Alberta Separation

[Dougie93]

Indeed, in fact,  within the shotgun marriage of Confederation, Ontario and Quebec are more married to each other than the West is married to Ontario and Quebec.

Reason being the West was settled later and by very different people.

The West was settled mostly by English ex-pats coming direct from the UK and not until the early 1900's, the cowboys were all Englishmen who were gung-ho for the Empire.

You look at who it was who charged into The Great War in 1915, the Canadian Expeditionary Force was predominately ex-pats from the West, my great-grandfather on my father's side included, being an Orangeman from Ulster.

Western Canada is like Australia, Eastern Canada is like New Zealand, there is no unified national interest in Canada, contrary to priggish Canadian sentiment, Canada is a house divided far more so than America is, moreover America is designed to take the pounding whereas Canada can't handle any boat rocking at all, hence why boat rocking is prohibited by the Nanny Police State.

Canada didn't settle Alberta, it wasn't like America where the Americans went west, the Canadians didn't go west, the British settled the Canadian west for Canada directly, hence why Alberta is the way Alberta is and why it doesn't fit into the Nanny Police State with the rest of the prigs.

Edited July 20, 2019 by Dougie93

[Army Guy]

23 hours ago, QuebecOverCanada said:

Czech Republic and Slovakia separated... no harm was done.

Your right, did you also know that they are the only former socialist state to have an entirely peaceful breakup. All the rest have had conflict, Such as the break up of the Soviet Union, Yugoslavia is a huge example of what not to do, north and south Korea, Sudan/south Sudan, Ethiopia / Eritrea, India / Pakistan, Sebia/ Kosovo The list goes on forever....the point here is Most separations devolve into conflict.

And don't think it will not happen in Canada, during the last attempt of Quebec's separation, the 5 th CMBG ( CFB Valcartier, was sent to new York state) to take any French military units out of the picture and from getting involved, at the time Quebec was actively recruiting or asking DND persons where they're loyalties lie....…. F-18 in Bagoville were sent to the USA as well once on the ground all aircraft were grounded by US forces on orders from our government. CFB Petawawa had it's alert status upgraded, recall all soldiers recalled from leave and confined to area, 3 RCR was placed on the highest alert level, told to expect immediate deployment...all of this was in response to the separation vote, and while nothing happened, what do you think would have had the vote turned the other way..... had it gone badly our military would have deployed into Quebec...How would that have gone over with Quebec citizens ?....not very well I would think...Just a note these actions were taken by a liberal government with strong ties to Quebec.... 

Like I have said, what is it that Quebec expects to get from separating, other than freedom, I mean no economy , no credit rating to speak off, no currency, no major military equipment, it faces a massive pull out of federal depts., and all of its funding, like CPP, funding for projects , or lets not mention the 9 bil in federal payments, no trade agreements with anyone, lets not mention all the federal infra structure thats not going to be free...Quebec's borders will not look like todays, Canada must be able to have freedom of movement between Ontario and the Atlantic provinces, it also has to have freedom of movement of goods and services along the ST Lawrence sea way. and while Quebec will be hurting for decades so will the ROC, our dollar will lose value, our GDP will suffer, everything will change...   

[Army Guy]

9 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Interesting take on things...echoed here:

 

 

Thats democracy, most western nations have the same issues, with unity, including the States, I mean how does the other states describe those from California for example, not everyone gets along within the union, ...everything about a free democracy is fragile and can be sent into a spin with very little effort....History is full of examples...empires come and go, and yet history also shows were are stronger as a whole than if we broke it all apart, so we could do our own thing....

 

[Army Guy]

6 hours ago, Dougie93 said:

Indeed, in fact,  within the shotgun marriage of Confederation, Ontario and Quebec are more married to each other than the West is married to Ontario and Quebec.

Reason being the West was settled later and by very different people.

The West was settled mostly by English ex-pats coming direct from the UK and not until the early 1900's, the cowboys were all Englishmen who were gung-ho for the Empire.

You look at who it was who charged into The Great War in 1915, the Canadian Expeditionary Force was predominately ex-pats from the West, my great-grandfather on my father's side included, being an Orangeman from Ulster.

Western Canada is like Australia, Eastern Canada is like New Zealand, there is no unified national interest in Canada, contrary to priggish Canadian sentiment, Canada is a house divided far more so than America is, moreover America is designed to take the pounding whereas Canada can't handle any boat rocking at all, hence why boat rocking is prohibited by the Nanny Police State.

