The Coronavirus

[Zeitgeist]

2 minutes ago, WestCanMan said:

Dude, CBC is an epic failure on the important issue of holding our PM accountable, and they showed massive bias in elevating the $90K duffygate scandal into the issue of the century.

Quickly try to think of something that got more coverage than $90K duffygate on CBC..........

Russian collusion? Yep, But it turned out to be fake, and no one is truly surprised. But did they talk about the FBI malfeasance that happened in that case? Nope. Thats a pretty big deal, but nope.

Kavanaugh? Sure, briefly, but they were exercising journalistic bias on that topic and they were on the wrong side of history.

9/11. OK, sure.

Did they give SNC, an actual scandal, that much coverage? Nope. Did they even touch on one of the main topics in that scandal? Nope. Do you even know why it's so vastly significant that Trudeau was caught helping them, of all the companies in Canada? Probably not. It has nothing to do with where the people at SNC live and work.

CBC acted like Trudeau was the greatest thing since sliced bread for 4 years, then when Scheer lost the election (but won the popular vote) the CBC came out with an attack on Scheer for losing the election despite all of Trudeau's scandals and crimes.  WTF? Talk about coming out of left field. 

CBC is a total farce. Watching CBC is like drinking stupidity from a firehose. 

 

I don’t even like Trudeau or the current Liberal Party of Canada, but your partisanship is so blatant.  CBC is the general educated consensus, not unlike the Globe and Mail (which is traditionally conservative by the way).  Your views seem more emotional and reactive than rational.  

[eyeball]

1 hour ago, OftenWrong said:

I do not see the numbers for Canada flattening out. It looks to me actually that the death rate for Canada, and indeed for the world as a whole, is still increasing. I can back that up if you don't believe me. By increasing I mean the infection rate and death rate are both going up, not holding steady and not going down yet.

If this is true, please justify your (the government's) position it's ok to relax now, given that more people are being infected and dying each day now than ever before.

Wait a minute, I thought you bought into the laissez faire approach when you found out I was on the dole?

[OftenWrong]

18 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

April 20 was the high point, but we have increased testing and numbers are flattening.  

You're looking at single points, that's not how to understand the trend. April 20 was 1773, Apr 23 1920, April 24 1778.

There are regular peaks and valley there, explainable by the data gathering process. But the general trend for the data is going up.

Increased testing shows that the virus is widespread. That only affects the ratios on a spreadsheet. It does not negate that more people are dying each day compared to the day before, and this will continue for a good 2 more months before there is a measurable decline in the rate.

[Zeitgeist]

14 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

You're looking at single points, that's not how to understand the trend. April 20 was 1773, Apr 23 1920, April 24 1778.

There are regular peaks and valley there, explainable by the data gathering process. But the general trend for the data is going up.

Increased testing shows that the virus is widespread. That only affects the ratios on a spreadsheet. It does not negate that more people are dying each day compared to the day before, and this will continue for a good 2 more months before there is a measurable decline in the rate.

I don’t know where you’re getting your stats, but they disagree with what I’ve seen.  It was over 2000 on the 20th.  I disagree that the death rate will continue to climb under current restrictions, though there will be occasional spikes.  It will decline.  Nevertheless, once we open up there will likely be spikes and outbreaks.  We will have to decide how much risk is reasonable, and not just in the short-term due to C-19 deaths.   There are other costs that cause other forms of death.  

Edited April 26, 2020 by Zeitgeist

[OftenWrong]

42 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

I don’t know where you’re getting your stats, but they disagree with what I’ve seen.  It was over 2000 on the 20th.

I provided you with the link where I get "my stats". Forget it.

Quote

I disagree that the death rate will continue to climb under current restrictions, though there will be occasional spikes.  It will decline. 

You disagree. Good enough then I guess.

[-TSS-]

If you have a big house and a garden then a lockdown and self-isolation is not such a problem but if you live on the 15th floor of a tower block and you are told to stay there for weeks it is no wonder if some people start öosing their minds.

[eyeball]

23 minutes ago, -TSS- said:

If you have a big house and a garden then a lockdown and self-isolation is not such a problem but if you live on the 15th floor of a tower block and you are told to stay there for weeks it is no wonder if some people start öosing their minds.

Even better if your boat is a five minute walk down the road and a ten minute row to your crab-trap. Sometimes there's a lot to be said for hunting and gathering.  I feel pretty fortunate.  I can only imagine how desperate things are going to get locked down in a big cities during heat waves followed by a fall resurgence of disease, another winter of unbelievable discontent and who knows what after that...I would have given a 90% chance we'd make it thru okay but 50 is all I'm willing to go now and gravity's pull is palpable.

