The Coronavirus

[dialamah]

 

It seems I missed or forgot a rule about cartoons in threads, so CA slapped my wrists (figuratively speaking).  I apologize to all for "littering" and have removed the cartoon to its proper place.

Edited July 28, 2020 by dialamah

[OftenWrong]

Data from April 25-
 

Quote

CBC News estimates that close to 100,000 patients across Canada have had their surgical procedures delayed due to COVID-19. 

Link

Quote

After waiting for almost a year, Beattie, who lives in Erinsville, Ont., finally got a call saying she was scheduled for a cardiac ablation, a procedure to fix her arrhythmia, at the nearby Kingston General Hospital at the end of March. 

But within days, it was cancelled as hospitals stopped all but the most urgent surgeries to free up resources for an anticipated influx of COVID-19 cases.

Meanwhile, her husband, Jim Beattie, 64, had suffered a heart attack in February and got his triple bypass surgery days before the restrictions came into place in March.  

"It was just in under the line," he said.

It's likely that the number of backlogged surgeries is even higher now.

Note this information is for delayed surgeries only.

Mathematically, if 10% of these people die because they did not receive treatment, it exceeds deaths by coronavirus in Canada. Even if that number is an exaggeration, it shows that the shutdown of all things because of the virus is not a good solution as it brings its own version of death.

What makes it more palatable in a way is that these deaths would be hidden, as they are stochastic in nature.

[Boges]

3 hours ago, OftenWrong said:

Mathematically, if 10% of these people die because they did not receive treatment, it exceeds deaths by coronavirus in Canada. Even if that number is an exaggeration, it shows that the shutdown of all things because of the virus is not a good solution as it brings its own version of death.

What makes it more palatable in a way is that these deaths would be hidden, as they are stochastic in nature.

Of course this is faulty logic because it doesn't consider what the COVID-19 casualties would be had no mitigation taken place. 

[Shady]

46 minutes ago, Boges said:

Of course this is faulty logic because it doesn't consider what the COVID-19 casualties would be had no mitigation taken place. 

This is even more faulty logic, because you can still have mitigation in place as well as having more services available in hospitals.

[Boges]

Note. Member OftenWrong's article is from April. 

I would be shocked if any serious surgeries are still being postponed. I've been able to access healthcare as I always have. 

There is still no actual figures on collateral deaths from COVID-19 Shutdowns. 

[OftenWrong]

Perhaps member Boges can provide a link to his assertions. Let us know if you are shocked or not; it’s important.

Member Bogus seems confident that the Canadian health care system can do an astounding recovery when it was already dysfunctional and terribly slow before the virus. 

Would certainly be impressive if they can pull it off... 100,000 surgeries backlog even if they stared in April, which they didnt.

[OftenWrong]

1 hour ago, Boges said:

Of course this is faulty logic because it doesn't consider what the COVID-19 casualties would be had no mitigation taken place. 

There is nothing faulty with the logic, not at all. It is only a question of the magnitude of these problems.

[Boges]

1 minute ago, OftenWrong said:

There is nothing faulty with the logic, not at all. It is only a question of the magnitude of these problems.

And you have no concrete evidence that any significant life was lost due to a surgery being delayed. Sure some people may have experience serious discomfort, but AFIK emergency procedures didn't stop. 

Edited July 27, 2020 by Boges

[dialamah]

In BC, about half of the surgeries cancelled due to Covid have already been done.  Not bad progress in only a month and a half.

"Dix and former Fraser Health CEO Michael Marchbank gave their first major update on the surgery backlog July 21, reporting that more than half of the people who have been offered procedures cancelled during May and June have had their surgeries completed.

People are spending more time on waiting lists than last year, but accelerated schedules and training additional operating room staff are making a difference, Dix said. Priority is being given to people who have waited for more than twice the target wait time for their procedure."

[Infidel Dog]

So it's looking like the vaccine is close:

Quote

The biggest test yet of an experimental COVID-19 vaccine got underway Monday with the first of some 30,000 Americans rolling up their sleeves to receive shots created by the U.S. government as part of the all-out global race to stop the outbreak.

https://apnews.com/33c57aa5d44d5cec2842964345fa16b1

Too bad we can't do polls here. I'd like to know how many will be lining up early. 

Think I'll wait until a few hundred million guinea pigs try it first.

Edited July 27, 2020 by Infidel Dog

[OftenWrong]

9 hours ago, Boges said:

Of course this is faulty logic because it doesn't consider what the COVID-19 casualties would be had no mitigation taken place. 

It doesn't have to consider that to be the truth and sensible. People have been calling for a solution to the dilemma of the shutdown for months.

Now that you've drawn the distinction, it's about these deaths or the other deaths.

Which deaths are better, these deaths o the other ones? And who among us gets to make that kind of decision?

[OftenWrong]

7 hours ago, Boges said:

And you have no concrete evidence that any significant life was lost due to a surgery being delayed.

