DogOnPorch Posted March 24, 2019 Report Posted March 24, 2019 10 hours ago, jacee said: Nobody said you have to respect the dogma. But you do have to refrain from inciting or promoting hatred against all Muslim people in a public way in Canada, to avoid legal repercussions for yourself. But of course you only do it anonymously, though in these days of heightened awareness of the consequences of hate propaganda, police may also be looking to identify anonymous online haters. You want people to shut-up and be quiet about Islam as it conducts its business. Be it murder or otherwise. Understood. I don't think that's going to happen. You can try to force it, but then who are you really serving? Islam? You bet... Also...calling people 'haters' for not liking a religion that encourages its believers to hate the unbeliever is rather ironic. Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
DogOnPorch Posted March 24, 2019 Report Posted March 24, 2019 15 minutes ago, marcus said: This is exactly the problem. Your closed mind creates ignorance, which breeds bigotry. You have very little understanding of what you think you dislike. What's your favorite thing about Islamic majority countries? Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
Argus Posted March 24, 2019 Report Posted March 24, 2019 (edited) 7 hours ago, marcus said: This is exactly the problem. Your closed mind creates ignorance, which breeds bigotry. You have very little understanding of what you think you dislike. I have very little understanding of the kind of violent, vicious religious prejudice which thrives in all Muslim countries, that's true. You're welcome to go live there if that's your thing. And anyone who attempts to deny that violent, vicious religious prejudice thrives at all levels of society and government in every Muslim country is a liar or an idiot. There is not one of t he 50+ Muslim countries which is free and democratic. There is not one where women and men are treated equally under the law or where Muslims and non Muslims are treated equally or which does not have severe punishments, up to and including death, for crimes of morality. To pretend this is coincidental to the religion they all worship is moronic. Edited March 24, 2019 by Argus 2 "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted March 24, 2019 Report Posted March 24, 2019 13 hours ago, cannuck said: I have made many, many trips and stays in KSA. I have also been on several trips into smaller communities in the desert. I never stay in Western hotels, always Saudi ones, and what you are saying about being welcoming and safe is very true. I have enjoyed many an evening in those very special rooms in the back of many businesses where only good friends gain entry and vast quantities of tea and coffee float one away at the end of the day. BUT: when I am away from friends and business associates, complete strangers treat me equally as Cool! Do they let you watch the beheadings and torturings? Maybe a little whipping for lunch? 2 "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
OftenWrong Posted March 24, 2019 Report Posted March 24, 2019 (edited) 13 hours ago, cannuck said: BTW: lest one think it is just "me", one of my very good friends and business partners is Chinese - and of course has a very different viewpoint on the world. He opened an office in Dammam for his former employers and has similar feelings and experiences from his time there. No doubt it is very good to do business there. Very, very good... Edited March 24, 2019 by OftenWrong 1
Argus Posted March 24, 2019 Report Posted March 24, 2019 (edited) 6 minutes ago, OftenWrong said: No doubt it is very good to do business there. Very, very good... And if you know the right people they let you do whatever you want to all those female prisoners arrested for protesting not having any human rights! What fun! https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/report-alleges-torture-of-imprisoned-saudi-women-s-rights-activists-escalating-1.4990736 Edited March 24, 2019 by Argus 1 "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Zeitgeist Posted March 24, 2019 Report Posted March 24, 2019 (edited) 16 minutes ago, Argus said: I have very little understanding of the kind of violent, vicious religious prejudice which thrives in all Muslim countries, that's true. You're welcome to go live there if that's your thing. And anyone who attempts to deny that violent, vicious religious prejudice thrives at all levels of society and government in every Muslim country is a liar or an idiot. There is not one of t he 50+ Muslim countries which is free and democratic. There is not one where women and men are treated equally under the law or where Muslims and non Muslims are treated equally or which does not have severe punishments, up to and including death, for crimes of morality. To pretend this is coincidental to the religion they all worship is moronic. That’s over the top, Argus. For one thing, the people within these countries have different ideas about equality from us. They believe that they are honouring women by keeping them covered and imposing other restrictions. Of course it’s easy to write it all off as backwards and sexist through our cultural lens, but I do see virtues in a more traditional way of life where family and respect are at the centre of the culture. No I wouldn’t trade our freedom and cultural values for it, but I think there’s a lot of confusion and drift in western society because not everyone can handle the lack of a structured community where everyone is expected to know their place. I think some people are more comfortable with the submission that Islamic society provides, and I do think our culture is a bit too unmoored at times. The point is, yes there are things to learn and appreciate from those societies. Don’t write them off. We have to respect the Muslim peoples if we wish to command the same respect for western peoples. Edited March 24, 2019 by Zeitgeist
