Time to take on far-right terrorists

[Army Guy]

On 3/17/2019 at 4:14 PM, Saudi Monitor said:

 

Classic whataboutism at play, I condemn all of these things you have mentioned, and indeed, it has nothing to do with Islam.

It has everything to do with Islam, and the terrorist  own understanding of those Islamic scriptures...Just as Christian terrorist who use the bible to explain away their attacks .. to deny this is to deny the entire problem here...Religion has killed more people in the world than everything else combined...

[Goddess]

19 hours ago, eyeball said:

Like I said, Muslims clearly  place a really high premium on vengeance. 

Thank you for finally admitting that.

For normal people, vengeance never gets past the fantasy stage because our rational minds and moral compasses kick in.  And the fear of violent reprisal generally gives pause to vengeance-taking.

Islam is an example of what happens when a religion highjacks the rational mind and the moral compass is no longer pointing due North and violent reprisal is mandated in its teachings.

Quote

Just our bad luck our intelligence agencies didn't think about that a little more before picking a fight with so many of them and enraging so much of their world.

I've said before - the difference between Christianity and Islam is that very thing - Christianity is afraid to die.  Islam is not.  Martyrdom and vengeance-taking are a very large part of the religion.  

The effectiveness of revenge depends on your beliefs about whether it works.  And for Islam, it works.

Unless we are willing to cave into Islam's demands, like Britain did when it refused to accept Asia Bibi as a refugee due to a well-founded fear of violent Muslim reprisal, then the world is in for a tough time.  We are in for a tough time either way - whether we cave in to their demands or not.  So for that reason - I'm all for not caving in to their demands.

[jacee]

35 minutes ago, Argus said:

The foreign born percentage of our population is already at 22% and is expected to rise to 30% by 2035. So no, it's not paranoia when almost every second person in the country will originate elsewhere, or be the children of those who originated elsewhere.

Unh... ya ... as Canada always has been.

Just more xenophobic hysteria, Argus. 

Edited March 18, 2019 by jacee

[Rue]

1 hour ago, Goddess said:

Thank you for finally admitting that.

For normal people, vengeance never gets past the fantasy stage because our rational minds and moral compasses kick in.  And the fear of violent reprisal generally gives pause to vengeance-taking.

Islam is an example of what happens when a religion highjacks the rational mind and the moral compass is no longer pointing due North and violent reprisal is mandated in its teachings.

I've said before - the difference between Christianity and Islam is that very thing - Christianity is afraid to die.  Islam is not.  Martyrdom and vengeance-taking are a very large part of the religion.  

The effectiveness of revenge depends on your beliefs about whether it works.  And for Islam, it works.

Unless we are willing to cave into Islam's demands, like Britain did when it refused to accept Asia Bibi as a refugee due to a well-founded fear of violent Muslim reprisal, then the world is in for a tough time.  We are in for a tough time either way - whether we cave in to their demands or not.  So for that reason - I'm all for not caving in to their demands.

The US and every other country on this planet have societies that engage in vengeance or revenge. It is not specific to Muslim societies its specific to homo sapiens as a species that kills based on anger. I am not sure how we talk about humans as being vengeful by suggesting its more common with some then others. Is it? Is it all about Muslim religion creating this behaviour?

The person who initiated the attack was not Muslim and he stated what he did was in revenge for what Muslims have done. Has everyone missed that?

Why on a thread that tries to blame right wingers for this idiot we now engage in sophistry about Muslim ideology? Does anyone here really believe Christians turn the other cheek and for phack's sake my religion says fight back in direct ratio to what is needed to defend but no more then that but is it always followed? All of us have acted in vengeance and for that matter what religion is rational?

I am not defending any Muslim extremist but I won't engage in references that generalize it as being specific to Muslims only. That is the point and no not all Muslims practice the religion in a violent way and it serves as an injustice to say Ahmadi Muslims who have been the victim of violent Muslims to lump them in with them. Ahmadi Muslims do not practice or engage in violence and they are as Muslim as anyone. 

