Immigrants cost Canada $30 billion per year

[dialamah]

6 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

But Canada has already done this...far longer....with First Nations history.   So when will you gladly support their "tunnels and rockets" ?   Ditto Canadian mining companies abroad.    Why single out the "Americans" for an example when one is readily available right at home..for real ?

Wow, so stupid to miss the point of my post.

Edited September 8, 2019 by dialamah

[bush_cheney2004]

8 minutes ago, dialamah said:

Wow, so stupid to miss the point of my post.

 

No worries....I was making a very different point...so stupid not to understand it.

Now...back to immigrants loving Canada anyway.

[Dougie93]

25 minutes ago, dialamah said:

.  I, personally, would gladly support a Canadian Hamas to build tunnels and fire rockets.  

That would be a foolish thing to support

With no military solution against the US military you'd simply be getting people killed to no good purpose

While at the time condemning them to be fugitives from international law and the laws of armed conflict.

Revanchism is self destructive, once you have been defeated on the battlefield, perpetuating the conflict by war amongst the people simply compounds the misery without resolution.

[Rue]

Again the problem with this thread or ANY discussion on immigration is the intent of the discussion. If the intent is to express concern that immigration policy should promote recruiting qualified immigrants coming to Canada to help build this country and make it better, I get it. That is far debate. There are far too many loopholes making it easy for people to break the existing immigration laws and  push in front of well qualified immigrants who have bust their butt to prepare to be qualified and line up to get in and go through the process to become permanent residences and then citizens.

However, when the topic then turns into a blanket generalization about ANY immigrants coming that is where I say enough stop it. If you do not want anyone at all, say so. I have said it publically, I openly challenge Taxme as a neo Nazi white supremacist on this forum and his trying to couch it with ambiguous references to simply worrying about "whites"  fools no one....but at least on this topic, he is open and blatant about his agenda which is more then I can say for some who should just put it out in the open they do not want ANY immigrants like Taxme.

I argue again, Canada economically needs qualified immigrants to fill gaps and help build the economy and pay into the tax pools needed to run our governments.

The idea this nation can survive without constantly upgrading its economic classes of workers is idiotic in this day of age with specialized job functions.

That said what the hell does that have to do with Hamas, a Muslim extremist terrorist group and/or tunnels?

Hello over here. The claim immigrants cost money was the thread topic. Yoo hoo over here.

My response was qualified immigrants do not, they add to the wealth of the country. Certain unqualified ones yes may be causing a drain. Then again why stop at immigrants. How many Canadian citizens  are a drain and cost the government money and who decides that?  Is it ok to drain Canada and be unproductive as long as you were born in Canada? What logic is that?

Me, I am loath to point a finger at anyone and accuse them of being a drain unless I have all the facts and event then I do not know about you but I find people who point the finger at others for lacking things usually are not perfect so excuse me if I  just identify with hard working people who are tolerant of others and when I criticize immigration policies its not because I am against anyone. I think Sheer is trying his hardest to say that but the Liberals are intent in throwing back any discussion as to the concern of immigration policy as racist and this in turn may backfire on Liberals not pander to get them votes as they think its going to do.

Time will tell whether the very immigrants Trudeau thinks he is pandering to with his policies consider what he is doing patronizing and belittling to how hard they worked to ger here and vote against him, or simply pat him on the back.

That is an interesting sub-text to the current immigration debate.

[Argus]

34 minutes ago, Rue said:

I argue again, Canada economically needs qualified immigrants to fill gaps and help build the economy and pay into the tax pools needed to run our governments.

There's no evidence to support your opinion. And as immigrants in general earn less than Canadians they tend to be net losses as far as paying into the tax pools go. Ie, the government spends more on them than they pay in taxes. And you fill gaps in labour by education. As it stands now 65% of recent software engineers left Canada due to low wages caused by tech companies importing masses of third world tech workers.

https://www.fraserinstitute.org/sites/default/files/EffectsofMassImmigration.pdf

34 minutes ago, Rue said:

The idea this nation can survive without constantly upgrading its economic classes of workers is idiotic in this day of age with specialized job functions.

Here, this guy used to run our immigration system. He probably knows more about the subject than you.

