Jerusalem is Israel's Capital...

[Argus]

On ‎12‎/‎26‎/‎2017 at 3:50 PM, SpankyMcFarland said:

Two wrongs and all that. Post WWII we no longer endorse the might is right concept for changing borders. 

But we don't protest much if the people changing borders are Russians. Btw, anyone seen South Vietnam lately? It seems to have disappeared.

Edited December 27, 2017 by Argus

[CITIZEN_2015]

1 hour ago, Argus said:

I only somewhat agree. Russia and China are the implacable enemies of the West and thus of the US, so they can be expected to oppose everything the US does just for spite, unless they see it as being in their interests. Western Europe is free at the moment only because of American strength, and because while they play and enjoy idle lives the US taxpayer pays for a military which keeps them free. If the US were to disappear tomorrow Russia would be in charge within a year. The spineless and inept governments of western Europe would not lift a finger to stop them. Many of the other nations on Earth depend on American largesse to varying degrees. So I can see how the US would see it as a betrayal, for them to vote with their enemies on where the US embassy should be located (which is really no one's business but theirs anyway).

While I acknowledge the positive role Americans have played in the past (and likely present) to protect Europe from Soviet take over (and Nazi Germany before that) and communist take over and many other positive contributions to the world including aiding poor nations with food and advances in science , medicine and technologies for which Americans (and immigrants to America) played dominant roles however, to be fair and unbiased which I hope you are too, the American governments and military and CIA have also committed atrocities in the world as examples mass crimes in Vietnam, undemocratic military coups in South/central America, Iran, support for corrupt military diictators who committed mass crimes against their own people and even at present as we speak supporting the most stinky corrupt regimes like the one in Saudi Arabia and stinky Arab Shieks and criminal acts by the state of Israel.

Edited December 27, 2017 by CITIZEN_2015

[Argus]

3 minutes ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

While I acknowledge the positive role American have played in the past (and likely present) to protect Europe from Soviet take over (and Nazi Germany before that) and communist take over and many other positive contributions to the world including aiding poor nations with food and advances in science , medicine and technologies for which Americans (and immigrants to America) played dominant roles however, to be fair and unbiased which I hope you are too, the American governments and military and CIA have also committed atrocities in the world as examples mass crimes in Vietnam, undemocratic military coups in South/central America, Iran, support for corrupt military diictators who committed mass crimes against their own people and even at present as we speak supporting the most stinky corrupt regimes like the one in Saudi Arabia and stinky Arab Shieks and criminal acts by the state of Israel.

The game of nations is never pretty. The US supported a nasty regime in South Vietnam. The Russians and Chinese supported an even nastier regime in North Vietnam and now present day Vietnam. They also support an incurably evil regime in North Korea. In fact, they put it in place to begin with. Western nations support the Saudis because they need the oil. It's self interest. No one pretends any of them are paragons of virtue. No one pretends the US has not done some shitty things. Anyone has the right to criticize them for those shitty things. But really, a lot of nations are like teenagers whose food, clothing and shelter is taken care of by dad and mom, criticizing dad and mom because they don't live up to the teenager's standard of behavior. Hey, get out and support yourself, then criticize.

 

[CITIZEN_2015]

54 minutes ago, Argus said:

The game of nations is never pretty. The US supported a nasty regime in South Vietnam. The Russians and Chinese supported an even nastier regime in North Vietnam and now present day Vietnam. They also support an incurably evil regime in North Korea. In fact, they put it in place to begin with. Western nations support the Saudis because they need the oil. It's self interest. No one pretends any of them are paragons of virtue. No one pretends the US has not done some shitty things. Anyone has the right to criticize them for those shitty things. But really, a lot of nations are like teenagers whose food, clothing and shelter is taken care of by dad and mom, criticizing dad and mom because they don't live up to the teenager's standard of behavior. Hey, get out and support yourself, then criticize.

 

Yes the Russians and Chinese did so and still do as you said very shitty things in past and present and nobody denies that but I thought tha US was holding a higher or better standards than those commu-fascist regimes in Soviet/Russia and China I guess i was wrong.

It reminds me of a debate I had with a girl from Russia who was a tourist in Athens Greece two years ago. She was very nationalist defending the Russian intervention in Ukraine!!. Our discussion extended to World War II and I said that Russians are violent and nasty because when they captured Germany they raped many innocent defenseless German civilians. She defended their actions by saying that German soldiers did the same to defenseless innocent Russian girls when they captured Russian territories. And my answer was Yes BUT they were Nazis and atrocities expected of them but Russians by their actions proved to the world that they are as bad as Nazis!!!. She froze and had no response to it.  You are saying the same thing. While acknowledging American crimes you try to justify them by saying that Russinas and Chinese did the same!!!!. Yes it was expected of them but not expected from a so called defender of world democracy and Europe!!!!.