Argus Posted March 24, 2019 Report Posted March 24, 2019 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said: That’s over the top, Argus. For one thing, the people within these countries have different ideas about equality from us. They believe that they are honouring women by keeping them covered and imposing other restrictions. = And most Germans were very nice people in 1939. They just had different cultural beliefs and beliefs about equality. They believed they were improving the human race by eliminating 'defective' members, and thus improving society. You know why western countries tolerate the existence of the Saudi dynasty? Because the only thing likely to replace it is one much worse. Edited March 24, 2019 by Argus "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Zeitgeist Posted March 24, 2019 Report Posted March 24, 2019 2 minutes ago, Argus said: And most Germans were very nice people in 1939. They just had different cultural beliefs and beliefs about equality. They believed they were improving the human race by eliminating 'defective' members, and thus improving society. Most people within these countries are just trying to get by and make the most of their talents. They have been born into traditions and beliefs that are quite different from ours. Again, I disagree with certain predominant world views and beliefs within these countries, but I think we do need to seek greater understanding and dialogue to prevent hate and violence.
Argus Posted March 24, 2019 Report Posted March 24, 2019 (edited) 1 minute ago, Zeitgeist said: Most people within these countries are just trying to get by and make the most of their talents. They have been born into traditions and beliefs that are quite different from ours. Again, I disagree with certain predominant world views and beliefs within these countries, but I think we do need to seek greater understanding and dialogue to prevent hate and violence. What greater understanding to you require of a theocracy which wants you to either convert to its beliefs or die? Edited March 24, 2019 by Argus 1 "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
OftenWrong Posted March 24, 2019 Report Posted March 24, 2019 12 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said: They believe that they are honouring women by keeping them covered and imposing other restrictions. Honouring women does not include beating the shit out of them, even unto death, for transgressions like showing your face. How do you possibly equate the two? 14 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said: I do see virtues in a more traditional way of life where family and respect are at the centre of the culture. As do I. I don't extend this idea of respect to abusing her right to liberty simply because she is a woman. 3
Zeitgeist Posted March 24, 2019 Report Posted March 24, 2019 1 minute ago, Argus said: What greater understanding to you require of a theocracy which wants you to either convert to its beliefs or die? So how to you propose to change such beliefs/ideology? I think that only through more learning and dialogue will people learn to trust each other and be critical of the problems within their own cultures, ours included. There is intolerance among both the left and the right, between different religious groups, and between religious and non-religious people. The centre is missing.
Argus Posted March 24, 2019 Report Posted March 24, 2019 3 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said: So how to you propose to change such beliefs/ideology? I think that only through more learning and dialogue will people learn to trust each other and be critical of the problems within their own cultures, ours included. There is intolerance among both the left and the right, between different religious groups, and between religious and non-religious people. The centre is missing. We cannot change people's religious views. The best we can do is to shield Canada from the impact of such fanaticism by banning the foreign religious scholars and clerics and their words from entry into Canada, as well as barring the importation of foreign money to fund such views here - as well as screening potential immigrants for such views. 1 "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Zeitgeist Posted March 24, 2019 Report Posted March 24, 2019 2 minutes ago, Argus said: We cannot change people's religious views. The best we can do is to shield Canada from the impact of such fanaticism by banning the foreign religious scholars and clerics and their words from entry into Canada, as well as barring the importation of foreign money to fund such views here - as well as screening potential immigrants for such views. I agree with the screening of immigrants, but let people’s speech face public judgement.