I talk this way because in the aftermath of an attack some of you want to blame it on right-wingers and others on Muslims.

That misses the point of what happened for phacks sake people died, innocent people. Why can we not just leave it at that and remember the dead? Why do we use their bodies to carry on with these rationalizations of why we do not like or hate or blame others for violent humans?

Edited March 18, 2019 by Rue

[bush_cheney2004]

5 minutes ago, Rue said:

The US and every other country on this planet have societies that engage in vengeance or revenge.

 

Is the "US" your benchmark for such matters ?    We nuked Japan...not Muslims.

[Donnie]

@jacee why do support Islam and Islamic nations?

Youre a proud leftist from what I understand.  If Im wrong please correct me.

Homosexuality/Trans is punishable by death in Islamic nations.  

Women are not treated equally in Islam.  Basically have few rights within Islam.

Both of these are important  to feminists and basically any western person.  How do you yourself justify your support of Islam given these above facts.

 

[Argus]

2 hours ago, jacee said:

Unh... ya ... as Canada always has been.

Unh, na, hasn't.

The only point in this country's history when the foreign born population was as high as it is now was in an eight year period before world war 1, and almost all the 'foreign born' were from the British isles, which were identical in almost all respects to Canada of the time.

[jacee]

1 hour ago, Donnie said:

@jacee why do support Islam and Islamic nations?

Youre a proud leftist from what I understand.  If Im wrong please correct me.

Homosexuality/Trans is punishable by death in Islamic nations.  

Women are not treated equally in Islam.  Basically have few rights within Islam.

Both of these are important  to feminists and basically any western person.  How do you yourself justify your support of Islam given these above facts.

This isn't a battle of religions.

It's a human rights issue.

I don't support the content of any religion.

I do support anyone's right to practice their religion as they choose, or freedom from religion, within the law. 

[jacee]

25 minutes ago, Argus said:

Unh, na, hasn't.

The only point in this country's history when the foreign born population was as high as it is now was in an eight year period before world war 1, and almost all the 'foreign born' were from the British isles, which were identical in almost all respects to Canada of the time.

Your concern is that more recent "foreign born" Canadians are not "identical in almost all respects to Canada of the time".

How so? 

[Argus]

17 minutes ago, jacee said:

Your concern is that more recent "foreign born" Canadians are not "identical in almost all respects to Canada of the time".

How so? 

Well, since this a topic about the alleged rise of the alt right, I will place it in that context. The rising anti-immigration sentiment is clearly being driven by... rising immigration. Hardly a surprise. Now do I think the anti-immigration sentiment would be as high if all the immigrants were from the British Isles? No, of course not. The degree to which the newcomers are different from us in the way they talk, act, look, behave and worship plays a huge part in the rising anger and resentment. Two thirds of Canadians told a recent poll that immigrants aren't doing enough to assimilate. That indicates a worry about the practices of newcomers becoming widespread.

It isn't a coincidence this guy in NZ attacked Muslims. Muslims are the primary concern, and with good reason.

Secular liberals smirk at the thought of Islam as a threat because most on the left are not very religious at all, and they do not comprehend what it means to be a devoted believer in a religion. They see that most western Christians pretty much ignore the nastier bits of the Christian (and Jewish) religions, and blithely assume Muslims do the same. But the Christian and Jewish faiths as practiced today went through the reformation and enlightenment. They are nothing like what they were centuries ago. No Christian or Jewish leader outside some tiny, isolated sect somewhere wants people killed for working on the sabbath or wearing two different kinds of threads in their clothing. But Islam never went through the reformation or enlightenment. ALL mainstream sects of Islam agree that the koran as written is the absolute word of God.

Therefore,  if it says gays must die, then gays must die. If it says unbelievers must be distrusted and treated badly, then that is the way it is. There simply is no disagreement on this from any of the major clerical schools or scholars.Thus when you look at attitudes towards gays, Jews, Christians, atheists or monotheists in the Muslim world you find violent prejudice. There are no admitted gays in the Muslim world since homosexuality is illegal in all Muslim countries. There are virtually no Jews left either. There are certainly no admitted atheists since that too is illegal, as is blaspheme and apostasy. It is not an accident that these things are severely punished throughout the Muslim world. The teachings on unbelievers and social values has not altered in hundreds of years.

