Panic, Ignorance, Shut Up Already

eyeball · March 22, 2020

2 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

We didn’t have the infrastructure or the will to take S. Korean measures and their approach hasn’t stopped the virus or restarted their economy.

That said S Korea has excelled at containing the virus compared to us. Their measures and approach has been to build one of the most surveilled societies on the planet. I'm quite certain our governments have will to track and surveil the public to the extent S Korea does but there is a good reason why S Korea's government is able to do this whereas our's can't - people there have learned to trust their government because their government has learned to trust the governed. S Korea's government makes the tracking information it gathers available to the public. I'm sure S Korea's government still has its issues with accountability but clearly they've learned how to deal with that by building and and cultivating public trust. In our society the governed and their governments eye each other with almost as much suspicion as political ideologues.

I'm sure we could catch up to S Korea and even surpass them by increasing public monitoring of our governments. As usual I'll conclude by saying we should start down this road by outlawing in-camera lobbying. Perhaps by the time the next novel virus outbreak/pandemic we'd be better positioned too.

http://theconversation.com/coronavirus-south-koreas-success-in-controlling-disease-is-due-to-its-acceptance-of-surveillance-134068

Edited March 22, 2020 by eyeball

OftenWrong · March 22, 2020

1 hour ago, cannuck said:

As I just showed you, it can be WORSE than nothing from an aspiration risk perspective. Better than nothing for expirational risk and reminder to not touch. In other words, could be worse for you and better for others. Best option: stay isolated.

It sounds like you know what you are talking about. Indeed, I remember such training back in the day when we had to get fit-tested in case of another SARS outbreak.

Army Guy · March 22, 2020

1 hour ago, OftenWrong said:

Well I'm no expert, but I do recall from some training that the virus is smaller than the hole size in the mask, so in order to be effective it has to be a certain quality of mask.

But you never know, and it doesn't hurt to wear one. Especially if a person has a precondition such as asthma, they should take every precaution. Many people are not wearing masks though, and it's either because they don't have any, or feel they don't need it and just aren't worried about the virus. Not even worried if they get it.

Went into the town this morning and among the many spectacles was a front lawn with a tub full of young people sitting in it. There was about 12 guys and girls age 20 or so, sitting in an inflatable pool and having a few drinks in the morning sun. People waved to them as they went by. No masks on any of them. Interesting. Social urges trump social distancing.

Watching the news this morning, and CBC quoted there are over 300,000 Canadians around the globe still on march break vacations. despite the government telling everyone it's not a good idea to travel, telling Canadians already on vacation to make their way home asap, that was 2 weeks ago, they also notified everyone that the borders are shutting down...and still these people went about their lives like nothing is happening....and now they are crying to our government to get them home.

Justin said that there is up to 2 million Canadians abroad at any one time, be it for work, travel, or just living abroad and have a Canadian passport of convince like we seen in the Lebanon crises. Justin has already told these people that they are launching operations to retrieve as many as they can he estimates only 100,000 will be able to be brought back... he warns everyone abroad that they will not be able to get everyone back...

But this is not limited to march breakers, large amount of people have been seen at beach's , parks not practicing social distancing, nor wear masks, treating this time away from work as a vacation, nothing more....a lot of Canadians are just not taking this crises serious enough....

Rue · March 22, 2020

42 minutes ago, eyeball said:

That said S Korea has excelled at containing the virus compared to us. Their measures and approach has been to build one of the most surveilled societies on the planet. I'm quite certain our governments have will to track and surveil the public to the extent S Korea does but there is a good reason why S Korea's government is able to do this whereas our's can't - people there have learned to trust their government because their government has learned to trust the governed. S Korea's government makes the tracking information it gathers available to the public. I'm sure S Korea's government still has its issues with accountability but clearly they've learned how to deal with that by building and and cultivating public trust. In our society the governed and their governments eye each other with almost as much suspicion as political ideologues.

I'm sure we could catch up to S Korea and even surpass them by increasing public monitoring of our governments. As usual I'll conclude by saying we should start down this road by outlawing in-camera lobbying. Perhaps by the time the next novel virus outbreak/pandemic we'd be better positioned too.

http://theconversation.com/coronavirus-south-koreas-success-in-controlling-disease-is-due-to-its-acceptance-of-surveillance-134068

You see no down side to this? Sky's approach to it's economy makes more sense for the reasons Y said and you but I do not share your trust in government surveillance to be honest with you.