DogOnPorch Posted March 24, 2019 Report Posted March 24, 2019 1 minute ago, Zeitgeist said: I agree with the screening of immigrants, but let people’s speech face public judgement. Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) said, "I have been sent with the shortest expressions bearing the widest meanings, and I have been made victorious with terror (cast in the hearts of the enemy), and while I was sleeping, the keys of the treasures of the world were brought to me and put in my hand." Abu Huraira added: Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) has left the world and now you, people, are bringing out those treasures (i.e. the Prophet did not benefit by them). https://sunnah.com/bukhari/56/186 Now while you might think the Quran & Hadiths are a bunch of bunk...Muslims tend to believe they are the very word of Allah (Quran) or examples of the life of Muhammad (Hadiths). Islam orders Muslims to fight the Unbeliever (you...atheists included) until you join Islam or perish. Caliph Omar took this to the next level with his Pact of Omar...that being: how Islam treats the Unbeliever in Islamic jurisprudence. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pact_of_Umar Ignore at your peril...or be like jacee and blame the messenger...but it's as real as the nose on your face and we're importing it into our homes. Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
scribblet Posted March 24, 2019 Report Posted March 24, 2019 Meanwhile, I haven't heard much in our press about people uprising against Hamas which is crushing dissent , https://www.jpost.com/Israel-News/Hamas-faces-harsh-criticism-for-crushing-Gaza-protesters-583657 and an interesting thread on twitter Hey Ho - Ontario Liberals Have to Go - Fight Wynne - save our province
Argus Posted March 24, 2019 Report Posted March 24, 2019 30 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said: I agree with the screening of immigrants, but let people’s speech face public judgement. It already does. But there is a difference between that and government judgement. Government judgement rarely reflects public judgement. 1 "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
cannuck Posted March 24, 2019 Report Posted March 24, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, Argus said: Cool! Do they let you watch the beheadings and torturings? Maybe a little whipping for lunch? Those things do happen, and exactly why I like my exposure to conservative Islam to remain on their turf, not mine. By the same token: if you simply play by the rules and don't criticize what you see or insult people, you WILL be treated very fairly and very well. Edited March 24, 2019 by cannuck
cannuck Posted March 24, 2019 Report Posted March 24, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, OftenWrong said: No doubt it is very good to do business there. Very, very good... It COULD be, but in the last 30 years, I haven't made a penny from it. My involvement came from the desire to bring a Canadian company in to set up business there with a Saudi partner (there are certain advantages to having foreign tech, content, sales and experience when KSA domestics bid to Aramco or SABIC) but the '08/'09 crash ended all of that. Saudis tend to be extremely polite to Americans - but actually do not respect them at all. They trust Canadians a great deal (some of THE most delicate contracts for security stuff come from here) but we are so bad at selling ourselves and taking chances to expand overseas we never seem to get off of the ground. To paraphrase the attitude all over MENA: "If you can dream it, we will build it". It's just that the ABILITY to actually build stuff still has to come from expatriates. Fantastic opportunities were - and I assume still are there for Canadians. Edited March 24, 2019 by cannuck
taxme Posted March 24, 2019 Report Posted March 24, 2019 21 hours ago, DogOnPorch said: History isn't a strong suit in these folks. And neither is philosophy...never hearing of George Santayana, for one. Most Canadians can be quite ignorant about many things, especially politics. It is sad when one lives in a society where it's citizen's rely on and allow the mainstream leftist liberal media and their leftist liberal politicians to do the thinking for them. At one time there was hardly any alternative media around. Today there is plenty and now I am able to get the other side of the story and then be able to come to my own conclusion about whatever the topic is of the day. It has worked well for me. It never hurts to get the other side of the story. Works for me. 2
DogOnPorch Posted March 24, 2019 Report Posted March 24, 2019 5 minutes ago, taxme said: Most Canadians can be quite ignorant about many things, especially politics. It is sad when one lives in a society where it's citizen's rely on and allow the mainstream leftist liberal media and their leftist liberal politicians to do the thinking for them. At one time there was hardly any alternative media around. Today there is plenty and now I am able to get the other side of the story and then be able to come to my own conclusion about whatever the topic is of the day. It has worked well for me. It never hurts to get the other side of the story. Works for me. Yup...one is better off with Sargon of Akkad or Styxhexenhammer (a witch...heh) for their political commentaries these days. Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
Yzermandius19 Posted March 24, 2019 Report Posted March 24, 2019 On 3/23/2019 at 3:54 PM, jacee said: All religions are supremacist. Not my cuppa tea, but in Canada, people are free to believe what they wish as long as they are not interfering with that right of others. People can be challenged on their beliefs, but inciting or promoting hatred against people because of their religion is illegal. Unless they are white supremacists, then you think it's okay to interfere with their rights even they aren't violating the rights of others. 2
