have done a test and left the house if negative.. But he stayed home.

[Yzermandius19]

7 hours ago, Boges said:

It's, quite frankly, hilarious that Trump isn't at all to blame for the dire situation the US is in. And at the same time, Trudeau IS to blame for a crisis that hasn't yet materialized in Canada. 

Partisanship indeed. 

Some of us don't blame either. Those with Trudeau Derangement Syndrome and Trump Derangement Syndrome blame one or both.

Edited March 31, 2020 by Yzermandius19

[eyeball]

1 hour ago, PIK said:

Why did trudeau self isolate? His wife has the virus . He should have done a test and left the house if negative.. But he stayed home.

He stayed home because that is precisely what every person in a household with an infected person is expected to do. Maybe Trudeau should have kicked his wife out, would that have made you feel better?

Probably, because then you'd have even more to complain about.

Edited March 31, 2020 by eyeball

[WestCanMan]

2 hours ago, eyeball said:

So are 200000 dead Canadians a best case scenario or should we expect three times as many Canadians will die now?

If we had over 4M people riding the subway in one city every day we'd be on a much higher pace, seeing as we took less precautions.

[eyeball]

5 minutes ago, WestCanMan said:

If we had over 4M people riding the subway in one city every day we'd be on a much higher pace, seeing as we took less precautions.

Hmmm it's almost like someone knew the precautions we were taking in Canada were adequate and someone in the US didn't.

[WestCanMan]

6 minutes ago, eyeball said:

Hmmm it's almost like someone knew the precautions we were taking in Canada were adequate and someone in the US didn't.

Nope. If our preparations were adequate then our 400 sq km parks would be open and we'd have less deaths.

[eyeball]

29 minutes ago, WestCanMan said:

Nope. If our preparations were adequate then our 400 sq km parks would be open and we'd have less deaths.

 

Quote

All Parks Canada facilities are temporarily closed, all visitor services and all motor vehicle access by visitors are suspended until further notice.

https://www.pc.gc.ca/en/voyage-travel/securite-safety/covid-19-info

 

Quote

While most facilities and events are closed or canceled, many of our outdoor spaces remain accessible to the public

https://www.nps.gov/index.htm

 

Our parks are closed and we have three times less the infection and death rate.

BTW do US parks have subway systems packed with people or something?

Edited March 31, 2020 by eyeball

[Argus]

4 hours ago, Shady said:

I actually don't blame either of them.  It's a highly contagious virus which is impossible to stop from spreading.  Especially when the host country, China, hid what was really going on until they absolutely couldn't keep it secret anymore.

If we look at what a good government does we can't ignore risk management as being extremely important. Look down the road at what sorts of things might happen, and try to be ready for them. In this case, that would have meant having a large stockpile of PPE, just to start. It's not like it's even expensive. And it's not like SARS was that far in the past that everyone forgot.

Then we look at what other governments did which were alert to risks heading towards them, and what level of mitigation their alertness resulted in, and compare that to what the US and Canada did (nothing), and we can see their failure. They weren't alone in their failure. Most western governments failed. But I'm looking to judge my own, and I judge them poorly.

If the government in Taiwan was in charge here in Canada many of these deaths would have been avoided.

Edited March 31, 2020 by Argus

[Argus]

40 minutes ago, eyeball said:

Hmmm it's almost like someone knew the precautions we were taking in Canada were adequate and someone in the US didn't.

What precautions? Name these precautions we were taking.

[Argus]

1 hour ago, Yzermandius19 said:

Some of us don't blame either. Those with Trudeau Derangement Syndrome and Trump Derangement Syndrome blame one or both.

Maybe we simply have higher standards than you.

[eyeball]

4 minutes ago, Argus said:

What precautions? Name these precautions we were taking.

Taking the precaution of not putting politics first and blaming the opposition for everything comes to mind.

Edited March 31, 2020 by eyeball

[Argus]

3 hours ago, marcus said:

I don't think anyone is disputing the mistakes made with the initial response. 

The problem I have is that it is the initial response which governed everything that followed. The initial response to there being a horrible new SARS-like disease spreading wildly through China was "Gee, look at how pretty the clouds are." They completely ignored it. They made no preparations of any kind.