That doesn't mean Muslims in the West are about to attack gays, Jews and women openly and thus go to prison (well, most of them) but as numbers grow in Western countries demands will grow for accommodation towards their social and religious values. And those religion based social values are diametrically opposed to ours. Fear of this, of large numbers of people settling here who are wedded to their religious values and will not assimilate because of that, are what is at the heart of rising anti-immigration sentiment.

Edited March 19, 2019 by Argus

[Donnie]

34 minutes ago, jacee said:

It's a human rights issue.

I do support anyone's right to practice their religion as they choose, or freedom from religion, within the law. 

I agree.  So how are homosexuals right to live, the most important human right,  less important the right of Muslims to practice Islam?

The Laws in Islamic Nations makes it a capital crime to put Homosexuals to death.  This is a law of Islamic nations.  Since you support the practice of Islam within the law.  You support this law?

 

[Zeitgeist]

45 minutes ago, Donnie said:

I agree.  So how are homosexuals right to live, the most important human right,  less important the right of Muslims to practice Islam?

The Laws in Islamic Nations makes it a capital crime to put Homosexuals to death.  This is a law of Islamic nations.  Since you support the practice of Islam within the law.  You support this law?

 

You mean it makes homosexuality punishable by death.  

[jacee]

50 minutes ago, Argus said:

Well, since this a topic about the alleged rise of the alt right, I will place it in that context. The rising anti-immigration sentiment is clearly being driven by... rising immigration. Hardly a surprise. Now do I think the anti-immigration sentiment would be as high if all the immigrants were from the British Isles? No, of course not. The degree to which the newcomers are different from us in the way they talk, act, look, behave and worship plays a huge part in the rising anger and resentment.

So they can be from the British Isles as long as they aren't different from us in the way they talk, act, look, behave and worship ?

53 minutes ago, Argus said:

Secular liberals smirk at the thought of Islam as a threat because most on the left are not very religious at all, and they do not comprehend what it means to be a devoted believer in a religion

Are you saying that 'devoted believers in a religion' are freaking out about foreign born Muslim Canadians? I haven't noticed that to be true. Church and synagogue people are always at the white supremacist rallies to drown out the anti-Muslim hate speech.

54 minutes ago, Argus said:

ALL mainstream sects of Islam agree that the koran as written is the absolute word of God

Has a Christian ever said that the Bible isn't the absolute word of God ? 

1 hour ago, Argus said:

That doesn't mean Muslims in the West are about to attack gays, Jews and women openly and thus go to prison (well, most of them) 

Yes, we have laws and police to address that, regardless of the perpetrators' religion or lack of. 

1 hour ago, Argus said:

And those religion based social values are diametrically opposed to ours. Fear of this, of large numbers of people settling here who are wedded to their religious values and will not assimilate because of that, are what is at the heart of rising anti-immigration sentiment.

I don't know what you mean by 'our' values. I don't think all Canadians share the same values. I don't think I share many with you, for example. 

[jacee]

59 minutes ago, Donnie said:

I agree.  So how are homosexuals right to live, the most important human right,  less important the right of Muslims to practice Islam?

The Laws in Islamic Nations makes it a capital crime to put Homosexuals to death.  This is a law of Islamic nations.  Since you support the practice of Islam within the law.  You support this law?

 

That isn't the law here.

Sidebar: It cracks me up that the extreme right in Canada, who consistently and vehemently opposed women's rights, same sex rights, and all rights for anyone but heterosexual white men, are now positioning themselves as the great defenders of equal human rights ... except for Muslims. You guys are hilarious!! 

Edited March 19, 2019 by jacee

[Donnie]

26 minutes ago, jacee said:

That isn't the law here.

Sidebar: It cracks me up that the extreme right in Canada, who consistently and vehemently opposed women's rights, same sex...