There is no evidence that immigration is essential for economic growth. The 1985 MacDonald Royal Commission Report concluded that immigration did not contribute to economic growth and, in fact, caused a decline in per capita income and real wages. In 1989, a two-year study by the Department of Health and Welfare supported the MacDonald report and stated there was no argument for increased population growth and that immigration was not the answer to the aging of the population. In 1991, the Economic Council of Canada reached the same conclusion.

A more recent study by Prof. Herbert Grubel of Simon Fraser University and economist Patrick Grady found that in the year 2002 alone, the costs in services and benefits received by the 2.5 million immigrants between 1990 and 2002 exceeded the taxes paid by these immigrants by $23 billion. It is not surprising that this study has received little media coverage in Canada.

Studies outside of Canada have come to the same conclusion about the economic value of immigration. In Britain, a report by the House of Lords in 2008 warned that the government’s plan to admit 190,000 immigrants per year would achieve little benefit and would seriously affect the availability of housing and the quality of public services. The report also criticized the government for misleading the people by justifying immigration levels when they provided no economic benefit, were not needed to fill labour shortages and did not help the state’s pension fund.

https://ottawacitizen.com/opinion/columnists/bissett-immigration-policy-is-out-of-control-and-needs-an-overhaul

 

[scribblet]

1 hour ago, Rue said:

Again the problem with this thread or ANY discussion on immigration is the intent of the discussion. If the intent is to express concern that immigration policy should promote recruiting qualified immigrants coming to Canada to help build this country and make it better, I get it. That is far debate. There are far too many loopholes making it easy for people to break the existing immigration laws and  push in front of well qualified immigrants who have bust their butt to prepare to be qualified and line up to get in and go through the process to become permanent residences and then citizens.....

The talk about rockets etc. came from a response to my post about Canada/U.S. agreeing to take in thousands of Palestinians which naturally evoked the usual 'it's Israel's fault' or some such thing cos you know, it's just the odd rocket.

However, I do agree we need an some immigration based on skills, merit and Canada's economic needs, I disagree with the Liberal plan to raise immigration to over a million in 3 years as I don't believe we have the financial means to absorb that many in that space of time)        Generally speaking new immigrants only pay about half as much in income taxes as other Canadians but absorb nearly the same value of gov't  services so end of  costing taxpayers around $6,000 per immigrant .    

We have a housing crisis now in Toronto where most immigrants go, shelters are overflowing so more people on the streets and illegal migrants are being housed in hotels.   Not to mention our health care system is a mess and IMO is broken (speaking for myself a 15 month wait to see a specialist is unacceptable but that is Ontario reality).    We just cannot afford that many more, and cannot afford the migrants crossing illegally, that needs to be stopped ASAP.  

I would like to see fewer international medical students so seats can be given to Canadian students who want to study medicine as we have a shortage of doctors.  I wouldn't object to paying for the skill and certification upgrades to immigrant doctors if they agree to practice outside of Toronto for a min. of 5 years.    I think most people are agreeable to a stable reasonable number of skilled immigrants coming in and IMO that would be around 150,000 per year.

Edited September 8, 2019 by scribblet

[Zeitgeist]

10 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

But Canada has already done this...far longer....with First Nations history.   So when will you gladly support their "tunnels and rockets" ?   Ditto Canadian mining companies abroad.    Why single out the "Americans" for an example when one is readily available right at home..for real ?

Do you think immigrants to Canada would change their mind when so informed ?

 

False comparison.  We didn’t have the removals and resettlement of Indigenous from the west as happened in the US.  We have treaties in Canada.  The disputes in Canada surround the legitimacy of the terms of the treaty:   Was the treaty violated?  Is the land under dispute on treaty lands?  Should a treaty be in place with regard to certain lands?  The challenges here arise because, for example, a developer thinks he/she has title over land, tries to develop it, and that deed is contested.  That’s Caledonia.  There is also some conflict with the federal government over interjurisdictional federal infrastructure, such as pipelines.  Canada retains that authority.  Some groups may not like that, but it actually protects everyone from excesses like band council corruption or criminal violence.  It’s not an easy situation, and make no mistake, Canada won’t reliquish that authority.   

