NAFTA negotiations.

[bush_cheney2004]

15 minutes ago, Queenmandy85 said:

Russian military doctrine has many of the features of Soviet doctrine. In advance of an attack,  they will open with a barage of conventional and tactical nuclear weapons to destroy resistance.  You are niave to believe NATO would not respond with a massive retaliation.

 

The history of NATO doctrine says otherwise....long gone are the large American divisions and tank battalions.  What used to be 300,000 U.S. troops is now 30,000....to deter, not stop a Russian invasion.   NATO does not have the capacity to respond in such a manner, even with forward deployed U.S. forces.   This is Trump's point....Europe cannot / will not defend itself at such expensive levels, preferring to finance social welfare states instead. 

NATO command does not have strategic nuclear forces...they chop to respective national command authorities, and with good reason.   Nobody wants to start nuclear armageddon  because the Russians just invaded Estonia.   

If this is so important, why doesn't Canada spend more on defence ?   

Why can't America demilitarize to fund universal health care and the welfare state just like Canada/Europe ?

These are the frustrations that Trump and previous U.S. presidents have articulated...why is it a U.S. burden ?

 

Edited July 4, 2018 by bush_cheney2004

[bush_cheney2004]

3 minutes ago, Queenmandy85 said:

Why is NAFTA a relic? Why does President Trump have an issue with multi-lateral agreements. In union there is strenght.

 

NAFTA is a relic because the economic, social, and political conditions at the time it was adopted have changed significantly.   Mexico has floundered,  Canada sold itself out, and America now turns to China for cheap imported goods.   NAFTA became the giant "sucking sound" that Ross Perot warned of in 1992.  Liberals in Canada actually hated FTA/NAFTA...now they love it ?

NAFTA has a built in provision for any partner to leave after six months notice...it is part of the agreement.

[Queenmandy85]

Thanks. I don't know that I agree, but it is good to know where you are coming from.

[paxamericana]

9 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

With regard to NATO, Canada has been increasing its financial and military support for NATO recently.  Trump recognized this.  Dismantling NATO would be a major misstep, playing right into Putin’s hands.  It would be better if Russia joined NATO then to replace it with an organization where aggressive powers like Russia and China would want dominance.  China is trying to dominate the seas beyond its waters.  Russia invaded and annexed the Crimea and is trying to do the same thing in Ukraine.  If you think Putin’s ambitions stop there, look out.  NATO is preventing Russian aggression.

The problem is that Trump is either naive to how he is being manipulated or else he is consenting to it. What’s most foolish about Trump is that, as he attempts to weaken his allies through a trade war and disregarding agreements on climate change and humane immigration policy, he is creating openings for Russia and China.  At some point soon, countries may give up on trying to work with the U.S. under the U.S. led alliance of the past 75 years, and may instead align with China, whose leadership is well aware of its growing role and minding its p’s and q’s while Trump is pissing everyone off. 

Feel free to join china. Im sure they'll share your values and pay for you nato dead beats. 

[Zeitgeist]

Tell me what great military or sphere of influence geopolitical moves the U.S. has made over the past 20 years that have made the world a safer or better place?  Apart from the invasion of Afghanistan, which was a NATO mission in defense of the U.S. to which Canada made large contributions, especially in the south around Kandahar and through post-war rebuilding and policing.  U.S. intervention in Iraq and indirectly in Syria has been an unmitigated disaster.  Don't even mention Libya.  How has Trump picked up the pieces?  By sealing off its borders to the desperate people who tried to escape the Islamic Republic that the U.S. seeded.  And Trump is causing shit on the environmental front, in world trade, and by giving credence to Putin and other fascists.  It's grossly irresponsible, but Trump's followers are impressed by his aggression.  Trump of course doesn't give a shit about his followers.  He's demonstrated that he has no real loyalties, except perhaps to his daughter, who is humouring King Lear as he falters.   Paxrom, your interests say it all.  I worry for the future when I read some of the comments on here.  Germany under Hitler has been described as a people under hypnosis.  I hope American voters wake up and see these destructive policies for what they are and that world leaders censure them wherever possible.

[eyeball]

22 hours ago, paxrom said:

You don't get it do you. This ain't about trump its about Canada and the EU ripping off americans whilst asking us to defend you all

There are lots of us who would be just as happy if you'd all just fuck off too. As if that'll ever happen though.

You don't get eagles and herons either I see.

[paxamericana]

41 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Paxrom, your interests say it all.