3 hours ago, marcus said:

Trudeau is self-isolating so the family had to go somewhere else. You're reaching.

He's self-isolating because he might have caught something from Sophie? But why isn't Sophie staying with him? She's not in any danger. And the kids were apparently there the whole time so where is the need for them to take off to the country?

3 hours ago, marcus said:

Since the Canadian government came to the understanding that this is more serious than they initially thought, I believe they have been quite consistent and adamant about their message to the Canadians.

And how bloody long did that take? This is not hindsight. I ordered more masks back in January, just in case. Nor was I alone. Why is it individual Canadians could foresee a likely problem and the government couldn't?

3 hours ago, marcus said:

This is not the case for Trump. Trump, as recent as last week, was standing on stage, contradicting his own top health officials, standing with him on the stage. 

Trump is a drooling moron. Doing better than him is a really low bar. It's like people who praise our health care system because it's at least better than the Americans.

3 hours ago, marcus said:

Results from successful countries have shown that masks and testing are the major factors in controlling the spread.

WRONG! The Canadian government continues to insist that masks are worse than useless. And why do they keep saying that?

3 hours ago, marcus said:

The problem is that Canada doesn't have enough masks

Exactly. Because we had no stockpiles, and because we did not make any big orders for more back in January.

3 hours ago, marcus said:

and even though Canada has done the highest number of testing as compared to other Western countries, they should be pushing to do more. So it's a PR stunt. Tam should be upfront about the lack of supplies and equipment.

Australia has out-tested us, actually. They were one of the countries which saw what was happening in China and began preparing for it. Their infection rate is slowing substantially and they have 19 dead.

[Argus]

12 minutes ago, eyeball said:

Taking the precaution of not putting politics first and blaming the opposition for everything comes to mind.

So you got nothing then.

[eyeball]

6 minutes ago, Argus said:

So you got nothing then.

You honestly think blaming the opposition is the correct action?  Even you recognize how China's dictatorship put politics first with the result being a wider more rapid spread of this disease.  Why wouldn't politics first result in the same thing anywhere it becomes a strategy or tactic?

[Argus]

14 minutes ago, eyeball said:

You honestly think blaming the opposition is the correct action?  Even you recognize how China's dictatorship put politics first with the result being a wider more rapid spread of this disease. 

I have blamed every govenrment involved which did not take precautions, including Doug Ford's. It has nothing to do with politics.

[cannuck]

5 hours ago, Argus said:

Can. I suppose. But let's consider that we're being told to cough into the inside of our elbows. Given your analyses of the uselessness of masks, that would suggest coughing into our elbows or hands even is even more pointless because there'll be leaks. I've now seen a couple of stories on this, one on CTV, one on ABC, both questioning the way western governments are dismissing masks. And several doctors, including the top guy in the US, Anthony Fauci admitted that they are reconsidering, and if they had enough masks they might well be telling people to wear them.

IMHO, it is exactly the same risk as a poor fitting (i.e. any and all paper and/or cloth) mask.  The big gobs (relatively speaking, excuse my convenient use of the language) will land on the cloth of whatever you are wearing but the very small particles and droplets will simply blow by.  On top of that, if the cougher/sneezer was infectious, you now have a surface highly contaminated that will be subject to transfer to their surroundings while still wet, and possibly to emit live virus if the moisture is dried and someone strikes the area.   BTW: just to make you (and my wife) happy: I wore my 3m commercial re-useable mask today.   Wanted to get another pair of appropriate cartridges, but you can't even find them on their website!!!!

[Argus]

Just now, cannuck said:

IMHO, it is exactly the same risk as a poor fitting (i.e. any and all paper and/or cloth) mask.  The big gobs (relatively speaking, excuse my convenient use of the language) will land on the cloth of whatever you are wearing but the very small particles and droplets will simply blow by.

But the bigger ones are the bigger risk. The more of the virus you get on you the worse.

Just now, cannuck said:

On top of that, if the cougher/sneezer was infectious, you now have a surface highly contaminated that will be subject to transfer to their surroundings while still wet, and possibly to emit live virus if the moisture is dried and someone strikes the area. 