Edited March 22, 2020 by Rue

Rue · March 22, 2020

1 hour ago, betsy said:

There's the keyword there. Look at the students celebrating March break on a beach! Didn't we all feel invincible at a certain age?

Mind you....it's their parents or, most likely their grandparents, or anyone with underlying conditions who are vulnerable. Maybe, a lot of young ones can afford to celebrate and disregard the warning (as long as they don't carry them back to their vulnerable kins).

The irony is those kids also spread sexually transmitted diseases as well which can be dangerous to immunity defficient people. Like you said we all felt immortal at their age.

Edited March 22, 2020 by Rue

betsy · March 22, 2020

What coronavirus? College students flood Myrtle Beach to party as COVID-19 spreads

https://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/coronavirus/article241350261.html

How many supposedly mature adults have been behaving like teens?

Edited March 22, 2020 by betsy

betsy · March 22, 2020

3 minutes ago, Rue said:

The irony is those kids also spread sexually transmitted diseases as well which can be dangerous to immunity defficient people. Like you said we all felt immortal at their age.

Not necessarily limited to young kids anymore.....how many I wonder, have self-quarantined themselves when they were advised to?

Rue · March 22, 2020

I had to go the the corner Tim Horton's and talk to the weekend shift students who I know. They are all worried. I deliberately show up, reassure them then go home with a coffee. I just hate the unintended spread of fear. My gut says reassure people not show fear.

I agree with Often W, Arm E. and Y on this issue

I think South Korea and Taiwan and Singapore will be models we switch too soon, as O mentioned quick. You just can not shut down an economy past a certain point without causing more damage than the virus itself.

People need spiritual support based on hope not fear. These viruses are a natural part of life and our crazy world has detached us from the rules of nature or the messages you see in the Bible.

We are part of a world people fear if they think they can not control it with laws, regulations, surveillance, masks, military, police, arresting people, etc.

South Korea did not do what we do in Canada because it has too many people to try lock them all up.

Hey your saviour surecas hell did not hide from lepers. His entire message was of healing the sick with basic hygiene and positive reinforcement.

It is why I hate that message being turned into threats to obey or die.

That is what I meant earlier to you.

Ironically Leviticus was a health code not a threat of punishment. It warned about how to handle meat long ago.

This is..is it not... about basic hygiene and preparation of food.

In my world the saviour is the potential in any human to heal the world by starting with our own behaviour with hygiene not panicking.

I did not mean to sound rude before to you.

Edited March 22, 2020 by Rue

Zeitgeist · March 22, 2020

1 hour ago, eyeball said:

That said S Korea has excelled at containing the virus compared to us. Their measures and approach has been to build one of the most surveilled societies on the planet. I'm quite certain our governments have will to track and surveil the public to the extent S Korea does but there is a good reason why S Korea's government is able to do this whereas our's can't - people there have learned to trust their government because their government has learned to trust the governed. S Korea's government makes the tracking information it gathers available to the public. I'm sure S Korea's government still has its issues with accountability but clearly they've learned how to deal with that by building and and cultivating public trust. In our society the governed and their governments eye each other with almost as much suspicion as political ideologues.

I'm sure we could catch up to S Korea and even surpass them by increasing public monitoring of our governments. As usual I'll conclude by saying we should start down this road by outlawing in-camera lobbying. Perhaps by the time the next novel virus outbreak/pandemic we'd be better positioned too.

http://theconversation.com/coronavirus-south-koreas-success-in-controlling-disease-is-due-to-its-acceptance-of-surveillance-134068

Everyone likes the S. Korean approach, but few countries have the testing capacity, medical infrastructure, and willingness to go without that that country and a few others have. They moved to strict quarantine and are still shut down.