Answer my question please.   Dont change the subject. Dont make false arguments and strawmen.

Please answer my question.

Sidebar: Please provide quotes of me opposing those things please.  Otherwise admit here that I never said those slanderous things.  

Thank you.

[DogOnPorch]

1 hour ago, jacee said:

That isn't the law here.

Sidebar: It cracks me up that the extreme right in Canada, who consistently and vehemently opposed women's rights, same sex rights, and all rights for anyone but heterosexual white men, are now positioning themselves as the great defenders of equal human rights ... except for Muslims. You guys are hilarious!! 

 

Islam is a skin colour to you. It's a religion in reality. But you and reality are not friends...

[marcus]

3 hours ago, Argus said:

That doesn't mean Muslims in the West are about to attack gays, Jews and women openly and thus go to prison (well, most of them) but as numbers grow in Western countries demands will grow for accommodation towards their social and religious values. 

I disagree with that thought.

Most children who grow up in Canada, will have a different perspective and view of most things when compared to their parents. I see this happening with my children's classmates who are immigrants or children of immigrants. Unless totally isolated, the natural tendency is for following generations to change the way their outlook is. This isn't unique to children of immigrants. You see this with children of xenophobes. As the children of xenophobes grow up around "the others", in most cases, they experience and learn something beyond their parent(s) did and will not have the same fear of the unknown.

[egghead]

41 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said:

 

Islam is a skin colour to you. It's a religion in reality. But you and reality are not friends...

haha, it is very hard for the lefties to understand that.

"Multireligionism" will never work in the western world because Muslims in middle east are not your western declawed Muslims. It has nothing to do with right / left / liberal / conservative

[egghead]

18 minutes ago, marcus said:

I disagree with that thought.

Most children who grow up in Canada, will have a different perspective and view of most things when compared to their parents. I see this happening with my children's classmates who are immigrants or children of immigrants. Unless totally isolated, the natural tendency is for following generations to change the way their outlook is. This isn't unique to children of immigrants. You see this with children of xenophobes. As the children of xenophobes grow up around "the others", in most cases, they experience and learn something beyond their parent(s) did and will not have the same fear of the unknown.

Don't think all of them will turn out to completely embrace western social values; just look at Michael Zehaf-Bibeau, Shamima Begum ...., even Ilhan Omar 

[DogOnPorch]

24 minutes ago, egghead said:

haha, it is very hard for the lefties to understand that.

"Multireligionism" will never work in the western world because Muslims in middle east are not your western declawed Muslims. It has nothing to do with right / left / liberal / conservative

 

Some women prefer men telling them what to do and wear, etc. She's just one example.

 

[marcus]

1 hour ago, egghead said:

Don't think all of them will turn out to completely embrace western social values; just look at Michael Zehaf-Bibeau, Shamima Begum ...., even Ilhan Omar 

By that statement, I don't think you know much about the individuals. Michael Zehaf-Bibeau, for example, grew up in a non-religious home, which included his white, Canadian mother. Just like the Quebec mosque shooter, Alexandre Bissonnette, Zehaf-Beau is a demonstration of mental health and social disconnection. They committed the worst act a human can do; Which is to deliberately take the life of an innocent person. This is something only the weak-minded can commit. Fortunately, the overwhelming majority of people are not wired that way. 

[Saudi Monitor]

12 hours ago, Goddess said:

Thank you for finally admitting that.

For normal people, vengeance never gets past the fantasy stage because our rational minds and moral compasses kick in.  And the fear of violent reprisal generally gives pause to vengeance-taking.

Islam is an example of what happens when a religion highjacks the rational mind and the moral compass is no longer pointing due North and violent reprisal is mandated in its teachings.

I've said before - the difference between Christianity and Islam is that very thing - Christianity is afraid to die.  Islam is not.  Martyrdom and vengeance-taking are a very large part of the religion.  

The effectiveness of revenge depends on your beliefs about whether it works.  And for Islam, it works.