Neverthless, the situation in Palestine is very different for a multitude of reasons.  Indigenous can live and work anywhere in Canada, have voting rights and all the rights of Canadian citizens, as well as tax exemptions, greater access to free higher education, and if from a reserve, guaranteed rights to untaxed lands.   Very different.  

Edited September 8, 2019 by Zeitgeist

[jacee]

19 hours ago, scribblet said:

The odd rocket - oh sure...  not to mention the tunnels that Israel took down some time ago, no doubt they are rebuilding.

https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20190403-hamas-weapons-are-the-focus-of-israel-and-the-regions-targets/

Well, there`s the Palestinian Authority Martyrs Fund operated by the Palestinian Authority (PA)  which pays out to the families of Palestinians killed, injured or imprisoned for involvement in attacking, assisting in attacking, or planning to attack Israelis, etc etc. 

They just stopped heavily armed Palestinians,. https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/attempt-by-heavily-armed-palestinians-from-gaza-to-enter-israel-thwarted-army-says-1.7655783

4 Salafi extremists not aligned with Hamas or Palestinian governance.

 

And Hamas spends millions on military.

 https://www.timesofisrael.com/hamas-spends-100-million-a-year-on-military-infrastructure/

Mostly on people constantly digging tunnels to acquire any weapons at all, and other necessary supplies blocked by Israel. According to your article, preparing to defend Palestinians from another attack by Israelis. People have a right to defend themselves. 

But there is no significant, weaponized threat to Israel, no significant attacks on Israel by Palestinians. 

So ... I think you've made my point: There is no threat, no attack on Israel. 

[jacee]

6 hours ago, Rue said:

My response was qualified immigrants do not, they add to the wealth of the country. Certain unqualified ones yes may be causing a drain. Then again why stop at immigrants. How many Canadian citizens  are a drain and cost the government money and who decides that?  Is it ok to drain Canada and be unproductive as long as you were born in Canada? What logic is that?

Canada's history is filled with immigrants who struggled to survive, feed and house their families on backbreaking, poorly paid labour, including farming ... so their kids can do better. We all know the stories, and mostly the second generation does do better. 

When that's our cherished 'story' as a nation, how can we then turn around and say 'We won't take any poor people'? Ridiculous.

And it's irrelevant:

'Anti-immigration' just a more socially acceptable way for white supremacism to disguise its racism and xenophobia. 

[bush_cheney2004]

5 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

False comparison.  We didn’t have the removals and resettlement of Indigenous from the west as happened in the US.  We have treaties in Canada. 

 

False....the forced "aboriginal" relocations in the north are well documented...don't pretend otherwise.    Treaties meant nothing.

You are also on record here advocating that new immigrants be admitted on conditions of undesirable (northern) locations and employment, compared to "other Canadians".

 

Quote

Neverthless, the situation in Palestine is very different for a multitude of reasons.  Indigenous can live and work anywhere in Canada, have voting rights and all the rights of Canadian citizens, as well as tax exemptions, greater access to free higher education, and if from a reserve, guaranteed rights to untaxed lands.   Very different.  

 

...but still partnered with Palestinians in their political cause to fight for land rights and against continued occupation/subjugation by The Crown. 

Not so different.

 

 

[Dougie93]

Racist Apartheid Indian Act Canada White Knighting for the Indians.  

Theater of the Absurd.

Priggish Tickets to Heaven for Progressive Papists.

[Rue]

5 hours ago, scribblet said:

The talk about rockets etc. came from a response to my post about Canada/U.S. agreeing to take in thousands of Palestinians which naturally evoked the usual 'it's Israel's fault' or some such thing cos you know, it's just the odd rocket.

However, I do agree we need an some immigration based on skills, merit and Canada's economic needs, I disagree with the Liberal plan to raise immigration to over a million in 3 years as I don't believe we have the financial means to absorb that many in that space of time)        Generally speaking new immigrants only pay about half as much in income taxes as other Canadians but absorb nearly the same value of gov't  services so end of  costing taxpayers around $6,000 per immigrant .    

We have a housing crisis now in Toronto where most immigrants go, shelters are overflowing so more people on the streets and illegal migrants are being housed in hotels.   Not to mention our health care system is a mess and IMO is broken (speaking for myself a 15 month wait to see a specialist is unacceptable but that is Ontario reality).    We just cannot afford that many more, and cannot afford the migrants crossing illegally, that needs to be stopped ASAP.  