It’s bizarre, some commentators are saying they don’t want the economy to be shut down as though it hasn’t happened yet. Look around. The economy is effectively shut down. The issue now is how to get back close to full capacity. The stock market, investment, and consumer spending are based on confidence. As long as we see a rise in cases instead of a significant drop, confidence and the public will to return to work will remain low. China now is poised for growth because they got to zero. All new cases have arrived by plane and are under quarantine. Whatever gets us to that point fastest is what we need to do. It seems draconian now. It won’t seem so harsh soon, when life and the rebound of our economy are at stake. Is current public health policy in Canada sufficient? I’m doubtful and think we need to go harder faster, but we’ll know soon. Just keep in mind that the economy isn’t up and running now due to fear of the virus.

Edited March 22, 2020 by Zeitgeist

eyeball · March 22, 2020

1 hour ago, Rue said:

You see no down side to this? Sky's approach to it's economy makes more sense for the reasons Y said and you but I do not share your trust in government surveillance to be honest with you.

Rue if you've paid attention at all you know from what I've written about fisheries management that I have no more reason to trust our government than you.

Have you ever noticed when I write about turning the Telescreens around how many people don't seem to trust giving the public the capacity to monitor their governments? Some have gone so far as to charge that my suggestions are false and that I actually want to give the government more control over us.

There is a very very strange psychology at work there.

Rue · March 22, 2020

2 minutes ago, eyeball said:

Rue if you've paid attention at all you know from what I've written about fisheries management that I have no more reason to trust our government than you.

Have you ever noticed when I write about turning the Telescreens around how many people don't seem to trust giving the public the capacity to monitor their governments? Some have gone so far as to charge that my suggestions are false and that I actually want to give the government more control over us.

There is a very very strange psychology at work there.

Thanks that is why actually I asked. I do read your stuff. Got it thanks. I myself am trying to reconcile anything government does with what we actually need it to do and not to do.

Edited March 22, 2020 by Rue

eyeball · March 22, 2020

3 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

The stock market, investment, and consumer spending are based on confidence. As long as we see a rise in cases instead of a significant drop, confidence and the public will to return to work will remain low.

I would suggest that more confidence in the veracity of our governments is the first step in rebuilding our economy.

Rue · March 22, 2020

Kind of hard when there is no reason to be.

Argus · March 22, 2020

38 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Everyone likes the S. Korean approach, but few countries have the testing capacity, medical infrastructure

Why? Testing capacity should be something which can be built rapidly. I'm not aware, though, that SK had a lot of labs sitting around doing nothing. They were doing other things and have been retasked. We can do the same.

Yes, I agree their medical infrastructure was and is better than ours. For some reason the people there don't simply shrug off things and look north to say "Well, as long as we're better than our neighbours it's all good!" like Canadians do.

38 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

and willingness to go without that that country and a few others have. They moved to strict quarantine and are still shut down.

No, they haven't. Ours is stricter. They're economy is still functioning. People are still going to work. Restaurants are still open.

Zeitgeist · March 22, 2020

30 minutes ago, Argus said:

Why? Testing capacity should be something which can be built rapidly. I'm not aware, though, that SK had a lot of labs sitting around doing nothing. They were doing other things and have been retasked. We can do the same.

Yes, I agree their medical infrastructure was and is better than ours. For some reason the people there don't simply shrug off things and look north to say "Well, as long as we're better than our neighbours it's all good!" like Canadians do.

No, they haven't. Ours is stricter. They're economy is still functioning. People are still going to work. Restaurants are still open.

Well more of their economy is up and running than ours. Their success has been in swift testing, tracking and communication of locations where exposure might have happened, and quarantining. Schools are still closed there, but yes, they are salvaging more of their economy and seeing greater declines in infections than we are. We want to be able to do what they are doing. Failing that, we only have the blunt instrument of mass and strictly followed quarantining. Maybe we can ramp up production and find that middle ground, as they do have small group workplace participation in South Korea.

“The backbone of Korea’s success has been mass, indiscriminate testing, followed by rigorous contact tracing and the quarantine of anyone the carrier has come into contact with. As of March 19, the country has conducted more than 307,000 tests, the highest per capita in the world. The UK has conducted 64,600; The US even less that. “You have countries like the US right now, where there's a fairly strict criteria of who can be tested,” says Kee Park, a lecturer on global health at Harvard Medical School. “I know people personally who have symptoms that are highly suspicious, but they don't meet all the criteria and so they're not being tested.”