Edited December 27, 2017 by CITIZEN_2015

[SpankyMcFarland]

2 hours ago, jbg said:That seems only to be true when the Joooos are the issue. Other situations not so much:

1. Russia took East Kuriles from Japan
2. North Vietnam took over South Vietnam
3. East Timor
4. Nigeria wouldn't let Biafra go, and instigated a famine in the process;
5. Argentina invaded Falklands
6. Iran subverts Yemen
7. What about the Kurds?

The Jooos? So I’m a racist because I disagree with you? Very PC. Am I on record supporting any of these wars? Such a bizarre mixed bag of different situations. In general, I’m a secessionist - if it can be arranged with a proper vote a la Scotland - so you’re not going to get some massive defence of the nation state from me. The first one doesn’t merit comment. I would have been somewhat in favour of the South Vietnamese regime but it was no shining beacon of justice and due process. Regarding Biafra, it was legally part of Nigeria and you’ll find many people on sites like this (not me) who deplore secession in any form. Argentina, the UK and the Falklands/Malvinas situation was ‘two bald men fighting over a comb’ but the Argies started it. A democratic Argentinian govt will never attempt that again. Yemen was kinda subverted before Iran ever appeared on the scene and has been in trouble since the Brits were in Aden. North and South should never have united and the Houthis have basically confirmed that. East Timor did get its freedom eventually. What about the Kurds? Am I an enemy of theirs too? I’d like to see them get a state but Turkey, Iran, Iraq, Syria, Russia AND the US disagree with me so what can I or they do? 

 

[SpankyMcFarland]

1 hour ago, Argus said:

But we don't protest much if the people changing borders are Russians. Btw, anyone seen South Vietnam lately? It seems to have disappeared.

Actually, I deplore Russia keeping its border in Chechnya. Lord knows how many they murdered there to stop independence which is part of a time honoured tradition in that country where they are keen to protect the rights of ethnic Russians in other countries in the West but are blind to the rights of their own ethnic minorities. 

I think the Ukrainians should let Crimea and the eastern provinces go. The inhabitants can regret their decision at their leisure. 

[SpankyMcFarland]

1 hour ago, Argus said:

I only somewhat agree. Russia and China are the implacable enemies of the West and thus of the US, so they can be expected to oppose everything the US does just for spite, unless they see it as being in their interests. Western Europe is free at the moment only because of American strength, and because while they play and enjoy idle lives the US taxpayer pays for a military which keeps them free. If the US were to disappear tomorrow Russia would be in charge within a year. The spineless and inept governments of western Europe would not lift a finger to stop them. Many of the other nations on Earth depend on American largesse to varying degrees. So I can see how the US would see it as a betrayal, for them to vote with their enemies on where the US embassy should be located (which is really no one's business but theirs anyway).

The embassy’s location in Jerusalem is hardly a typical, routine internal US matter given the decades of negotiations that the US has been involved in on the status of Jerusalem. The Europeans are standing by a principle that such decisions should not be made unilaterally. Their allance with the US does not mean they have to behave like Warsaw Pact vassal states when the US does something very odd in another part of the world. This is capitulation, not negotiation. 

Russia’s recent history has been tragic. There’s no reason that country couldn’t be as prosperous as Canada if it had kept up with democratic reform instead of lapsing into autocracy and paranoia. But even the Russians and Chinese voted with the US on North Korea at the UN recently. There is scope for some cooperation. 

Edited December 27, 2017 by SpankyMcFarland

[bush_cheney2004]

57 minutes ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

The embassy’s location in Jerusalem is hardly a typical, routine internal US matter given the decades of negotiations that the US has been involved in on the status of Jerusalem. The Europeans are standing by a principle that such decisions should not be made unilaterally.

 

Yes it is...as U.S. federal law was specifically passed to recognize Jerusalem as the capital of Israel...over 20 years ago.

...because it is.

[Argus]

2 hours ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

Yes the Russians and Chinese did so and still do as you said very shitty things in past and present and nobody denies that but I thought tha US was holding a higher or better standards than those commu-fascist regimes in Soviet/Russia and China I guess i was wrong.

When the US supports a nation as evil as North Korea you can say they're as bad. When the US imprisons tens of thousands of its own people for opposition to the government, or even protesting injustice, you will have a point. When the US invades and occupies someone else's territory and annexes it to their own, you will have a point. People criticize the US all the time, for real or imagined injustices in the world. Who criticizes the Russians or Chinese? If the US president - never mind this one any US president - lands in a European capital, will he get mobs of protests? Will the Russian or Chinese president get as many?