I would like to see fewer international medical students so seats can be given to Canadian students who want to study medicine as we have a shortage of doctors.  I wouldn't object to paying for the skill and certification upgrades to immigrant doctors if they agree to practice outside of Toronto for a min. of 5 years.    I think most people are agreeable to a stable reasonable number of skilled immigrants coming in and IMO that would be around 150,000 per year.

No prob Scrib my comment didn't mean to question you..I could have been clearer....it was just meant to be rhetorical...I agreed with your pt. by the way..

Edited September 8, 2019 by Rue

[Rue]

6 hours ago, Argus said:

There's no evidence to support your opinion. And as immigrants in general earn less than Canadians they tend to be net losses as far as paying into the tax pools go. Ie, the government spends more on them than they pay in taxes. And you fill gaps in labour by education. As it stands now 65% of recent software engineers left Canada due to low wages caused by tech companies importing masses of third world tech workers.

https://www.fraserinstitute.org/sites/default/files/EffectsofMassImmigration.pdf

Here, this guy used to run our immigration system. He probably knows more about the subject than you.

There is no evidence that immigration is essential for economic growth. The 1985 MacDonald Royal Commission Report concluded that immigration did not contribute to economic growth and, in fact, caused a decline in per capita income and real wages. In 1989, a two-year study by the Department of Health and Welfare supported the MacDonald report and stated there was no argument for increased population growth and that immigration was not the answer to the aging of the population. In 1991, the Economic Council of Canada reached the same conclusion.

A more recent study by Prof. Herbert Grubel of Simon Fraser University and economist Patrick Grady found that in the year 2002 alone, the costs in services and benefits received by the 2.5 million immigrants between 1990 and 2002 exceeded the taxes paid by these immigrants by $23 billion. It is not surprising that this study has received little media coverage in Canada.

Studies outside of Canada have come to the same conclusion about the economic value of immigration. In Britain, a report by the House of Lords in 2008 warned that the government’s plan to admit 190,000 immigrants per year would achieve little benefit and would seriously affect the availability of housing and the quality of public services. The report also criticized the government for misleading the people by justifying immigration levels when they provided no economic benefit, were not needed to fill labour shortages and did not help the state’s pension fund.

https://ottawacitizen.com/opinion/columnists/bissett-immigration-policy-is-out-of-control-and-needs-an-overhaul

 

The studies you quote were repudiated long ago. 

[scribblet]

1 hour ago, jacee said:

So ... I think you've made my point: There is no threat, no attack on Israel. 

Hardly, but I'll let this just sit here because...   I don't think I've every seen that complete denial before.   oh yea what does Hamas manifesto say

On the Destruction of Israel:
-----------------------------

'Israel will exist and  will  continue  to  exist  until  Islam  will

obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it.' (Preamble)

[Zeitgeist]

1 hour ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

False....the forced "aboriginal" relocations in the north are well documented...don't pretend otherwise.    Treaties meant nothing.

You are also on record here advocating that new immigrants be admitted on conditions of undesirable (northern) locations and employment, compared to "other Canadians".

 

 

...but still partnered with Palestinians in their political cause to fight for land rights and against continued occupation/subjugation by The Crown. 

Not so different.

 

 

Very different.  I’m on record for advocating a new immigration category that allows people to become full citizens (no different from any other citizens) after having completed a residential requirement.   Such a candidate chooses to meet this requirement to obtain citizenship.  He/she doesn’t have to apply. This is not two- tier citizenship because the candidate isn’t a citizen until criteria are met.  We have seasonal workers, student visas, work permits, a variety of categories of people living and working in Canada who aren’t citizens, as in the US.  

In terms of Canada’s treatment of Indigenous.   It’s no better in the US, but to compare either situation with Israel/Palestine is inaccurate and irresponsible. 

The problem in Palestine is that these “citizens” are essentially trapped within a narrow strip of land , the access to which is controlled by Israel.  All water and resources are also controlled by Israel.  Basically it’s 2nd class citizenship in a restricted area as in South Africa 30 years ago.