I'm reminded of the old Foundation Trilogy  Perhaps I live in a region that could be likened to a Foundation world, civilized and advanced while distant and remote from a crumbling Empire.  Hopefully a calm path thru the interregnum towards the next and better Empire but I'd probably feel even more fortunate if I was even farther away. Planet B always sounded like a smart idea.

[WestCanMan]

7 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

I don’t even like Trudeau or the current Liberal Party of Canada, but your partisanship is so blatant.  CBC is the general educated consensus, not unlike the Globe and Mail (which is traditionally conservative by the way).  Your views seem more emotional and reactive than rational.  

You think it's the consensus because you don't think.

There was never any consensus that Dr Ford needed to believed. Not one intelligent person ever said that. Some people didn't like the way Kavanaugh defended himself, that's it.

CBC/CTV started off the Russian collusion thing by musing aloud whether or not Trump committed treason when he asked the Russians to find Hillary's emails. It was completely insipid, it set the tone for what was to follow.

If you think about what CBC is really saying, you can catch them lying often. You shouldn't be bale to do that. That's not emotion, that's just not allowing yourself to get BSed.

You don't even think the WHO needs to be investigated. That's not emotional. There's no consensus needed whatsoever. I'm well aware of the wrong advice the WHO gave, and how many lives it cost, and an investigation is needed regardless of whether I'm the only person on earth who noticed, or whether there's "consensus."

 

[Zeitgeist]

1 hour ago, WestCanMan said:

You think it's the consensus because you don't think.

There was never any consensus that Dr Ford needed to believed. Not one intelligent person ever said that. Some people didn't like the way Kavanaugh defended himself, that's it.

CBC/CTV started off the Russian collusion thing by musing aloud whether or not Trump committed treason when he asked the Russians to find Hillary's emails. It was completely insipid, it set the tone for what was to follow.

If you think about what CBC is really saying, you can catch them lying often. You shouldn't be bale to do that. That's not emotion, that's just not allowing yourself to get BSed.

You don't even think the WHO needs to be investigated. That's not emotional. There's no consensus needed whatsoever. I'm well aware of the wrong advice the WHO gave, and how many lives it cost, and an investigation is needed regardless of whether I'm the only person on earth who noticed, or whether there's "consensus."

 

Feel free to investigate.   Trump’s attack on Hilary was over the top and Russia did get involved in the election.  How much Trump was directly involved in that we’ll probably never know, but his pressure on Ukraine to investigate Biden was sketchy at best.  

[WestCanMan]

2 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

Feel free to investigate.   Trump’s attack on Hilary was over the top and Russia did get involved in the election.  How much Trump was directly involved in that we’ll probably never know, but his pressure on Ukraine to investigate Biden was sketchy at best.  

Hillary destroyed evidence that was required by subpoena. It's not the first time, evidence that was subpoenaed for Whitewater that "went missing" turned up in the Whitehouse. https://www.nytimes.com/1996/01/06/us/elusive-papers-of-law-firm-are-found-at-white-house.html

So, you aren't able to name a single thing that the WHO would have done differently if they wanted to spread the pandemic faster, yet you're claiming that Trump is wrong to cut their funding pending an investigation. I can name things that Trump would have done differently if he wanted Americans to get the pandemic. So you're backed into a corner and you still don't want to fess up that the WHO needs to be investigated. 

You are a total bullshitter Zeitgeist. You know the truth and you're pushing lies. You are a liar. 100% certifiable liar. 

[eyeball]

48 minutes ago, WestCanMan said:

I can name things that Trump would have done differently if he wanted Americans to get the pandemic.

Yeah but like everything else he does he would have only cocked it up.  America should have been so lucky.

[WestCanMan]

1 hour ago, eyeball said:

Yeah but like everything else he does he would have only cocked it up.  America should have been so lucky.

The fact remains that he did everything better than Trudeau did, and earlier. 
 

We only had 1,600 deaths here so far, if Trudeau had just copied Trump we’d probably have 1/4 of that. 

[dialamah]

3 hours ago, WestCanMan said:

The fact remains that he did everything better than Trudeau did, and earlier. 
We only had 1,600 deaths here so far, if Trudeau had just copied Trump we’d probably have 1/4 of that. 

Wow, are you visiting from a different reality?  Trump did NOTHING that helped the States; even his much admired 'travel ban' was a flop since it banned virtually nobody.   The States has done much worse than Canada; what a shame they didn't follow Trudeau's example.

To start with, we are testing at 9,812 per million; the States at 7,181 per million.

The States has 2,991 cases per million people, has lost at least 0.017% (55,417 people) of it's population to Coronavirus;  so far, 0.31%  (988,975) of it's population has tested positive for the disease.

Canada has 1,234 cases per million people, lost 0.008% (2,673 people) of it's population to Coronavirus; 0.13% (46,895) of our population has tested positive.

