Jerusalem is Israel's Capital...

[Hudson Jones]

4 hours ago, Rue said:

I am calling this individual out again as an absolute falsehood. There was never any offer by any Palestinian let alone the Arab League to recognize Israel as a Jewish state with ANY borders of any kind.

This is precisely why he provides no sources. He has fabricated an out and out falsehood.

Its time this bullshit came to an end.

Seriously?

You type so much about the topic and you don't know about the basic stuff like the Arab League proposal called the Arab Peace Initiative?

Straight outta Wikipedia - Read and learn before you start typing:

The Arab Peace Initiative (Arabic: مبادرة السلام العربية‎), also known as the "Saudi Initiative", is a 10 sentence proposal for an end to the Arab–Israeli conflict that was endorsed by the Arab League in 2002 at the Beirut Summit and re-endorsed at the 2007 Arab League summit and at the 2017 Arab League summit.^[1] The initiative calls for normalizing relations between the Arab region and Israel, in exchange for a full withdrawal by Israel from the occupied territories (including East Jerusalem) and a "just settlement" of the Palestinian refugee problem based on UN Resolution 194. The Initiative was initially overshadowed by the Passover Massacre, a major terrorist attack that took place on March 27, 2002, the day before the Initiative was published.^[2]

The Israeli government under Ariel Sharon rejected the initiative as a "non-starter".^[3] Sharon said the new plan could not be accepted because it would replace UN resolutions 242 and 338, which called for bilateral negotiations.^[4] After the renewed Arab League endorsement in 2007, then-Prime Minister Ehud Olmert gave a cautious welcome to the plan.^[5] In 2009, President Shimon Peres expressed satisfaction at the "u-turn" in the attitudes of Arab states toward peace with Israel as reflected in the Saudi initiative, though he did qualify his comments by saying: "Israel wasn't a partner to the wording of this initiative. Therefore it doesn't have to agree to every word."^

More recently, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has expressed tentative support for the initiative, saying he accepts the "general idea" with significant caveats, specifically its calls for Israel to withdraw from the Golan Heights and accept the relocation of millions of Palestinian refugees into Israel.^[6]

The Palestinian Authority led by Yasser Arafat immediately embraced the initiative.^[7] His successor Mahmoud Abbas also supported the plan and officially asked U.S. President Barack Obama to adopt it as part of his Middle East policy.^[8] Islamist political party Hamas, the elected government of the Gaza Strip, is deeply divided,^[9]with most factions rejecting the plan.

[Hudson Jones]

4 hours ago, Rue said:

Abbas never made an offer to recognize Israel as a Jewish state.

How come you Zionists keep moving the goal post? You always have an excuse not to go forward. You always want a conflict.

It was never about "recognizing Israel as a "Jewish" State.

It's about recognizing the State of Israel. 

[eyeball]

19 minutes ago, Hudson Jones said:

How come you Zionists keep moving the goal post?

To make it impossible to score a single point - to make it fairer in other words.

[dre]

14 minutes ago, eyeball said:

To make it impossible to score a single point - to make it fairer in other words.

Here's a bit of history about the "jewish state" demand. It has never been a pre-requisite to peace until 2007. In fact before then it was never even MENTIONED by Israel in negotiations with ANY of its Arab neighbors, including Egypt and Jordan.

Its just a blatant attempt to make a two state solution even less possible, and to make sure Conflict: Dirtfarm Holyland continues as per status quo.

[Bonam]

7 hours ago, Hudson Jones said:

More recently, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has expressed tentative support for the initiative, saying he accepts the "general idea" with significant caveats, specifically its calls for Israel to withdraw from the Golan Heights and accept the relocation of millions of Palestinian refugees into Israel.^[6]

That is, it calls for Israel to commit suicide. And you need to ask why Israel would not accept this so called "peace initiative"? 

[GostHacked]

6 hours ago, Bonam said:

That is, it calls for Israel to commit suicide. And you need to ask why Israel would not accept this so called "peace initiative"? 

Removing the illegal settlements and going back to Israel proper won't cause Israel to commit suicide. With the amount of monetary and military support Israel gets from the US, they have a huge advantage over everyone else.  I will use the previous wars/battles where Israel has won every single time. So no, they are no where close to committing suicide. Preposterous notion really.

[Argus]

11 hours ago, GostHacked said:

Removing the illegal settlements and going back to Israel proper won't cause Israel to commit suicide.

Allowing millions of Palestinians to become Israeli citizens would.

Edited December 21, 2017 by Argus

[Argus]

On ‎12‎/‎19‎/‎2017 at 3:57 PM, GostHacked said:

Interesting notion of taking away from someone else to give to them. Was that not how Israel was created?

What was taken away from someone else? The UN decided to end the British mandate of the Palestine territory and divide it into a Jewish run state and a Muslim run state. Those Muslims who lived in the Jewish run state and stayed there became citizens of Israel and kept their land and property.

Perhaps you were thinking about the 850,000 Jews whose land was confiscated and who were expelled from Arab countries?