Thanks! I was hoping it would catch your eye. It was very specifically worded to offend as many Canadian/European liberals as possible. As much as I hate you all I still think it is a hate worth preserving. Hence I am pro NATO, pro post world war 2 rule based order. Otherwise there'd be nobody left worth hating...they'd just be enemies. 

49 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Tell me what great military or sphere of influence geopolitical moves the U.S. has made over the past 20 years that have made the world a safer or better place? 

This is a great topic to discuss, one that requires another post to thoroughly dissect, so I will say this, the dissolution of the soviet union brought on different challenges to world security and America for the most part was winding down during the late 90s as a result. But with the advent of non-state actor(terrorists etc...) and aggression below the threshold of war (cyber attack, political subversion, election interference etc...) america's strategic calculus needed a hard rethink one in which the Trump administration has acknowledge and is aggressively pursuing. 

56 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

 U.S. intervention in Iraq and indirectly in Syria has been an unmitigated disaster. 

Yes and no, yes in that we should not have invaded Iraq , but as for Syria and much of the middle east the Arab spring has proven that the dictatorship were no longer sustainable in maintaining peace. 

58 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

And Trump is causing shit on the environmental front, in world trade, and by giving credence to Putin and other fascists.

Environmental concerns are overburdening industry and needed to be scaled back from Obama levels,

Same for world trade, too many issue with supply management and tariff should commit to free trade as proposed by trump. Though his negotiation tactic are somewhat controversial.

Putin---false, He's an American president. He serves America's interest, if we want to do deals with Russia or china to offset the cost of defending dead beat allies then that's what we shall have.  

 

[paxamericana]

7 minutes ago, eyeball said:

There are lots of us who would be just as happy if you'd all just fuck off too. As if that'll ever happen though.

You don't get eagles and herons either I see.

Then why don't you pay more for your own defense and build your own hegemony? No you rather just pursue liberal idealism because you don't have the largest burden of maintaining world peace. 

[bush_cheney2004]

50 minutes ago, paxrom said:

This is a great topic to discuss, one that requires another post to thoroughly dissect, so I will say this, the dissolution of the soviet union brought on different challenges to world security and America for the most part was winding down during the late 90s as a result. But with the advent of non-state actor(terrorists etc...) and aggression below the threshold of war (cyber attack, political subversion, election interference etc...) america's strategic calculus needed a hard rethink one in which the Trump administration has acknowledge and is aggressively pursuing.

 

Great post... the world has changed considerably from from the "post WW2" broke dick Europe that America paid to help rebuild and protect.   Europe has a larger population than the U.S.  and can certainly afford to pay for its own defense.  China is already an economic superpower, displacing Canada as America's #1 trading partner. So called "asymmetric warfare" and cyber is the game now....there will be no more large scale set piece wars on land and sea as before.

American resources are quick/able to respond to disaster and crises while Canada debates the cost of cargo airlift or ships.

Canada and the other defence deadbeats are not ready to pull their weight either way, hoping the U.S. will still pay the bill. 

Edited July 4, 2018 by bush_cheney2004

[SpankyMcFarland]

The EU manages free trade between 28 countries. North America can’t cope with three. 

[Zeitgeist]

Incredible the ignorance.  Research Canada’s contributions post tsunami to water treatment and rebuilding in Southeast Asia and Haiti.  It’s an immense contribution that proportionally dwarfs the American contributions.  

[Charles Anthony]

Folks, 

Stay on topic.  Please avoid thread derailment syndrome. 

[bush_cheney2004]

Goodbye NAFTA...if the Canadians and Mexicans want it so badly, then it can't be a good thing for U.S. workers.

No NAFTA...no TN work visas.    Buh-bye !

 

[Zeitgeist]

NAFTA probably needs renewal, but it’s better than the tariffs and counter tariffs. Bottom line: The U.S. makes more money on trade with Canada than Canada makes from the U.S., but sure, cut off your nose to spite your face. It’s so stupid. 

[paxamericana]

50 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

NAFTA probably needs renewal, but it’s better than the tariffs and counter tariffs. Bottom line: The U.S. makes more money on trade with Canada than Canada makes from the U.S., but sure, cut off your nose to spite your face. It’s so stupid. 

I think the disagreement came down to the sunset clause for trudeua. Not sure why 

[Queenmandy85]

The sunset clause means perpetual uncertainty. Bad for business.

[bush_cheney2004]

3 hours ago, Queenmandy85 said:

The sunset clause means perpetual uncertainty. Bad for business.

 

OK....then the U.S. should just automatically withdraw from the agreement every five years....then negotiate a new agreement.  