Stop the nonsense. I provide quotes by medical experts on all assertions I make here. You have no evidence. go find something real that says the contrary.

THese are the reports from heart surgeons, cancer surgeons (I posted that a few weeks back)

From you we get just your fear filled personal opinion. You have no evidence yourself, yet baselessly accuse me. You have nothing.

[OftenWrong]

Quote

While those procedures are now resuming, some warn it could take months, or even several years, to clear the backlog ranging from cataract to cancer surgeries.

"People are waiting in pain, people are waiting in uncertainty," said Natalie Mehra, executive director of the Ontario Health Coalition, a public health-care advocacy group.

"Some people's health declines while they're waiting."

 

Quote

According to Western University researcher Janet Martin, many Canadians could be waiting far longer than that, given the high number of postponed procedures.

"It would take a long time — years — to catch up on that backlog," she warned.

Early on in the pandemic, Martin worked with the global CovidSurg Collaborative research team to figure out the long-term impact of the pandemic on surgeries. The team estimated that more than 28 million elective surgeries worldwide could be cancelled or postponed in 2020, based on a 12-week period of peak disruption to hospital services due to COVID-19 — including potentially hundreds of thousands of procedures in Canada.

Ontario hospitals strive to clear surgery backlog as patients remain in limbo due to COVID-19

 

Read and weep, maggots.

 

[OftenWrong]

Here is plenty more to feed you.

“I can see pain and suffering increasing and I can see increases in mortality," warns top Thunder Bay medical official.
 

Warning of premature cancer deaths over postponement of screening services
July 17 - "There is a serious risk that delays and backlogs could lead to avoidable deaths”

Coronavirus: 'Catastrophic' drop in NHS services is harming patients, doctors warn
July 12 - "Patients are being neglected and their illnesses worsening after a catastrophic drop in surgeries and appointments due to the coronavirus pandemic."

High priority surgeries and procedures ramping up to reduce backlog

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They began the resumption of high priority services on Monday, starting with 25 per cent capacity, which will gradually increase over the coming months.

The imaging department will resume at 50 per cent capacity while the blood labs begin operating by appointment only at Kincardine and Walkerton hospitals to ensure proper physical distancing.

They're also eliminating all of their COVID respiratory designated sites. The next phases will be done depending on future outbreaks.

Closing down the Covid-wards that hardly anybody used. Now get in line for your bypass operation. See you in about 4 years.

 

[Boges]

11 hours ago, OftenWrong said:

Stop the nonsense. I provide quotes by medical experts on all assertions I make here. You have no evidence. go find something real that says the contrary.

THese are the reports from heart surgeons, cancer surgeons (I posted that a few weeks back)

From you we get just your fear filled personal opinion. You have no evidence yourself, yet baselessly accuse me. You have nothing.

The Article you quoted is from April. 

Do you have statistics and not anecdotal reporting? 

I have statistics from places where COVID-19 did get a foothold and death rates were very high, so were hospitalizations. These lockdowns were meant to prevent that. 

Edited July 28, 2020 by Boges

[OftenWrong]

11 minutes ago, Boges said:

The Article you quoted is from April. 

Do you have statistics and not anecdotal reporting?

Below is from my post. This post was never edited.

On 7/27/2020 at 8:14 AM, OftenWrong said:

Data from April 25-

Congrats for pointing out that which I pointed out in the very opening of my post. My discussion stems from the facts as they were at that point in time.

Since we have only just moved out of the shutdown through a series of transition periods, and since this is not over, those backlogs very certainly exist. In fact they have grown since April 25, my point. You have missed this. Work on observation and critical thinking, less voluminous blabbing.

Quote

These lockdowns were meant to prevent that. 

No they are not meant to prevent. The shutdown was meant to bend the curve. Whether they accomplished it is debateable.

Whether the curve should even be bent at all is also debatable, since it extends the curve. If a virus dos not die out during the warm season, it will resurge.

We should let the virus burn itself out now, immediately. If not, it will be another emergency.

Much there for small minds to ponder, I know. ANy questions, get back to me.

[Boges]

6 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

Since we have only just moved out of the shutdown through a series of transition periods, and since this is not over, those backlogs very certainly exist. In fact they have grown since April 25, my point. You have missed this. Work on observation and critical thinking, less voluminous blabbing.

Yet you're not citing sources from our current level of "crisis". Can you not access healthcare in this climate? I certainly can. 

 

Quote

 

No they are not meant to prevent. The shutdown was meant to bend the curve. Whether they accomplished it is debateable.

Whether the curve should even be bent at all is also debatable, since it extends the curve. If a virus dos not die out during the warm season, it will resurge.

We should let the virus burn itself out now, immediately. If not, it will be another emergency.

Much there for small minds to ponder, I know. ANy questions, get back to me.