From Wikipedia:

“Israel enforces restrictions on the freedom of movement of Palestinians in the West Bank by employing a system of permanent, temporary and random manned checkpoints, the West Bank Barrierand by forbidding the usage of roads by Palestinians.^[5] A 2007 World Bank report concluded that the West Bank "is experiencing severe and expanding restrictions on movement and access, high levels of unpredictability and a struggling economy."^[6]”

Edited September 8, 2019 by Zeitgeist

[bush_cheney2004]

7 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Very different.  I’m on record for advocating a new immigration category that allows people to become full citizens (no different from any other citizens) after having completed a residential requirement.   Such a candidate chooses to meet this requirement to obtain citizenship.  He/she doesn’t have to apply. This is not two- tier citizenship because the candidate isn’t a citizen until criteria are met.  We have seasonal workers, student visas, work permits, a variety of categories of people living and working in Canada who aren’t citizens, as in the US. 

 

Your idea is DOA...would never survive the Charter Rights spin cycle with Supreme Court, especially nowadays.

Canada has signed on to international treaties for refugees and immigrants, including the purposeful exclusion of Palestinians for protections by design.

If it is such a great idea, why do more Canadians and resident aliens (immigrants) go south to the USA than north to the frozen promised land ?

(P.S.  How warm is your property in Florida ?)

Edited September 8, 2019 by bush_cheney2004

[Dougie93]

Palestinian is simply a legal construct of the British Empire.

Palestinian's never ruled.

600 years of Ottoman Turk rule followed by British rule.

The Zionists overthrew that in 1948

Declaration of Independence.

Revolutionary War.

The Arabs who decline to cede the decision by force of arms; impose hardship upon themselves; by waging unlawful war amongst the people.in contravention of the laws of armed conflict.

Israel is well within its rights as a Wesphalian state to impose martial law and harsh restrictions as necessary under UN Article 51 and the Hague Conventions.

[Zeitgeist]

Just now, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Your idea is DOA...would never survive the Charter Rights spin cycle with Supreme Court, especially nowadays.

Canada has signed on to international treaties for refugees and immigrants, including the purposeful exclusion of Palestinians for protections by design.

If it is such a great idea, why do more Canadians and resident aliens go south to the USA than north to the frozen promised land ?

Stop going off topic to push your US supremacy moves.  Most Canadians prefer our country and system so get over it.  I assume most Americans prefer America.  Don’t care.  

Canada doesn’t support the new Israeli settlements and has supported UN resolutions of condemnation where the US has not.  In some cases Canada abstained when the US voted in support of bad moves by Israel.  Harper was dangerously pro Israel, yet Canada also turned away a ship of Jewish refugees during WW2, so no, Canada is far from angelic on this.

On a different topic that you choose you rehabilitate, people generally prefer warmer climates unless the society and economy are worse in the warmer country.   The US is a land of opportunity and has a better climate, yet it has more social problems, violence, and racism, so some very talented people are choosing Canada for that reason, certainly not all.  

Canadians tend to settle in the southern part of the country for climate and the economics of being in the largest cities, but that isn’t healthy for the long term settlement of the country in terms of environment, quality of life, and eventually, if allowed to continue at the current rate, the economy as a whole.  How do we counter this without placing restrictions on citizens?  One effective way is to make a residential requirement for a period of time a condition for obtaining citizenship as just one immigration category.  

[bush_cheney2004]

1 minute ago, Zeitgeist said:

Stop going off topic to push your US supremacy moves.  Most Canadians prefer our country and system so get over it.  I assume most Americans prefer America.  Don’t care. 

 

Can't get any more Canadian than the Charter and Supreme Court of Canada.   Ditto the UN treaties that Canada has ratified...excluding Palestinian refugees.

Trying to deflect to the U.S. won't work this time...or for immigrants.

 

Quote

Canada doesn’t support the new Israeli settlements and has supported UN resolutions of condemnation where the US has not.  In some cases Canada abstained when the US voted in support of bad moves by Israel.  Harper was dangerously pro Israel, yet Canada also turned away a ship of Jewish refugees during WW2, so no, Canada is far from angelic on this.

 

Stop tap dancing....has Canada admitted a large number of Palestinian immigrants/refugees or not ?  Answer:  NO  (regardless of ruling party).