2 hours ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

 You are saying the same thing. While acknowledging American crimes you try to justify them by saying that Russinas and Chinese did the same!!!!.

No, the Russians and Chinese are STILL doing the same and worse and have never done anything good to balance that out. That is a large chunk of the difference right there.

[Argus]

1 hour ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

The embassy’s location in Jerusalem is hardly a typical, routine internal US matter given the decades of negotiations that the US has been involved in on the status of Jerusalem. The Europeans are standing by a principle that such decisions should not be made unilaterally. Their allance with the US does not mean they have to behave like Warsaw Pact vassal

A decision on where to locate your embassy is not one that is to be taken unilaterally?

[CITIZEN_2015]

37 minutes ago, Argus said:

When the US supports a nation as evil as North Korea you can say they're as bad. When the US imprisons tens of thousands of its own people for opposition to the government, or even protesting injustice, you will have a point. When the US invades and occupies someone else's territory and annexes it to their own, you will have a point. People criticize the US all the time, for real or imagined injustices in the world. Who criticizes the Russians or Chinese? If the US president - never mind this one any US president - lands in a European capital, will he get mobs of protests? Will the Russian or Chinese president get as many?

No, the Russians and Chinese are STILL doing the same and worse and have never done anything good to balance that out. That is a large chunk of the difference right there.

Then who supported Pinochet of Chile and other mass criminal military Junta all over the world for decades? There were as bad as North Korea. And what about US invading Vietnam and Iraq as a result many hyndreds of thousands were killed, though I supported the latter invasion myself to remove the butcher of the century (Saddam) but yet another example to consider that US invades too. Yes Saudi Arabia as stinky as Nort Korea and Israel as criminal both supported by US as we speak. Btw, read my post. I have been attacking Russians all the time for the past mass crimes (in Eastern Europe, Afghanisttan, Chechnia, and many other examples) because I am fair and unbiased in my assessments. No I can't think of anything good the Russians and Chines have done to balance the evil deeds but Americans have as I mentioned in my earlier post. Again because I am fair in my judgements.

[bush_cheney2004]

10 minutes ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

 And what about US invading Vietnam ...

 

The U.S. did not invade South Vietnam any more than the U.S. invaded France on D-Day.

Canada and other allies were directly complicit in U.S. "atrocities" during both world wars because they aligned with British Empire imperialist interests.

Accordingly, the U.S. will continue to support the State of Israel.

[CITIZEN_2015]

1 hour ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

The U.S. did not invade South Vietnam any more than the U.S. invaded France on D-Day.

Canada and other allies were directly complicit in U.S. "atrocities" during both world wars because they aligned with British Empire imperialist interests.

Accordingly, the U.S. will continue to support the State of Israel.

They (the US) rigged the so called election and when the Vietnamese nation rose up against the corrupt US puppet regime then Americans send troops to defend the corrupt South Vietnamese regime and commited years of atrocities and murderous compaign against defenseless women and children in both North and South Vietnam,. This is hardly same as invasion to liberate France from Nazi occupation and did not result in hundreds of thousands of French civilian deaths by American invasion. You are as usual extremely biased to the degree of total nonsense. 

Yes indeed such criminal and evil state (US) must support the state of Israel. It is totally understandable. Criminals always support each other.

Edited December 28, 2017 by CITIZEN_2015

[Argus]

13 minutes ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

They rigged the so called election and when the Vietnamese nation rose up against the corrupt US puppet regime then Americans send trrops to defend the corrupt South Vietnamese regime and commited years of atrocities and murderous compaign against defenseless women and children in both North and South Vietnam,. Yes indeed such  criminal state must support the state of Israel. It is totally understandable. Criminals always support each other.

The problem with this sort of indignant moral rant is its very nearly intellectually bankrupt. You can say what you want about the South Vietnamese regime, but it was still EONS better than the North Vietnamese. All the sniveling progressives who documented every human rights violations the South made completely ignored what the North was doing. Hell, Jane Fonda went to visit North Vietnam, congratulated them and sat in the firing seat of an anti-aircraft gun!

By this same intellectual mush we should have abandoned South Korea because it was then a nasty dictatorship, and allowed its people to embrace the wondrous freedom of the family. It was not 'criminal' to defend the south from the north in either event. It was criminal to support the North, however. By any standard of morality.