Canada didn't settle Alberta, it wasn't like America where the Americans went west, the Canadians didn't go west, the British settled the Canadian west for Canada directly, hence why Alberta is the way Alberta is and why it doesn't fit into the Nanny Police State with the rest of the prigs.

You guys can find a million reasons to separate, and those that think this union of Canada works at it's best when we are together can find a millions reason not to separate....happens in any group or 2 or more people your not going to find one solution that is going to make every one happy.....But history has shown clearly that separation is not the end all be all, That the grass on the other side is always greener, until you get over there and find out that military pension you like so much is gone, CPP gone, any other form of welfare payment is gone....and you and your family are pushed into survival mode.. our economy is going to suffer, our dollar will be worth shit, ahhh so what you need a wheel barrow full of dollar bills to buy bread...anyone remember the 30's when our economy went to shit.... ya good luck with all that, how is the last 4 generations prepared for that type of event,   .....can you imagine the devastation to todays generation when you can no longer pay the bills, live in your house, get a job, feed your family...ya that always brings out the best in people right......but hey you'll have freedom....good luck trying to eat freedom....freedom does not keep you warm at night, nor does it keep you and your family safe...

Anyone that has seen conflict first hand knows that it does not take a whole lot of effort to tear down what we have today, and turn it into something that looks like Yugo, Somolia etc...Ask them how freedom tastes, and was it worth all the death and destruction , and what have they gained....that was worth all of that...

You talk of periods in time when our country was in crises Boar war, WWI, WWII, Korea the list goes on....tell me when was the last time as a soldier you gave a rats ass who was in charge and where in the country they came from....Last time I checks all you cared about was the guy on the left and right of you...comrades in arms...could be from any where really Quebec, Alberta, Maritimes....when did it matter, it never did ...who cares who is the PM and what party they are from, or what policies they would bring in , who has the most oil, what province was poorer or richer, ....what was important was the person on the left and right....the same attitude that built this nation from log cabins to sprawling urban centers...all of that would be impossible had we just walked away because of a few differences, or because we spoke a different language.  

We all have our differences, I think BC is full of hippies and peaceniks Greens who eat way to many mushrooms, and smoke shit tones of weed, But they are still Canadian and when in time of crises, or hard times I know I can count on them to have my back....we all have our reasons and things we dislike about our nation....But I will tell you this , the best years of my life were when I served this nation from east coast to west coast and I wore that Canadian flag on my uniform....and every time I came home from some shit hole on the other side of the globe, I always gave thanks to god for allowing me to grow up and raise my family in Canada.

 

[Dougie93]

I don't owe Canada a thing, I have fulfilled my obligations to Canada several times over, it is Canada which has failed to live up to its obligations to me.

Does not protect me.  Does not protect my property. Does not protect my rights. 

Fails to meet the threshold of a Westphalian State.

Canada is not sovereign, Canada is a nothing. A load of vacuous ahistorical pap peddled by a billion dollar state propaganda arm.

All relations with the state are by contractual agreement.

It is simply not in my interests to bear any particular allegiance to a Post National State run by Progressive Multicult Bolsheviks.

 

Edited July 21, 2019 by Dougie93

[bush_cheney2004]

1 hour ago, Army Guy said:

Thats democracy, most western nations have the same issues, with unity, including the States, I mean how does the other states describe those from California for example, not everyone gets along within the union, ...everything about a free democracy is fragile and can be sent into a spin with very little effort....History is full of examples...empires come and go, and yet history also shows were are stronger as a whole than if we broke it all apart, so we could do our own thing....

 

 

...and yet other Canadians have also expressed much less nationalism and commitment to confederation.   Southern California has no Clarity Act escape clause from the union, unlike Canadian provinces.   America fought a civil war over secession...would Canada ?

[Army Guy]

15 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

...and yet other Canadians have also expressed much less nationalism and commitment to confederation.   Southern California has no Clarity Act escape clause from the union, unlike Canadian provinces.   America fought a civil war over secession...would Canada ?

I would agree most Americans are 100 % more patriotic than Canadians, or atleast they are more visual and vocal about it...And while all the states are locked into the union , it does not mean California is the most popular state in the union, I would compare it to BC, full of peace niks and tree huggers, and dope smoking hippies....

This is my point , there are few separations that end well, Canada is not immune to all of that, when diplomacy does not work, then it normally ends in violence..