Edited March 22, 2020 by Zeitgeist

Zeitgeist · March 22, 2020

Personally, and this probably an outlier opinion, I think we should go into lockdown (other than for groceries, essentials, and strict social distancing for outdoor walks or runs) for 4-6 weeks (depending on rates of infection at 4 weeks) while we ramp up production of ventilators, masks, and tests. At that point, as long as we are at or virtually at zero new cases, we should return both to work and school in smaller groups, following strict hygiene and social distancing. I’d like for everyone to where masks when buying groceries or out for essentials during that lockdown, but we can’t demand that people use what they don’t have. If from now on we test, track, and quarantine new infections South Korea style, including bringing all possible contacts of the infected for testing as much as possible, we should be able to see a return to a somewhat normal life by the end of May that would allow students to finish the school year (perhaps going into July) with some sense of genuine completion. Governments could also back off of excessive public spending as businesses pick up the slack.

Edited March 22, 2020 by Zeitgeist

eyeball · March 22, 2020

1 hour ago, Zeitgeist said:

If from now on we test, track, and quarantine new infections South Korea style, including bringing all possible contacts of the infected for testing as much as possible, we should be able to see a return to a somewhat normal life by the end of May that would allow students to finish the school year (perhaps going into July) with some sense of genuine completion.

South Koreans have 1 million CCTV cameras, the most cell phones and cell coverage per capita and their bank cards are also used by the government's geographic information systems to track everyone's whereabouts. Each person is subject to being observed and pinpointed up to 80 times a day.

We're years behind that and we have yet to build the trust between the government and the governed that would allow us to tolerate such measures. I suppose there will be some who insist we can and should just force people to comply and submit to these but....let me know how that works I guess.

In the meantime...

Quote

Governments could also back off of excessive public spending as businesses pick up the slack.

And what if businesses can't? What if this really does turn into a full blown global depression?

I live in a tsunami prone area where we have a pretty good leg up on local disaster preparedness and we have a fair bit of food producing capacity to in the form of a fishing fleet and processing/freezing plants plus the means to produce 2 - 3 mw's of power to keep it all humming. We also have the sort of fuel stores that maintaining even a smaller commercial fishing fleet requires. I've been thinking about starting a discussion where I live about mobilizing gardeners, botanists and biologists to look at drawing up plans to use local sports fields for cultivating vegetables. Local indigenous people are already out gathering fish and I've got my own smoker fired up processing what's left from the fall.

We even have a micro-brewery that makes beer from kelp hereabouts and I doubt I'm the only one with a few clones on hand so... Tourism is completely on the rocks and I can't help but recall a conversation I had a short while ago about my 45 years living here with a nouveau local that arrived just a couple years ago. I've seen large scale mining, logging and commercial fishing come and go and told him I wouldn't be surprised to see tourism follow suit. If there is any one thing that never changes around here its that when change does come it rolls over us like a proverbial tsunami. I'm so used to LMAO's and rolling eye's by now that all I could do was smile.

The seemingly more drastic approach local indigenous people have taken have raised a few eyebrows. Last week there was an information 'blockade' asking visitors to refrain from visiting and they've put up barriers on roads leading into their villages. Perhaps the communal memory of disease decimating their people is fresher than ours. I'm certainly not laughing.

Edited March 22, 2020 by eyeball

Argus · March 22, 2020

2 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

Well more of their economy is up and running than ours. Their success has been in swift testing, tracking and communication of locations where exposure might have happened, and quarantining.

If you look around the western world Canada appears to be leading just about everyone in testing. We've done 88,000 tests so far, which is way more, on a population basis, than almost any other western country. We've tested and isolated a lot more people. I would suggest this is one possible reason why we have so few cases, about 1400, compared to just about every other western nation. We have way fewer cases than even smaller states like Norway, Sweden, Switzerland and the Netherlands. Austria has 3500, Switzerland 7400. Switzerland has had 98 deaths, the Netherlands 179, Belgium 75. So our 20 deaths look pretty good.

The US, of course, is fast becoming a disaster. New York State alone has 13,000 cases, with 114 dead.

Edited March 22, 2020 by Argus

cannuck · March 23, 2020

8 hours ago, OftenWrong said:

It sounds like you know what you are talking about. Indeed, I remember such training back in the day when we had to get fit-tested in case of another SARS outbreak.