Does anyone care to examine what decades of American troops and protection have made of South Korea (not to mention Japan) vs what the Chinese and Russians have made of North Korea? That should tell you all you need to know.

Edited December 28, 2017 by Argus

[CITIZEN_2015]

7 hours ago, Argus said:

The problem with this sort of indignant moral rant is its very nearly intellectually bankrupt. You can say what you want about the South Vietnamese regime, but it was still EONS better than the North Vietnamese. All the sniveling progressives who documented every human rights violations the South made completely ignored what the North was doing. Hell, Jane Fonda went to visit North Vietnam, congratulated them and sat in the firing seat of an anti-aircraft gun!

By this same intellectual mush we should have abandoned South Korea because it was then a nasty dictatorship, and allowed its people to embrace the wondrous freedom of the family. It was not 'criminal' to defend the south from the north in either event. It was criminal to support the North, however. By any standard of morality.

It shows your lack of knowledge about Vietnam and the war. They are fiercely independent nation. They fought against the French and then the US and came out victorious after decades of sacrifices. The South Vietnamese regime had no base support among the South Vietnamese people. Viet cong was mostly the South Vietnamese people who fought alongside North Vietnamese army to liberate their country from the US puppet regime. Yes North Vietnamese regime was also brutal afterall it was a communist state but it had widespread support and that was why eventually after making many sacrifices they won the war against the powerful US. The US grabbed anything in rush and ran off like cowards leaving their puppets and equipement behind in a disgraceful manner we all witnessed.

The mass bombings of purposely targetted civilians, the executions, the mass murder of villagers and many other atrocities the US army committed was not criminal and moraly right??. Do you realize what you are saying?

https://www.britannica.com/event/My-Lai-Massacre

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phong_Nhị_and_Phong_Nhất_massacre

Edited December 28, 2017 by CITIZEN_2015

[Argus]

13 minutes ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

It shows your lack of knowledge about Vietnam and the war. They are fiercely independent nation. They fought against the French and then the US and came out victorious after decades of sacrifices. The South Vietnamese regime had no base support among the South Vietnamese people. Viet cong was mostly the South Vietnamese people who fought alongside North Vietnamese army to liberate their country from the US puppet regime.

The Viet Cong were pretty much wiped out during the Tet Offensive. It wasn't they who conquered South Vietnam, but the North Vietnamese army.

Yes, My-Lai was properly documented. The dozens if not hundreds of similar atrocities perpetrated by the North Vietnamese did not bring court martials but medals and promotions for those involved. That is another difference you are not acknowledging.

Quote

Yes North Vietnamese regime was also brutal afterall it was a communist state but it had widespread support

How do you know it had widespread support? Because its people say so? You realize that anyone who said otherwise would be executed, right? Do you think North Korea's government also has widespread support?

South Korea is a wealthy, thriving democracy now, and so is Japan. Vietnam is still a shithole with zero human rights. What did America do for West Germany vs what the Russians did for East Germany?

Edited December 28, 2017 by Argus

[CITIZEN_2015]

As I said they won the war against the powerful US of A with all their superior planes and ships and bombs and billions of dollars. An unpopular regime cannot fight and win such war unless the Vietnamese wanted them to win. They made ultimate sacrifices for what, an unopular regime?

Japan was always an industrial and military power and South Korea was never a Vietnam. Vietnam has always been poor but they are improving fast.

Edited December 28, 2017 by CITIZEN_2015

[bush_cheney2004]

51 minutes ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

Yes indeed such criminal and evil state (US) must support the state of Israel. It is totally understandable. Criminals always support each other.

 

The U.S. supports Israel for its own interests, the same way it supports Canada now and its evil British Empire for the past 100 years, including all the "atrocities".

Canada has stolen far more land and committed far more atrocities against native people than Israel could ever dream of.

Edited December 28, 2017 by bush_cheney2004

[CITIZEN_2015]

It is not America's interest but rather some of its corrupt politicians to satisfy the strong Jewish lobbyists and their own re-election.

You are making ridiculous claims.

[bush_cheney2004]

1 hour ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

You are making ridiculous claims.

 

You can deny Canada's past and present all you wish while attacking tiny Israel,  but its capital will remain Jerusalem.

Canada (and the USA) are "one state" solutions with lots of "settlements".

Edited December 28, 2017 by bush_cheney2004

[Argus]

12 hours ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

As I said they won the war against the powerful US of A with all their superior planes and ships and bombs and billions of dollars

With the help of billions of dollars in arms from the Soviet Union and Communist China

12 hours ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

An unpopular regime cannot fight and win such war unless the Vietnamese wanted them to win.