[Machjo]

On 7/18/2019 at 9:33 PM, J4L said:

New polls released show that just over 50% OF Alberta residents would support becoming their own country if Trudeau and the Liberals win the election.

A landlocked country would need to develop very friendly relations with at least one maritime country. Which one would that be?

[Queenmandy85]

I do not see how we could avoid a civil war or at least a terrorist campaign in any province were to separate. A possible scenario is a terrorist campaign forcing the government of an independent Quebec or Alberta to request aid to the civil power from the Canadian Forces. Two dozen people could damage the strategic infrastructure in Alberta or Quebec.

[Dougie93]

28 minutes ago, Queenmandy85 said:

I do not see how we could avoid a civil war or at least a terrorist campaign in any province were to separate. A possible scenario is a terrorist campaign forcing the government of an independent Quebec or Alberta to request aid to the civil power from the Canadian Forces. Two dozen people could damage the strategic infrastructure in Alberta or Quebec.

 

Doubtful, DND is so feeble in the face of trying to control 9 million square kilometers with 20, 000 troops, the federal government would have to capitulate right out of the gate.

The Canadian Forces really are a hollowed out shell at this point, military force is not an option for a Post National State which relies entirely on the Americans for logistics.

Moreover, it is entirely constitutional to secede from Confederation, now affirmed by rendered judgement of the Supreme Court of Canada.

An illegal war in the face of peaceful democratic self determination under the Clarity Act is an utterly untenable position for any Government of Canada.

Edited July 21, 2019 by Dougie93

[Dougie93]

To wit, vive le Quebec, vive le Quebec libre, we will bring this Confederation down in the end and there is nothing you can do to stop us.

All the king's horses and all the kings men, barely fields a Brigade Combat Team in Canada now.

Progressive Multicult Bolsheviks don't have the resolve to fight a war, and even if they did, it would end with them hanging from the lampposts and no other.

[Queenmandy85]

1 hour ago, Dougie93 said:

Moreover, it is entirely constitutional to secede from Confederation, now affirmed by rendered judgement of the Supreme Court of Canada.

An illegal war in the face of peaceful democratic self determination under the Clarity Act is an utterly untenable position for any Government of Canada.

You mis-read what I said. I said that terrorist actions by a few idiots could cause the government of an independent Quebec or Alberts to request aid from the Canadian Forces to defend the right of Quebec or Alberta to secede peacefully. The campaign by the OAS in Algeria or the FLQ demonstrates how easy it is for a few people to disrupt the peace.

[Dougie93]

20 minutes ago, Queenmandy85 said:

You mis-read what I said. I said that terrorist actions by a few idiots could cause the government of an independent Quebec or Alberts to request aid from the Canadian Forces to defend the right of Quebec or Alberta to secede peacefully. The campaign by the OAS in Algeria or the FLQ demonstrates how easy it is for a few people to disrupt the peace.

And I said the Government of Canada would be forced to capitulate in the face of such now, because it's not 1970 anymore, Canada doesn't have the troops to put down even a minor apprehended insurrection, the Fenian's couldn't have taken Canada in 1866 perhaps, but they certainly could now.

Mind you, the GoC could request the assistance of the United States Northern Command at Peterson AFB Colorado  under the Continental Defense and Security Agreement.

Might be a tactical victory, but the strategic consequences of American boots on the ground would be a whole 'nother Pandora's box unto itself.

[Zeitgeist]

The facts are that Canadians are generally less polarized than Americans and happier.  National pride is also strong.  There is simply no great appetite for separation from either Quebec or Alberta in Canada.  The reality for Alberta is that the federal government has backstopped any losses on a Transmountain pipeline by buying it.  British Columbia and Quebec will continue to be themselves with or without Alberta in Canada. The diversity and regional differences within Canada are both a strength and a weakness. They are a strength because of the identities and freedoms afforded by our loose federation and small population.  They are a weakness because in times of crisis, usually economic, interprovincial barriers are resented, such as in regard to BC and Quebec’s resistance to pipelines from Alberta, but that has little to do with Canada and Confederation, which actually supports national projects like pipelines.  