[SpankyMcFarland]

On 2017-12-19 at 3:05 PM, Rue said:

Saudi Arabia is the caretaker of all Muslims and the holiest of its cities Mecca. This means it can do nothing ever to acknowledge Israel as a Jewish state. From a practical perspective it may have interests that at times coincide with Israel's in regards to Iran but it finances extremist Sunni Muslims who detest Israel as much as they detest Iran.

Saudi Arabia is no friend of Israel and never was. Its a your enemy is my enemy aquaintance.

Friend and acquaintance are difficult terms to distinguish when applied to countries.   

However one wishes to describe it, the Saudis and Israelis do appear to have a definite convergence of interests at the moment:

http://m.jpost.com/Israel-News/Inside-The-Prospective-Israel-Saudi-Arabia-Rapprochement-515801

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/11/covert-israeli-saudi-arabia-relations-171120142229835.html

 

 

 

 

[SpankyMcFarland]

On 2017-12-19 at 2:42 PM, Rue said:

And you think the Saudis are a credible party with no vested interest in what the outcome should be? Even the Saudis? Right.

Also there is no internal US political move. Trump is sticking to a campaign pledge. As well his offer does not rule out a Palestinian capital in Jerusalem.

A campaign pledge is, by definition, internal politics. He didn’t make this campaign pledge to Europe or the Arab world. 

[SpankyMcFarland]

On 2017-12-19 at 3:10 PM, Rue said:

You stated and I quote:

"All tribes celebrate their warriors. We do. The Israelis do."

Stop denying the bullshit you stated. Israelis  don't celebrate war and therefore their warriors. You have no clue about Israeli culture and what it in fact celebrates and what it shuns.

Israel doesn't celebrate warriors. It celebrates the will to be free and overcome those who would deny Jews the right of existence. It does not hero worship its soldiers. You'd know that if you had lived or spoke to an Israeli. You never have-you assume.

Israeli soldiers do not welcome attention or personality cults and they shun them. In fact Moishe Dayan and  Ariel Sharon were openly criticized for their egos by all sides in a non political and distinctly military way. There is no bravado, macho code with an Israeli soldier. There's ho hero worship or celebration of warriors. Everyone in Israel is drafted and serves from 18 to 60.

That's nothing to celebrate. Its a burden, a bloody burden no one in Israel wants but must carry.

 

 

I was using ‘celebrate’ there as a transitive verb, as in to praise or honour publicly,  not singing or dancing.  

https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/celebrate

https://www.macmillandictionary.com/dictionary/british/celebrate

Also note that I was referring to all soldiers of the world, not just Israeli soldiers. It’s unlikely I would have intended to insult my own country’s soldiers. 

 

 

Edited December 21, 2017 by SpankyMcFarland

[GostHacked]

14 hours ago, Argus said:

Allowing millions of Palestinians to become Israeli citizens would.

So Israel is screwed either way. Well, can only blame them for putting themselves into that situation. 

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/un-vote-us-jerusalem-canada-1.4459354

There is a lot of push back taking place. And I believe for good reason.

14 hours ago, Argus said:

What was taken away from someone else? The UN decided to end the British mandate of the Palestine territory and divide it into a Jewish run state and a Muslim run state. Those Muslims who lived in the Jewish run state and stayed there became citizens of Israel and kept their land and property.

Perhaps you were thinking about the 850,000 Jews whose land was confiscated and who were expelled from Arab countries?

That was ancient history my man. They need to get over it. Kind of like Israel telling the Palestinians to get over it.

[eyeball]

8 minutes ago, GostHacked said:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/un-vote-us-jerusalem-canada-1.4459354

There is a lot of push back taking place. And I believe for good reason.

From the article...

Quote

The U.S., bracing for what is likely to be a near-unanimous rejection of its policy, took the highly undiplomatic step of warning other countries not to vote against it.

So, a counter BDS of sorts. Excellent, more US isolationism.

I'm reminded of the many times I've suggested Canada suspend trade with countries that insist on wheeling and dealing with dictators and other rogue nations.  Here the US is doing the same thing in reverse.

And we've abstained from committing either way...

[GostHacked]

The UN voted 128-9 condemning the US's move to recognize Jerusalem as Israel's capital. Now really it won't amount to anything and the US will do what they want, but the way the US wants to push back on nations who voted against is going to be even more problematic for both the US and Israel.

It's a bold move Cotton, lete's see how it plays out!

[Bonam]

8 hours ago, GostHacked said:

The UN voted 128-9 condemning the US's move to recognize Jerusalem as Israel's capital. Now really it won't amount to anything and the US will do what they want, but the way the US wants to push back on nations who voted against is going to be even more problematic for both the US and Israel.

Seems reasonable to me. Why should the US keep footing the bill for a fancy club for third world dictators to sit around and discuss how much they dislike the US and Israel in? 

[Michael Hardner]

5 hours ago, Bonam said:

Seems reasonable to me. Why should the US keep footing the bill for a fancy club for third world dictators to sit around and discuss how much they dislike the US and Israel in? 