 

Well hospitalization is very low right now, it was a success. But we aren't re-opening without good medical advise. Something the US failed to do. 

We can see from the US and Latin America that the virus is most certainly isn't "burning" itself out. And some of the hottest places in the world are experiencing serious COVID-19 outbreaks. In those places that didn't re-open responsibly, the virus has increased. 

It's less about heat, and more about time spent indoors with other people. When you live in Qatar, Brazil, Florida or Arizona. It's so hot outside, it might as well be -20 outside in January. 

Which is why the fall is when virus's come back. Because everyone is inside all the time. In schools particularly. 

Edited July 28, 2020 by Boges

[Boges]

I saw this on my Facebook feed. 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/isabeltogoh/2020/07/28/facebook-takes-down-viral-video-making-false-claim-that-hydroxychloroquine-cures-covid/#368d4e45531d

Quote

 Facebook has taken down a video posted by right-wing news site Breitbart and retweeted by President Trump, showing a doctor vehemently making false claims that antimalarial drug hydroxychloroquine is a “cure for Covid” that allegedly racked up 17 million views before being removed.

You can tell someone is deep in the conspiracy theory rabbit hole when the start talking about 5G and HDQ. 

[dialamah]

Researchers find that mask wearing does not reduce other mitigating behavior.

The study essentially shows that people who wear masks do not feel a "false sense of security" and stop doing other things, like physical distancing.  

"The theory of cognitive dissonance suggests when a person has two or more contradictory beliefs or values, it can cause psychological distress.

Furness said that means if people are doing one thing that they deem to be important — like wearing a mask or practicing physical distancing — they will likely do other “congruent” things.

“If you’re washing your hands, because you’ve got the right attitude and you’re wearing a mask because you’ve just got the right attitude, then those other behaviours will be concordant,” Furness explained."

This also implies that people not wearing masks will do other congruent things, such as wash their hands less and let themselves get physically closer to other people.  

[Cannucklehead]

6 minutes ago, dialamah said:

Researchers find that mask wearing does not reduce other mitigating behavior.

  

 

Not sure who they are researching on, but I've seen first hand people with masks on that were not 6 feet apart from each other. 

 

Happens all the time at the cash registers.   

[dialamah]

5 minutes ago, Cannucklehead said:

Not sure who they are researching on, but I've seen first hand people with masks on that were not 6 feet apart from each other. 

Happens all the time at the cash registers.   

No doubt I can find pics showing maskless people on top of each other.  Still, a bunch of masked people bunched up is safer than unmasked people bunched up.

Where I shop, the stores are pretty good about keeping people in cashier line-ups six feet apart. 

Not that it means much, but my personal experience has been that maskless people are less careful about keeping distance (can't say about hand washing of course), and about 80% of people in my area do not wear masks.  I understand why Henry and most stores do not make masks mandatory, but they may eventually have to in order to avoid another shut down. 

Its weird to me that 84% of people support mandatory masking, yet so few will voluntarily wear them.

Its a shame the right made a publuc health measure political.

[Cannucklehead]

19 minutes ago, dialamah said:

 

 

 

I dont see what the big deal is.  As they say in the video, medical staff have to wear one 8 hours a day.  Nothing new about it. 

Those other people cannot wear one for 10-20 minutes?  And who goes shopping everyday?  I'd bet they go once or twice a week at most.  

 

Crybabies.  

Edited July 28, 2020 by Cannucklehead

[OftenWrong]

15 hours ago, Boges said:

Yet you're not citing sources from our current level of "crisis". Can you not access healthcare in this climate? I certainly can.

Of course I am man, some of those link I posted yesterday are dated June and July. Read, or don't bother me.

[OftenWrong]

All of you who follow blindly, without thinking or questioning are due for a rude wakeup. You people are naive. You think the world stops at the end of your noses.

Coronavirus leads to mass hunger, killing 10,000 children a month, UN warns

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UNICEF: ‘The repercussions of the pandemic are causing more harm to children than the disease’

 

UNICEF: An additional 6.7 million children under 5 could suffer from wasting this year due to COVID-19

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The Lancet analysis finds that the prevalence of wasting among children under the age of five could increase by 14.3 per cent in low- and middle-income countries this year, due to the socio-economic impacts of COVID-19. Such an increase in child malnutrition would translate into over 10,000 additional child deaths per month with over 50 per cent of these deaths in sub-Saharan Africa.

 

"Oh, the lockdown is a good thing. Look, it flattened the curve." -

"As long as the hospital wards and not overburdened, we're alright."

[Boges]

7 hours ago, OftenWrong said:

Of course I am man, some of those link I posted yesterday are dated June and July. Read, or don't bother me.

You cited a British article, an Irish article and a Canadian article from May (before many re-opening steps had started). 

COVID-19 hospitalization is now very low. Any delay from the Spring was necessary, because the lockdown was necessary.