There is no clear advantage to breakup and Balkanization, but there are clear disadvantages.  The Confederation Bridge, CN Railroad, and St. Lawrence Seaway wouldn’t have been built without federal support.  Remote communities, especially in the north, would struggle to survive without the infrastructure a federal government provides.  Giving it all over to the US would simply replicate the monoculture of chains and mainstream Anglo-American culture, which gets boring. Canadians value Canada, and will likely preserve it as long as free representative democracy prevails.  People keep coming to Canada because they see its value.  

Edited July 22, 2019 by Zeitgeist

[Dougie93]

The reality is that Canada and associated entrenched interest elites are being propped up by central banks in what has become a monstrous leverage bomb by runaway policy stimulus.

Global debt is four times total global economic output, when that debt bubble implodes, then the truth of failed Confederation will be revealed, Canada won't be the only federation to go under in the coming storm.

[Zeitgeist]

17 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

The reality is that Canada and associated entrenched interest elites are being propped up by central banks in what has become a monstrous leverage bomb by runaway policy stimulus.

Global debt is four times total global economic output, when that debt bubble implodes, then the truth of failed Confederation will be revealed, Canada won't be the only federation to go under in the coming storm.

I don’t disagree that the world is over-leveraged.  I simply don’t see how dividing into small units is a greater protection than national unity.  I know the ant-Globalists hate ideas like JT’s post-national state, but I don’t think he meant that countries would no longer have value or identities.  I think he meant that societies are healthiest when cultural/national identity is no longer a barrier to business and social harmony.  Essentially we just become a well-managed democracy with sub and supranational identities that don’t require an insular, protectionist nationalism.  It’s basically cosmopolitanism.  Progressives generally like it.  More extreme right elements feel threatened by it.  Interestingly, while PET brought in multiculturalism, he also fought for bilingualism and a Canadian identity.  I think you can have both a global and national perspective.  They don’t have to be mutually exclusive.  

[Dougie93]

8 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

I don’t disagree that the world is over-leveraged.  I simply don’t see how dividing into small units is a greater protection than national unity.  I know the ant-Globalists hate ideas like JT’s post-national state, but I don’t think he meant that countries would no longer have value or identities.  I think he meant that societies are healthiest when cultural/national identity is no longer a barrier to business and social harmony.  Essentially we just become a well-managed democracy with sub and supranational identities that don’t require an insular, protectionist nationalism.  It’s basically cosmopolitanism.  Progressives generally like it.  More extreme right elements feel threatened by it.  Interestingly, while PET brought in multiculturalism, he also fought for bilingualism and a Canadian identity.  I think you can have both a global and national perspective.  They don’t have to be mutually exclusive.  

I don't disagree that the provinces are functioning democracies, the assertion that Confederation is functioning however, is a Big Lie.

Confederation is totally dysfunctional, does not achieve a single purpose for which it was enacted, does not meet the practical definition of a sovereign Westphalian State.

That's not to say that it's all going to disappear into a black hole, it will simply devolve into Sovereignty Association and further entrench itself as an American Protectorate.

It will actually work better with a divorce, the shotgun marriage allows the provinces to dig their heels in, Sovereignty Association would force them to negotiate,

Confederation is inherently infantilizing,  not just to the people of Canada, the National Helicopter Parent turns the provinces into big babies too.

Edited July 22, 2019 by Dougie93

[J4L]

I just returned from Manitoba after visiting family. Even though.i was born and raised there, Manitoba is the same backwards dump I remember it to be.

I am glad to be back in Alberta, and I am starting to warm up to the idea of Alberta having more autonomy over their affairs. Frustrating to know that the 600 billion or so Alberta has been forced to give in transfer payments, is blown by the have-not provinces.

[taxme]

On 7/19/2019 at 6:59 AM, Michael Hardner said:

So much horseshit.  Show me the program where Trudeau pays immigrants' rent.

The problem with politics today, and this board now, is people make bullshit claims without cites.

Back up your claims ffs.

Have you not yet heard about how illegal criminal refugees that have been crossing into Canada illegally have been put up in hotels in Ontario by the federal government yet? The Rebel will explain that all to you. Oh ya The Rebel that right wing news outfit that you despise so much and not worth the time of day to listen too.    I suppose that all those 30,000 Syrian refugees that Trudeau brought over to Canada a couple of years ago had the money to rent or buy a house to live in, right? Get real, will you. You need to listen once in awhile to alternative media like The Rebel for a change and maybe learn something.  Still want to call what I said above is all "horseshit"?  Prove me wrong if you can? 

[taxme]

On 7/18/2019 at 7:06 PM, bcsapper said:

It doesn't work!