On the mask thing: makes essentially no difference at all for inhalation exposure. I looked it up this afternoon and the Wuhan Covid virus is about 100 nanometers in diameter (0.1 microns). That is 1/3 of the size of the 0.3 microns that an 95 mask will block 95% of the time. You would need ultrafiltration cartridges and a rubber sealed and tested mask to be anywhere near blocking it for inhalation. What they CAN do is catch droplets aerosolized by a cough or sneeze (and, of course the droplets carry the virus.).

I do a lot of confined space entries with hazmat conditions, and have a son-in-law who is a firefighter, so, yes, a fair bit of experience with masks. AND - after doing that kind of crap for 50 years, I am still alive.

Edited March 23, 2020 by cannuck

betsy · March 23, 2020

Quote

18 hours ago, cannuck said:

As I just showed you, it can be WORSE than nothing from an aspiration risk perspective. Better than nothing for expirational risk and reminder to not touch. In other words, could be worse for you and better for others. Best option: stay isolated.

We can't be isolated 100% - unless you're well-prepped for armageddon! Somebody has to go out to get some food. :lol:

Anyway, asymptomatic people can still pass the virus. Everyone's flying by the seats of their pants - even the CDC!

Quote

Instead of recommending that health-care workers use specialized masks known as N95 respirators, which filter out about 95% of airborne particles, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention posted new guidelines Tuesday, saying that “the supply chain of respirators cannot meet demand” and that looser fitting surgical face masks “are an acceptable alternative.”

“We are strongly opposed to any measures that fail to provide optimal protection and infection control standards,” they wrote in a letter to CDC officials Friday. The unions include National Nurses United, the American Federation of Teachers, and the Transport Workers Union of America. “Now is the time to use every possible tool available to guarantee the highest level of protection, guided by the precautionary principle, to prevent further spread of infection, protect healthcare workers, and preserve our capacity to respond to a widespread outbreak.”

The CDC guidance said the changes were prompted by the shortages. Surgical face masks will block the respiratory droplets produced by patients who cough or sneeze, which is the primary way the virus is spread.

The CDC is recommending that N95 respirators be reserved for protecting workers in the riskiest situations, where fine aerosol is likely to be generated.

During the height of flu season over the course of four years, researchers studied flu-infection rates among health-care workers at seven U.S. medical centers. Some workers were randomly assigned to wear N95 respirators and others surgical masks.

The two groups showed no significant difference in flu infection rates, according to the study, which was published in September in JAMA, the Journal of the American Medical Association.

https://www.savannahnow.com/news/20200311/face-mask-shortage-prompts-cdc-to-alter-coronavirus-guidance

From my perspective - why should we not use anything that could lessen the risk? If it's a suitable alternative for those in the front line, why not for us? It should provide adequate protection too.

I don't use a loose-fitting mask btw - I use the "cup" mask used by painters, or sanders. Worst case scenario - I'll most likely wrap a towel over it and wear a raincoat, winter coat or anything in lieu of hazmat.

Since they're so hard to come by - cup masks can't be a single-use item. As of 2 weeks ago, Rona still has lots of them (about 5 bucks for a pack of 5 are the only ones available. Boxes of 50's are gone) .....but I don't know if they still have some now.

I spray it and leave it at the garage for the next grocery day (airing out at least 6 days)!

I suppose, at the end of the day - especially, when there are no sure answers - depending on our own situation/circumstances........... we all do what we think is best for ourselves.

Edited March 23, 2020 by betsy

betsy · March 23, 2020

13 hours ago, Argus said:

The US, of course, is fast becoming a disaster. New York State alone has 13,000 cases, with 114 dead.

No surprise there in the high rate. What's the population? Pop. 19,440,469. New York is congested - I bet the rates are much higher in big cities.

Look at the rate in Ontario pop 14,446,515 - quite high rate in congested Toronto! Pop. 6,196,731

Edited March 23, 2020 by betsy

Rue · March 23, 2020

17 hours ago, eyeball said:

South Koreans have 1 million CCTV cameras, the most cell phones and cell coverage per capita and their bank cards are also used by the government's geographic information systems to track everyone's whereabouts. Each person is subject to being observed and pinpointed up to 80 times a day.