Unless we are willing to cave into Islam's demands, like Britain did when it refused to accept Asia Bibi as a refugee due to a well-founded fear of violent Muslim reprisal, then the world is in for a tough time.  We are in for a tough time either way - whether we cave in to their demands or not.  So for that reason - I'm all for not caving in to their demands.

You don't understand the mindset of these terrorist.

When a Western country goes to endless global war's and invades countless of countries,  resulting in the deaths of millions of people, men, women and children in the name of Democracy, no one is held to account or to apologise.

Then, these terrorists would horrendously, un-islamicly and wrongly lash out on civilians collectively, because they actually believe that Democracies are ruled by their people, and thus they hold civilians responsible for having been guilty of ordering wars in other lands, when democracy doesn’t actually represent the will of its people.

Unfortunately, when these terror's attack occurs, Western media, pundits and public opinion, hold Muslims under a collective responsibility and no one is innocent until they apologise.

 

 

Edited March 19, 2019 by Saudi Monitor

[Saudi Monitor]

11 hours ago, Donnie said:

@jacee

Women are not treated equally in Islam.  Basically have few rights within Islam.

 

 Islam grants fundamental equality and liberates women from the exploitative unjust system of secular liberalism and capitalism.

 “I do not waste the deed of any doer among you, be they male or female. The one of you is as the other” (Quran 3:195)

 “And women shall have rights similar to the rights against them, according to what is equitable” (2:228)

A man asked the Prophet (saw): What do you say (command) about our wives? He replied: “Give them food what you have for yourself, and clothe them by which you clothe yourself, and do not beat them, and do not insult them.”

 

Edited March 19, 2019 by Saudi Monitor

[Donnie]

2 hours ago, Saudi Monitor said:

 Islam grants fundamental equality and liberates women from the exploitative unjust system of secular liberalism and capitalism.

 “I do not waste the deed of any doer among you, be they male or female. The one of you is as the other” (Quran 3:195)

 “And women shall have rights similar to the rights against them, according to what is equitable” (2:228)

A man asked the Prophet (saw): What do you say (command) about our wives? He replied: “Give them food what you have for yourself, and clothe them by which you clothe yourself, and do not beat them, and do not insult them.”

 

Never argue from a position of authority  as most people do not care about anyones holy book.  I care more about what people do.  

I can provide nearly countless examples  of women who were arrested after being raped in Islamic countries.

 

Women can't even drive in Saudi Arabia.   Sounds like a bastion of freedom 

[egghead]

6 hours ago, marcus said:

By that statement, I don't think you know much about the individuals. Michael Zehaf-Bibeau, for example, grew up in a non-religious home, which included his white, Canadian mother. Just like the Quebec mosque shooter, Alexandre Bissonnette, Zehaf-Beau is a demonstration of mental health and social disconnection. They committed the worst act a human can do; Which is to deliberately take the life of an innocent person. This is something only the weak-minded can commit. Fortunately, the overwhelming majority of people are not wired that way. 

You are right. I do not know them very much. However, it did show that teens may or may not have different perspective and view of most things when compared to their parents 

BTW, wiki told this

"Zehaf-Bibeau grew up in Eastern Canada, including Ottawa and Montreal.[66] His mother is Susan Bibeau, a French-Canadian Quebecer from Montreal and deputy chairperson of a division of Canada's Immigration and Refugee Board. His father is a businessman, Bulgasem Zehaf,[67][68] a Libyan immigrant to Quebec who opened the Tripoli café in Montreal. Zehaf is reported to have fought in the 2011 Libyan Civil War;[67][66] the Washington Times reported that Mr. Zehaf had returned to his hometown of Zawiyah in Libya to join the uprising against the Muammar Gaddafi regime. The couple split up before Zehaf-Bibeau's birth, but reconciled a short while after and were married.[57] Zehaf and Bibeau divorced in 1999.[67] After the divorce, Zehaf-Bibeau was removed from a private school with strict discipline and put in a secondary school known for pupils fighting with other students from local schools.[69] Zehaf-Bibeau continued to live in the Montreal area until 2007, when he spent time in Libya before moving to Western Canada to become a miner and labourer..."