Of course they can, as long as they have support from abroad. Besides, unlike a democracy, they don't have to care what the people want or think, and certainly have no care about casualties.

12 hours ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

They made ultimate sacrifices for what, an unopular regime?

They got drafted and did as they were told or were executed.

12 hours ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

Japan was always an industrial and military power and South Korea was never a Vietnam. Vietnam has always been poor but they are improving fast.

Japan was in ruins and it had no familiarity with democracy or human rights whatsoever. The Americans changed all that. South Korea's government was a brutal dictatorship and is now a thriving democracy. Vietnam is a shithole run by Communist thugs.

[GostHacked]

20 hours ago, Argus said:

The game of nations is never pretty. The US supported a nasty regime in South Vietnam. The Russians and Chinese supported an even nastier regime in North Vietnam and now present day Vietnam. They also support an incurably evil regime in North Korea. In fact, they put it in place to begin with. Western nations support the Saudis because they need the oil. It's self interest. No one pretends any of them are paragons of virtue. No one pretends the US has not done some shitty things. Anyone has the right to criticize them for those shitty things. But really, a lot of nations are like teenagers whose food, clothing and shelter is taken care of by dad and mom, criticizing dad and mom because they don't live up to the teenager's standard of behavior. Hey, get out and support yourself, then criticize.

 

Well, it's hard to bitch about dictatorships supported by other nations, when the US supports dictatorships like Saudi Arabia (regardless of so called 'legitimate' reasons (aka oil)). Which seems to work against both the US and Israel.

I wonder if Israel could survive on it's own if the US stops funding it.

[Argus]

16 minutes ago, GostHacked said:

Well, it's hard to bitch about dictatorships supported by other nations, when the US supports dictatorships like Saudi Arabia (regardless of so called 'legitimate' reasons (aka oil)). Which seems to work against both the US and Israel.

I wonder if Israel could survive on it's own if the US stops funding it.

I think half the reason why the US supports Saudi Arabia now (it doesn't need their oil) is that the alternatives are worse. There is ZERO chance that if the Saudi regime falls it will be replaced by something more liberal or democratic. It would be replaced by something much closer to ISIS, in fact.

If Israel didn't care about western help or assistance and felt itself at risk it would simply drive the Palestinians out and tell the world to screw itself. Did the world do anything as the Syrians with their Russian and Iranian helpers slaughtered hundreds of thousands and drove half the population of the country away? Not. One. Thing.

Edited December 28, 2017 by Argus

[GostHacked]

7 minutes ago, Argus said:

I think half the reason why the US supports Saudi Arabia now (it doesn't need their oil) is that the alternatives are worse. There is ZERO chance that if the Saudi regime falls it will be replaced by something more liberal or democratic. It would be replaced by something much closer to ISIS, in fact.

If Israel didn't care about western help or assistance and felt itself at risk it would simply drive the Palestinians out and tell the world to screw itself. Did the world do anything as the Syrians with their Russian and Iranian helpers slaughtered hundreds of thousands and drove half the population of the country away? Not. One. Thing.

What's worse that supporting Saudi Arabia? Remember this is where Osama Bin Laden and MOST of the 9/11 hijackers came from.

And Israel IS driving the Palestinians out via illegal settlements that are growing in the occupied territories. Mark my words, in 10-20 years Israel WILL claim all of the occupied territories as Israel proper. That map that is trotted out many times , it does not lie.

And yes the west did care, that's why ISIS(allegedly) .. and the FSA operated out of Turkey. was created by the West, how soon we forget that! Same reasons we saw Al-Queda being supported by the west to drive out the Soviets back in the day. Same tactic is being used to drive Russia out of Syria, which 7 years later has not worked. Assad is STILL in power.

However you would be better to mention the take over of Crimea by Russia and how no one really batted an eye.

 

[Argus]

3 hours ago, GostHacked said:

What's worse that supporting Saudi Arabia? Remember this is where Osama Bin Laden and MOST of the 9/11 hijackers came from.

And that mentality is thriving in Saudi Arabia. What's worse than the Saud regime? Bin Laden's ilk in charge instead of being on the periphery. That is a virtual certainty if the Saud regime falls.

3 hours ago, GostHacked said:

And Israel IS driving the Palestinians out via illegal settlements that are growing in the occupied territories.

And yet the population of Palestinians continues to rise - not fall.

 

 

3 hours ago, GostHacked said:

And yes the west did care, that's why ISIS(allegedly) .. and the FSA operated out of Turkey. was created by the West, how soon we forget that!

How can I remember your alleged beginnings of ISIS when they are largely imaginary?