WestCanMan Posted March 25, 2019 Report Posted March 25, 2019 20 hours ago, marcus said: This is exactly the problem. Your closed mind creates ignorance, which breeds bigotry. You have very little understanding of what you think you dislike. Your answer is ten parts ad-hominem, zero parts substance. It bears more resemblance to a monkey flinging poo in the zoo than a Peterson/Harris type in a debate. Women in Iran just went to jail for taking of their own hijabs and a female lawyer who defended them is looking at lashes and 38 years or Iranian jail time. https://www.cnn.com/2019/03/12/middleeast/iran-sotoudeh-prison-intl/index.html That's the equivalent of a billion years in a Mexican prison. Do us all a favour, go to Iran and criticize the Ayatollah, or go criticize some mullahs in one of the countries that you consider safe, just like you could criticize priests here and make jokes in public about their pedophilia. Try talking about Erdogan or Assad or MBS or Ahmadinejad the same way that Acosta regularly speaks to Trump. You'll suddenly have a greater appreciation for orange people. 1 If the Cultist Narrative Network/Cultist Broadcasting Corporation gave an infinite number of monkeys an infinite number of typewriters, leftists would believe everything they typed. Bug-juice is the new Kool-aid. Ex-Canadian since April 2025
WestCanMan Posted March 25, 2019 Report Posted March 25, 2019 On 3/23/2019 at 2:15 PM, jacee said: Nobody said you have to respect the dogma. But you do have to refrain from inciting or promoting hatred against all Muslim people in a public way in Canada, to avoid legal repercussions for yourself. To be honest, you're part of the cycle of inciting & promoting hatred by saying that the attack in Christchurch was the result of "islamophobia", because that would only make sense if there had never actually been any muslim terrorist attacks against churches or Christmas markets. We all know there have been several in recent years. When you say that the attacks are the result of islamophobia that means that the attacker committed his evil dead purely based on an unreasoning fear that there would eventually be a deed as evil as his was, and that's obviously not the case. Your comment can easily be seen as an attempt to provide justification for islamic counter-violence because it provides the illusion that this is the start of some deeper level of evil religious bigotry that we've never seen before and you know full well that it's not. If you want to take a SJW stance, then say that there is no such thing as justifying that type of retaliation/revenge. Justification is the root of all great evil. Hateful people can always jump back in history to the date that's most convenient for them and use those events as justification - the cycle of depraved violence would never end. Say things like: "Killing innocent people in a Mosque is no different from/no better than killing people in a Church. The Christchurch killer is going to the same level of hell as every other terrorist before him, period." That's accurate and appropriate. It doesn't make broad accusations either way. If you know people who talk about retaliation being justified, you should gather whatever information you can about them and report it because they're vocally supporting terrorism, maybe even planning it or providing monetary assistance. 1 If the Cultist Narrative Network/Cultist Broadcasting Corporation gave an infinite number of monkeys an infinite number of typewriters, leftists would believe everything they typed. Bug-juice is the new Kool-aid. Ex-Canadian since April 2025
marcus Posted March 25, 2019 Report Posted March 25, 2019 1 hour ago, WestCanMan said: Your answer is ten parts ad-hominem, zero parts substance. It bears more resemblance to a monkey flinging poo in the zoo than a Peterson/Harris type in a debate. Women in Iran just went to jail for taking of their own hijabs and a female lawyer who defended them is looking at lashes and 38 years or Iranian jail time. https://www.cnn.com/2019/03/12/middleeast/iran-sotoudeh-prison-intl/index.html That's the equivalent of a billion years in a Mexican prison. Do us all a favour, go to Iran and criticize the Ayatollah, or go criticize some mullahs in one of the countries that you consider safe, just like you could criticize priests here and make jokes in public about their pedophilia. Try talking about Erdogan or Assad or MBS or Ahmadinejad the same way that Acosta regularly speaks to Trump. You'll suddenly have a greater appreciation for orange people. You missed the context and decided to reply to something that isn't there. I recommend understanding what you're replying to before you decide to reply. I have never once justified or have said anything nice about the Ayatollah, Erdogan, Assad or MBS. My comment was to Argus where he has once again decided to paint all people from Muslim countries as people who "behave horribly" in order to justify his racist and bigoted stance on shutting the door on immigrants from Muslim countries. Are you in favour of shutting the door on people from Muslim countries? More specifically, the women who are trying to stand up to the dictators in Iran? Because Argus is. He believes they all 'behave horribly' and does not want them in Canada. "What do you think of Western civilization?" Gandhi was asked. "I think it would be a good idea," he said.
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