Problem solved...

[Queenmandy85]

Better solution would be to amend it as needed when conditions change. 

[paxamericana]

On 7/4/2018 at 7:15 PM, Queenmandy85 said:

Better solution would be to amend it as needed when conditions change. 

Yeah but i suspect its more complicated. 

[bush_cheney2004]

On 7/4/2018 at 7:15 PM, Queenmandy85 said:

Better solution would be to amend it as needed when conditions change. 

 

Conditions have changed, but "amending" NAFTA has proven to be problematic.

The U.S. is under no obligation to stay in NAFTA, despite Canadian/Mexican expectations and dependencies.

Hell, even Canadian politicians use the threat of leaving NAFTA to garner anti "murican" votes.

NAFTA sucks....Ross Perot was right about that.

[GostHacked]

On 7/3/2018 at 10:21 PM, paxrom said:

Feel free to join china. Im sure they'll share your values and pay for you nato dead beats. 

USA corporations already love China. Apple, designed in California, built by slaves at Foxcon in China! If you wanna talk 'values'.

[paxamericana]

Alright looks like NAFTA negotiation is shaping up in November after the midterm. Looks like they've come to an agreement and are just waiting on congressional approval. 

 

"MEXICO CITY, Mexico (AFP) — The renegotiation of the NAFTA trade agreement is still on track and could “accelerate” after the US mid-term elections in November, Mexico's next finance minister, Carlos Urzua, said Wednesday.

Urzua, a respected academic tapped by President-elect Andres Manuel Lopez Obrador to head his economic team, said he was optimistic on the talks, dismissing speculation that Mexico's newly elected leftist president would throw a wrench in the works.

“We are confident that after the (US mid-term) elections in November, things could accelerate very quickly,” Urzua told Mexican TV network Televisa, adding that a deal was possible by the end of the year.

“President Tump just has to give the go-ahead,” he said."https://finance.yahoo.com/news/nafta-talks-track-mexicos-future-finance-minister-212250325.html

 

[bush_cheney2004]

It is little surprise that the U.S. and Mexico are moving forward on a trade deal without Canada and Trudeau's "feminist agenda":

 

Quote

...A leaked audio tape reveals that Mr. Harper told a business audience in Montreal that neither Canada nor the United States wants a renegotiated North American free-trade agreement, and that Mr. Trudeau’s government believes it is “winning” in a fight with Mr. Trump. The tape was first reported by CTV News and later obtained by The Globe and Mail.

“The problem right now is that we have two governments that do not want an agreement,” the former prime minister is heard telling a private luncheon hosted by the Australia-Canada Economic Leadership Forum in Montreal on July 11.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/politics/article-after-tape-leaked-trudeau-dismisses-harpers-claim-that-liberals-do/

 

[paxamericana]

On 7/21/2018 at 2:16 AM, bush_cheney2004 said:

It is little surprise that the U.S. and Mexico are moving forward on a trade deal without Canada and Trudeau's "feminist agenda":

 

 

Well, looks like Canada is about to become like mexico. 

Trudeau is doing it to gain political points at the cost of everyday Canadians. 

"The reality is the government of Canada believes today that it is doing very well, the fight with Trump is good for it politically. It is winning and so if it can take that fight and continue it and more importantly paint Conservatives as linked to Donald Trump, this is great for them.”

Yeah, no question about it,” Mr. O’Toole said. “Some of these things are being done so the Prime Minister can point to his foundational issues purely for politics, not for actually driving to a negotiated set of terms.”

 

Edited July 22, 2018 by paxrom

[bush_cheney2004]

41 minutes ago, paxrom said:

Well, looks like Canada is about to become like mexico. 

Trudeau is doing it to gain political points at the cost of everyday Canadians.

 

I am now more convinced than ever that the U.S. should walk away from NAFTA and pursue unilateral trade deals.

NAFTA sucked when it started, and now it is woefully outdated for worker immigration, IP protection, non-tariff barriers, dumping, counterfeiting, etc.

American jobs can be repatriated with the right incentives and protections....capital is already coming home because of Trump policies.

Trudeau can campaign all he wants about how he stood up to Trump "the bully", all while he is still begging American markets for export trade and capital investment in Canada.   Trudeau has visited the USA sixteen (16) times as prime minister, and the Canadian foreign minister (Chrystia Freeland) and her minions a lot more...because they know what matters more.   Trump doesn't need to go begging in Canada.

 

Edited July 22, 2018 by bush_cheney2004