If we were doing 'as well as' the States, we'd have had 5,913 deaths by this point, with at least 105,000 testing positive.    

This site shows us that currently, the US has the most cases and the most deaths of any country in the world, including China.   Perhaps some other countries will catch up and surpass the States, but to claim that we ought to have followed Trump's example and we'd be doing better is complete and utter nonsense.

[Boges]

7 hours ago, WestCanMan said:

The fact remains that he did everything better than Trudeau did, and earlier. 
 

We only had 1,600 deaths here so far, if Trudeau had just copied Trump we’d probably have 1/4 of that. 

That's BS. 

There's evidence that the virus was here in January. Blocking travel to China didn't stop any of this from happening. 

AND that the big influx of carriers came from Europe and not China. 

What needed to be done, and which no leader had the stomach for, until the NBA pulled the trigger and stopped game play, is having all this Social Distancing crap started in early March or even in February. 

We could have isolated the spread. But that's all hindsight. No one would have accepted it until they saw what happened in Italy, Spain and French and then in New York. Then most rational people were on board. 

[OftenWrong]

27 minutes ago, Boges said:

What needed to be done, and which no leader had the stomach for, until the NBA pulled the trigger and stopped game play, is having all this Social Distancing crap started in early March or even in February.

I completely disagree, and there is scientific evidence now mounting to prove that extensive harsh shutdown and social distancing do not provide significant reduction in spread of the disease, unless you go to absurd lengths that are in themselves equally disastrous and harmful. Likely that is why "no world leader had the stomach for" what you think is helpful.

Are you not paying any attention at all at what this shutdown is doing in terms of other types of repercussions? There's enough information out there to show we must stop what we are doing now. There really is no choice in the matter.

[dialamah]

21 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

I completely disagree, and there is scientific evidence now mounting to prove that extensive harsh shutdown and social distancing do not provide significant reduction in spread of the disease,

Yeah, I've seen that ... some pro-Trump rag pushing an Israeli scientist's idea that the virus has a 70-day cycle, and social distancing makes no difference 

In the meantime, old folks and their caretakers are getting decimated because ... no social distancing.   And Mission prison now had 50% infection rate, because no social distancing and once it starts, it just keeps going. 

Every single country in the world sees rates of infection start to decline when social distancing is implemented, or the curve remain low if implemented quickly.  But some random scientist goes against all the evidence out there and suddenly everybody else is wrong.

This claim is along the same intelligence curve as "maybe injecting a disinfectant would work.  Are you looking into that?

 

[New World Disorder]

8 hours ago, WestCanMan said:

The fact remains that he did everything better than Trudeau did, and earlier. 
 

We only had 1,600 deaths here so far, if Trudeau had just copied Trump we’d probably have 1/4 of that. 

Should look at how they are classifying these deaths.  It seems they are over blowing this and counting anything as a covid death.

[WestCanMan]

4 hours ago, dialamah said:

Wow, are you visiting from a different reality?  Trump did NOTHING that helped the States; even his much admired 'travel ban' was a flop since it banned virtually nobody.   The States has done much worse than Canada; what a shame they didn't follow Trudeau's example.

To start with, we are testing at 9,812 per million; the States at 7,181 per million.

The States has 2,991 cases per million people, has lost at least 0.017% (55,417 people) of it's population to Coronavirus;  so far, 0.31%  (988,975) of it's population has tested positive for the disease.

Canada has 1,234 cases per million people, lost 0.008% (2,673 people) of it's population to Coronavirus; 0.13% (46,895) of our population has tested positive.

If we were doing 'as well as' the States, we'd have had 5,913 deaths by this point, with at least 105,000 testing positive.    

This site shows us that currently, the US has the most cases and the most deaths of any country in the world, including China.   Perhaps some other countries will catch up and surpass the States, but to claim that we ought to have followed Trump's example and we'd be doing better is complete and utter nonsense.

Utter stupidity.

You are praising the guy who followed the WHO's orders, which directly aided the spread of the virus, and making stupid, ineffectual criticisms of the person who took the correct actions to prevent a pandemic.

 

[WestCanMan]

1 hour ago, Boges said:

That's BS. 

There's evidence that the virus was here in January. Blocking travel to China didn't stop any of this from happening. 

AND that the big influx of carriers came from Europe and not China. 

What needed to be done, and which no leader had the stomach for, until the NBA pulled the trigger and stopped game play, is having all this Social Distancing crap started in early March or even in February. 

We could have isolated the spread. But that's all hindsight. No one would have accepted it until they saw what happened in Italy, Spain and French and then in New York. Then most rational people were on board. 

The fact remains that he did everything better than Trudeau did, and earlier. 
 