But for the most part Covid-19 produces dry coughs, so I'm not sure how contaminated they make everything. I am relatively sure some protection is better than none.

Just now, cannuck said:

BTW: just to make you (and my wife) happy: I wore my 3m commercial re-useable mask today.   Wanted to get another pair of appropriate cartridges, but you can't even find them on their website!!!!

A P100 mask? Got one of those off Amazon last month in case things get bad. Everyone was tearing places apart looking for the N95 at the time, but apparently had never heard of the P100s. I guess that's changed.

BTW, CBC news story says the Czech Republic and Austria have now joined Asian countries in mandating the wearing of masks outdoors. They also cited a study by Oxford which said the coronavirus is an unusual one where everyone wearing masks could actually be quite helpful in that so many have the virus and are contagious but exhibit no symptoms.

[eyeball]

14 minutes ago, Argus said:

I have blamed every govenrment involved which did not take precautions, including Doug Ford's. It has nothing to do with politics.

Have you praised any, especially any with a bent opposite to your own?  I did, especially Doug Ford's because of his humanity.

Although I have to say beer at a buck a bottle really would have been a nice touch in these times. Talk about dropping a really important ball.

Edited March 31, 2020 by eyeball

[Argus]

3 minutes ago, eyeball said:

Have you praised any, especially any with a bent opposite to your own?  I did, especially Doug Ford's because of his humanity.

The only thing which impresses me is actions taken to mitigate the damage of this. So the countries I have praised are South Korea, Singapore, and Taiwan. A step below that are Australia and Germany.

Edited March 31, 2020 by Argus

[eyeball]

14 minutes ago, Argus said:

The only thing which impresses me is actions taken to mitigate the damage of this. So the countries I have praised are South Korea, Singapore, and Taiwan. A step below that are Australia and Germany.

I'm willing to bet politicians in these places didn't waste a lot of time blaming their opposition for their problems.

[cannuck]

1 hour ago, Argus said:

1. But the bigger ones are the bigger risk. The more of the virus you get on you the worse.

2.  But for the most part Covid-19 produces dry coughs, so I'm not sure how contaminated they make everything. I am relatively sure some protection is better than none.

3. A P100 mask? Got one of those off Amazon last month in case things get bad. Everyone was tearing places apart looking for the N95 at the time, but apparently had never heard of the P100s. I guess that's changed.

4. BTW, CBC news story says the Czech Republic and Austria have now joined Asian countries in mandating the wearing of masks outdoors. They also cited a study by Oxford which said the coronavirus is an unusual one where everyone wearing masks could actually be quite helpful in that so many have the virus and are contagious but exhibit no symptoms.

1. Yes, viral loading contributes to severity of infection.  Still doesn't make it fatal (I think it accelerates progress) but usually it takes some other compromise to do the worst.  I am not the bio-guy, but my kids are, as are several friends. I believe it is the auto-immune like response to Wuhan Virus that compromises immunity and allows other conditions to succeed or heavily contribute.  Still trying to get my mechanical mind to wrap around those things.

2.  No cough is "dry".   Yes, less "wet" but every cough and sneeze aspirates a LOT of liquid, and it is these tiny liquid droplets (of a "dry" cough) that are so light (and contain CoV) that can stay airborne for a few HOURS.  Low dose,  but kind of beyond the simple 2 M distance when it comes to risk.   The ultimate safe requirement would be 2 meters UPWIND for at least 3 hours.   A person totally asymptomatic could become a carrier, never have any such idea and go on to infect someone even though they were only lightly dosed from their dry cough encounter.   The sick or dead person at the receiving end doesn't really care how minor the carrier's infection was.

3.  Yes, a P100 with I forget which cartridge right off hand (bought some time ago).  Of course, it is the rubber seal that is the reason to do so. 

4.  That is really interesting but completely speculative as to efficacy. If you will allow me to take the words right out of your mouth (or the strokes off of your keyboard)> all irrelevant since we don't have any.

Edited April 1, 2020 by cannuck