We're years behind that and we have yet to build the trust between the government and the governed that would allow us to tolerate such measures. I suppose there will be some who insist we can and should just force people to comply and submit to these but....let me know how that works I guess.

In the meantime...

And what if businesses can't? What if this really does turn into a full blown global depression?

I live in a tsunami prone area where we have a pretty good leg up on local disaster preparedness and we have a fair bit of food producing capacity to in the form of a fishing fleet and processing/freezing plants plus the means to produce 2 - 3 mw's of power to keep it all humming. We also have the sort of fuel stores that maintaining even a smaller commercial fishing fleet requires. I've been thinking about starting a discussion where I live about mobilizing gardeners, botanists and biologists to look at drawing up plans to use local sports fields for cultivating vegetables. Local indigenous people are already out gathering fish and I've got my own smoker fired up processing what's left from the fall.

We even have a micro-brewery that makes beer from kelp hereabouts and I doubt I'm the only one with a few clones on hand so... Tourism is completely on the rocks and I can't help but recall a conversation I had a short while ago about my 45 years living here with a nouveau local that arrived just a couple years ago. I've seen large scale mining, logging and commercial fishing come and go and told him I wouldn't be surprised to see tourism follow suit. If there is any one thing that never changes around here its that when change does come it rolls over us like a proverbial tsunami. I'm so used to LMAO's and rolling eye's by now that all I could do was smile.

The seemingly more drastic approach local indigenous people have taken have raised a few eyebrows. Last week there was an information 'blockade' asking visitors to refrain from visiting and they've put up barriers on roads leading into their villages. Perhaps the communal memory of disease decimating their people is fresher than ours. I'm certainly not laughing.

I do not share your faith in government as the panacea for your fears. Take out the word germs or virus and replace it with a different reference such as..Jew, leftist, immigrant, Muslim, atheist... you are using the term virus to give justification to totalitarianism.

Medical solutions ultimately require you to make decisions as an individual. No government agent can think for you bit it can prevent you from thinking.

Edited March 23, 2020 by Rue

Argus · March 23, 2020

4 hours ago, betsy said:

No surprise there in the high rate. What's the population? Pop. 19,440,469. New York is congested - I bet the rates are much higher in big cities.

Look at the rate in Ontario pop 14,446,515 - quite high rate in congested Toronto! Pop. 6,196,731

Ontario's population is a quarter less than New York's and it has 450 cases to New York's 15,000

Rue · March 23, 2020

15 hours ago, cannuck said:

On the mask thing: makes essentially no difference at all for inhalation exposure. I looked it up this afternoon and the Wuhan Covid virus is about 100 nanometers in diameter (0.1 microns). That is 1/3 of the size of the 0.3 microns that an 95 mask will block 95% of the time. You would need ultrafiltration cartridges and a rubber sealed and tested mask to be anywhere near blocking it for inhalation. What they CAN do is catch droplets aerosolized by a cough or sneeze (and, of course the droplets carry the virus.).

I do a lot of confined space entries with hazmat conditions, and have a son-in-law who is a firefighter, so, yes, a fair bit of experience with masks. AND - after doing that kind of crap for 50 years, I am still alive.

Ran out of likes. Strong like.

betsy · March 23, 2020

On 3/22/2020 at 1:23 PM, Army Guy said:

Watching the news this morning, and CBC quoted there are over 300,000 Canadians around the globe still on march break vacations. despite the government telling everyone it's not a good idea to travel, telling Canadians already on vacation to make their way home asap, that was 2 weeks ago, they also notified everyone that the borders are shutting down...and still these people went about their lives like nothing is happening....and now they are crying to our government to get them home.

Justin said that there is up to 2 million Canadians abroad at any one time, be it for work, travel, or just living abroad and have a Canadian passport of convince like we seen in the Lebanon crises. Justin has already told these people that they are launching operations to retrieve as many as they can he estimates only 100,000 will be able to be brought back... he warns everyone abroad that they will not be able to get everyone back...

But this is not limited to march breakers, large amount of people have been seen at beach's , parks not practicing social distancing, nor wear masks, treating this time away from work as a vacation, nothing more....a lot of Canadians are just not taking this crises serious enough....

Did you hear about the returning snow birds? Ford was talking about this today. They go straight to grocery stores instead of self-isolation!

Edited March 23, 2020 by betsy