We only had 1,600 deaths here so far, if Trudeau had just copied Trump we’d probably have 1/4 of that. 

Trudeau followed the WHO's orders, which seem tailor-made to spread virus. Dispute that if you can.

[Boges]

26 minutes ago, WestCanMan said:

The fact remains that he did everything better than Trudeau did, and earlier. 
We only had 1,600 deaths here so far, if Trudeau had just copied Trump we’d probably have 1/4 of that. 

Trudeau followed the WHO's orders, which seem tailor-made to spread virus. Dispute that if you can.

What Trudeau didn't do was downplay the virus at Rallies and to the media and fight with Provincial leaders about who gets what in regards to PPE and support. 

He also hasn't hocked potential treatments that ended up being bunk.

https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/coronavirus/health-canada-issues-warning-against-use-of-hydroxychloroquine-for-covid-19-1.4912649

Edited April 27, 2020 by Boges

[dialamah]

12 minutes ago, WestCanMan said:

Utter stupidity.

You are praising the guy who followed the WHO's orders, which directly aided the spread of the virus, and making stupid, ineffectual criticisms of the person who took the correct actions to prevent a pandemic.

 

The only "utter stupidity" here is coming from the guy who claims the country that has the most cases and most deaths in the entire world, in total and per million, is an example to follow.  

[WestCanMan]

11 minutes ago, Boges said:

What Trudeau didn't do was downplay the virus at Rallies and to the media and fight with Provincial leaders about who gets what in regards to PPE and support. 

He also hasn't hocked potential treatments that ended up being bunk.

On the exact day that Trump took direct action against covid, Trudeau said https://montreal.ctvnews.ca/trudeau-says-coronavirus-threat-remains-low-in-canada-1.4792036

Then Trudeau said that banning travel was racist, and he said again on march 5th that banning travel was wrong, and again on March 13th there's a video of Trudeau saying that banning travel was wrong. I have links if you need them.

MSM backed up the fallacy that banning travel was the wrong thing to do during a pandemic. I'm not fucking kidding: https://globalnews.ca/news/6549566/covid-19-travel-restrictions-racism-scholars/

Communist China praised Trudeau, our MSM acted like that was a glowing endorsement. https://www.ctvnews.ca/world/china-praises-canada-slams-u-s-over-coronavirus-response-1.4795270

Trudeau DID downplay the virus, liar.

Trudeau did fail to take the MOST BASIC PRECAUTION KNOWN TO MAN FOR CENTURIES to prevent the outbreak.

Trudeau followed the WHO's guidelines, each and every one of them aided in spreading the virus.

But don't let ALL OF THE FACTS get in the way of your argument Boges.

Are you a civilian or a programmer? No one is stupid enough to actually believe what you are saying. 

[WestCanMan]

18 minutes ago, dialamah said:

The only "utter stupidity" here is coming from the guy who claims the country that has the most cases and most deaths in the entire world, in total and per million, is an example to follow.  

We have nothing to compare to NYC. The population of BC rides their subway system every day, and BC has our 3rd largest city, and it has the 3rd largest population of any province. Our 3rd largest city rides their subway every day, along with all of the other largest cities in BC. 

You're taking a misleading stat and making it the central focus of your defence of Trudeau. That makes you a propagandist.

We don't need stats. We have actions to take into account.

Trump grabbed a fire extinguisher and pointed it the base of the flames.

Trudeau said from Jan 31 - March 16th that things like "the fire won't really get here", fire extinguishers are racist, we will never use them" and "we're using a fire extinguisher now".

You're talking about how large the flames got. That's entirely STUPID. 

[Argus]

33 minutes ago, WestCanMan said:

We only had 1,600 deaths here so far, if Trudeau had just copied Trump we’d probably have 1/4 of that.

US deaths - 55,879 

Can Deaths - 2,560 

US is 8.73 times Canada's population

US deaths are 21.82 times Canada

Your statement makes no sense.

[Boges]

3 minutes ago, WestCanMan said:

We have nothing to compare to NYC. The population of BC rides their subway system every day, and BC has our 3rd largest city, and it has the 3rd largest population of any province. Our 3rd largest city rides their subway every day, along with all of the other largest cities in BC. 

You're taking a misleading stat and making it the central focus of your defence of Trudeau. That makes you a propagandist.

We don't need stats. We have actions to take into account.

Trump grabbed a fire extinguisher and pointed it the base of the flames.

Trudeau said from Jan 31 - March 16th that things like "the fire won't really get here", fire extinguishers are racist, we will never use them" and "we're using a fire extinguisher now".

You're talking about how large the flames got. That's entirely STUPID. 

Talking about Lying. 

You assume that New York's population density means that Canada's relatively low are statistically misleading. 

Edited April 27, 2020 by Boges