$8B to the UN

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2015/06/16/america-pay-way-too-much-for-united-nations.html

$3.8B to Israel

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2016/09/14/united-states-military-aid-israel/90358564/

And of course the devil is in the details.  The US helped found the UN as a combination of self-interest and altruism.  Read Kissinger's book to get more background.  

[Argus]

2 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

And of course the devil is in the details.  The US helped found the UN as a combination of self-interest and altruism.  Read Kissinger's book to get more background.  

Yes, but the UN then was not what it is now. There were 51 original members, most of them western nations or nations the US had huge influence over, in central and south America or Asia. There are now 193 members of the United Nations, 57 Muslim nations alone (who invariably vote as a block). Most of the rest sell their votes to whoever wants them on issues which don't directly affect them. And almost all are dictatorships of one sort or another.

[eyeball]

29 minutes ago, Argus said:

Yes, but the UN then was not what it is now.

Nor is America what it once was.  It also needs to reiterated that most of the dictatorships in the UN can thank the US for backing their rise and maintenance of power.

US Provides Military Assistance to 73 Percent of the World’s Dictatorships

[Michael Hardner]

1 hour ago, Argus said:

Yes, but the UN then was not what it is now. ... And almost all are dictatorships of one sort or another.

Sounds like we agree that these things must change before the UN adopts the ability to pass binding resolutions.

[marcus]

Trump could be the best thing to happen to the Palestinians since he is so blatantly pushing the Zionist agenda. Whatever Trump supports and pushes for receives the Trump Stain. The majority come together and rally against it.

[Argus]

2 hours ago, marcus said:

Trump could be the best thing to happen to the Palestinians since he is so blatantly pushing the Zionist agenda. Whatever Trump supports and pushes for receives the Trump Stain. The majority come together and rally against it.

A majority of dictators selling their votes to the Islamic bloc because they don't give a damn. You think any of them are going to take over funding the Palestinian government? How much you think China, India and Russia contribute? Something on the order of a big fat zip, right? Think that'll change? I doubt it.

Edited December 22, 2017 by Argus

[Hudson Jones]

On 12/19/2017 at 10:53 PM, Bonam said:

That is, it calls for Israel to commit suicide. And you need to ask why Israel would not accept this so called "peace initiative"? 

That's what negotiations are all about. From what most of the talks have shown, the Palestinians have accepted that the Palestinians who were driven out of what is now Israel, by the Israeli army and terrorist groups, will not be returning. Except there would be some form of monetary compensation and land.

 

[Hudson Jones]

16 hours ago, Bonam said:

Seems reasonable to me. Why should the US keep footing the bill for a fancy club for third world dictators to sit around and discuss how much they dislike the US and Israel in? 

Agreed. Why should the US taxpayers pay anything to Egypt, Jordan and Israel? The welfare cheques need to be cut off.

[GostHacked]

16 hours ago, Bonam said:

Seems reasonable to me. Why should the US keep footing the bill for a fancy club for third world dictators to sit around and discuss how much they dislike the US and Israel in? 

A very large majority of nations are condemning the move. Typically that would be seen as world democracy at work. One can agree that the push against North Korea is a good thing. Even though they might not think so. But they are in the minority there, as the US/Israel are on this matter.  So is it a problem with the majority when it seems like over 80% voted the same way? Or should the minority rethink their stance?  I guess we are gonna find out.

 

[Bonam]

2 hours ago, Hudson Jones said:

That's what negotiations are all about. From what most of the talks have shown, the Palestinians have accepted that the Palestinians who were driven out of what is now Israel, by the Israeli army and terrorist groups, will not be returning. Except there would be some form of monetary compensation and land.

My impression was the issue of Palestinians returning to Israel was a big part of why Abbas chickened out at the last moment from making a deal with Olmert. He got a lot of criticism from various Palestinian factions, particularly those living abroad (not in the West Bank or Gaza but in Lebanon and Jordan and Europe), criticizing him for bargaining away their "right of return" to Israel, since they didn't feel like Abbas represents their interests. Even if the PA, in principle, agrees to not have any Palestinians return to Israel proper, I think Israel now fears that much of the international community will continue to apply pressure on Israel to accept Palestinians back from the camps that they have been kept in in Lebanon and elsewhere. And that is of course a dealbreaker for Israel. 

I agree that negotiations are, abstractly, the answer. But there are just so many different Palestinian factions now... the PA, Hamas, Palestinians living in Europe who now get their new home countries to pressure and criticize Israel, Palestinians living in camps in Lebanon who have their own leaders and interests, etc. All of these factions have different interests, and even if at times it seems like one might be reasonable enough to strike a plausible deal with Israel, others are at that point in time less amenable. I suspect this is part of the reason why the current Israeli government has had little interest in negotiations.. there is no one, really, to negotiate with. Palestinians first have to solve their internal divisions and come to an agreement about a single individual/group by whose terms all their factions will abide, before they can really negotiate with Israel again meaningfully. 

Edited December 23, 2017 by Bonam