 

Quote

On a different topic that you choose you rehabilitate, people generally prefer warmer climates unless the society and economy are worse in the warmer country.   The US is a land of opportunity and has a better climate, yet it has more social problems, violence, and racism, so some very talented people are choosing Canada for that reason, certainly not all. 

 

Sure, which is why you are there too, as are the most immigrants for any country in the world.   Telling them they must serve a stint in Canada's frozen north will not get many takers, because they don't have to.  

Even more contrary to your goals, some immigrants to Canada just see it as a stepping stone to the United States, with Canada's net migration numbers reflecting this reality (losses).

 

[jacee]

33 minutes ago, scribblet said:

Hardly, but I'll let this just sit here because...   I don't think I've every seen that complete denial before.   oh yea what does Hamas manifesto say

On the Destruction of Israel:
-----------------------------

'Israel will exist and  will  continue  to  exist  until  Islam  will

obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it.' (Preamble)

There is no viable threat of that now.

There is only the reality of Israel, persistently obliterating Palestinians. 

[Dougie93]

16 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Stop going off topic to push your US supremacy moves. 

Dark forces bringing the tide of American freedom over the Iron Curtain of the Eskimo Communist Post National State Republic of Downtown Toronto.

Empire of Liberty

Manifest Destiny

[Zeitgeist]

4 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Can't get any more Canadian than the Charter and Supreme Court of Canada.   Ditto the UN treaties that Canada has ratified...excluding Palestinian refugees.

Trying to deflect to the U.S. won't work this time...or for immigrants.

 

 

Stop tap dancing....has Canada admitted a large number of Palestinian immigrants/refugees or not ?  Answer:  NO  (regardless of ruling party).

 

 

Sure, which is why you are there too, as are the most immigrants for any country in the world.   Telling them they must serve a stint in Canada's frozen north will not get many takers, because they don't have to.  

Even more contrary to your goals, some immigrants to Canada just see it as a stepping stone to the United States, with Canada's net migration numbers reflecting this reality (losses).

 

You really can’t handle how the tides are turning and talented internationals are reconsidering the US as the choice destination:

https://www.bloomberg.com/amp/news/articles/2019-06-12/canada-is-luring-tech-talent-away-from-u-s-with-fast-track-visa

Canada has more people wanting to immigrate than the country can accept or process under all categories.  We need to go further to make sure immigration works for Canada.  Encouraging northern settlement, or at least settlement outside of southern Ontario (perhaps also Montreal) and BC’s lower mainland, is one way.   

[Yzermandius19]

3 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

You really can’t handle how the tides are turning and talented internationals are reconsidering the US as the choice destination:

https://www.bloomberg.com/amp/news/articles/2019-06-12/canada-is-luring-tech-talent-away-from-u-s-with-fast-track-visa

You really can't handle that more immigrants want to go to America than Canada, can you? The tides are not turning at all, wishful thinking is a helluva drug.

Edited September 8, 2019 by Yzermandius19

[bush_cheney2004]

Just now, Zeitgeist said:

You really can’t handle how the tides are turning and talented internationals are reconsidering the US as the choice destination:

https://www.bloomberg.com/amp/news/articles/2019-06-12/canada-is-luring-tech-talent-away-from-u-s-with-fast-track-visa

Canada has more people wanting to immigrate than the country can accept or process under all categories.  We need to go further to make sure immigration works for Canada.  Encouraging northern settlement, or at least settlement outside of southern Ontario (perhaps also Montreal) and BC’s lower mainland, is one way.   

 

Are you joking ?    My company took advantage of the Canadian IT sweatshops in Toronto and Montreal, paying immigrants far less but keeping them on your side of the border.    We called it "nearshoring".  Those that did come stateside were promptly shipped back to play more visa games in the future.   Takes years to get permanent U.S. residency (green card), even for Canadian citizens.    

Go north !   Yeah, like that's gonna work.   Good luck wit that.   

Hell, there are Canadian citizens fighting for work in the U.S. too....100's of thousands.

[Dougie93]

2 minutes ago, Yzermandius19 said:

You really can't handle that more immigrants want to go to America than Canada, can you? The tides are not turning at all, wishful thinking is a helluva drug.

Canada can't handle the immigrant because it is a moribund socialist economy.

Milton Friedman's Hong Kong knows.

More British than the British, the British having made themselves Bolshies for the most part.