Well duh. Leaving the pipelines sitting around to rust will not work. Trudeau probably bought the pipeline so that it will never get laid. Liberalism? So full of a bunch of mindless nobody's. Just saying. 

[taxme]

On 7/18/2019 at 7:57 PM, Queenmandy85 said:

I'm curious. How would separation change anything. There would no longer be any reason to build the pipeline through BC. Economic power would remain in the east because power is driven by geography. What would be the advantage for Alberta?

Alberta would be better off to just deal with the Americans rather than try to work with BC or the rest of Canada(Quebec) and be done with it. No marketing board outfit to tell them what they can and cannot sell by quota. With the BC government of today and it being full of a bunch of socialist/communist gang of environmentalist bullies who are against everything progress  it's hard to start a business in BC. There are just too many rules and regulations and taxes. Alberta does not stand a chance with those commies in the BC government or with most of the BC people that is full of environmentalists who also are always against progress and growth and just about everything else. The big advantage for Alberta would be that they would not have to be bullied around by the french liberal/socialists like feminist Trudeau in Ottawa anymore.  No more bilingualism. That would save the Alberta taxpayer's millions of their tax dollars every year. Alberta would be better off without the rest of Canada. Maybe you could tell me what the advantages are for Alberta to stay in Canada? Over to you. 

[Dougie93]

25 minutes ago, taxme said:

Have you not yet heard about how illegal criminal refugees that have been crossing into Canada illegally have been put up in hotels in Ontario by the federal government yet? The Rebel will explain that all to you. Oh ya The Rebel that right wing news outfit that you despise so much and not worth the time of day to listen too.    I suppose that all those 30,000 Syrian refugees that Trudeau brought over to Canada a couple of years ago had the money to rent or buy a house to live in, right? Get real, will you. You need to listen once in awhile to alternative media like The Rebel for a change and maybe learn something.  Still want to call what I said above is all "horseshit"?  Prove me wrong if you can? 

The Raddisson East off the 401 is literally called the "Refugee Hotel" now.  Apparently it's a hell hole.

https://www.narcity.com/ca/on/toronto/news/hundreds-of-furious-tourists-are-sharing-their-horror-stories-at-this-toronto-hotel

[taxme]

16 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

The Raddisson East off the 401 is literally called the "Refugee Hotel" now.  Apparently it's a hell hole.

https://www.narcity.com/ca/on/toronto/news/hundreds-of-furious-tourists-are-sharing-their-horror-stories-at-this-toronto-hotel

I can guarantee you that MH will never reply to your post because now he has been called out. When the truth is exposed to some people they will try to deny it no matter what or how truthful it may be. But it would sure be interesting to see and read MH reply to this post and hear as to what he has to say now? Just curious.  

[Dougie93]

23 minutes ago, taxme said:

I can guarantee you that MH will never reply to your post because now he has been called out. When the truth is exposed to some people they will try to deny it no matter what or how truthful it may be. But it would sure be interesting to see and read MH reply to this post and hear as to what he has to say now? Just curious.  

I don't find the Progressive Bolsheviks of Toronto to be particularly relevant anyways, we will bring this Confederation down by way of Quebec, the Clarity Act does not bind us to ask Toronto's permission to do it.

People in Toronto live in a sealed off bubble, they won't even realize that the revolution is upon them until it is too late to do anything about it.

In the meantime, bring on the refugees, the more the better, nothing is quite so destabilizing as open borders and foreigners running amok, chaos is a ladder.

Quebec is an ethno-nationalist state, the Progressive impulse to overthrow such states; will overthrow Canada in the end.

Edited August 2, 2019 by Dougie93

[WestCanMan]

On 7/18/2019 at 6:59 PM, Michael Hardner said:

Why though?  He bought them a damn pipeline.  Are they stupid out there or what?

Trudeau just wasted $4B taxpayer money unless the "pipeline" magically gets built, in spite of his own anti-pipeline stance and legislation.

Trudeau scared away over $130 billion in Alberta since he was elected, shut down coal-fired electricity in Alberta, and yet bent his weaselly back to save jobs in Quebec. He has said and done more for terrorists than Albertans since he was elected. To say that Albertans hate Trudeau is an understatement.

If Trudeau gets re-elected I hope Alberta does leave Canada. I'll go back there. Quebec will suddenly lose $10B/year in transfer payments, then maybe they'll leave too.