Free Speech or Hate Speech?

[The_Squid]

1 hour ago, bcsapper said:

But it mixes crimes with opinions. 

Can you show me where having antisemitic opinions are criminal?

[Guest]

1 hour ago, The_Squid said:

Can you show me where having antisemitic opinions are criminal?

If they were the same they couldn't be mixed up, could they?

[OftenWrong]

6 hours ago, ?Impact said:

The Quran preachers are out in force today. They obviously haven't opened up other holy books:

If there be found among you, within any of thy gates which the Lord thy God giveth thee, man or woman, that hath wrought wickedness in the sight of the Lord thy God, in transgressing his covenant, And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded; And it be told thee, and thou hast heard of it, and enquired diligently, and, behold, it be true, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought in Israel: Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing, unto thy gates, even that man or that woman, and shalt stone them with stones, till they die.

Yes, all religions are vile and their practitioners should be deported to the stone age where they belong.

There's lots of old, stupid books. Important question is who believes in them and how far do they go.

[OftenWrong]

5 hours ago, eyeball said:

Throw their unrepentant asses into jail and start a public education program aimed at teaching people why right-wing conservatism is not a Canadian value.   

You mean like they did in Soviet Russia?

[OftenWrong]

I think the laws we have are already broad enough to cover any serious situation re: hate speech. Whether such laws are right or needed at all is another topic. But to me the thing that comes out of this story is what these people are preaching to their congregation. This sort of hateful condemnation and call for death to infidels, esp. Jews, is disturbing and yet it seems to be an inherent part of the islamic text and daily prayer. You have a section of the population praying daily for the death of Jews and Christians, beginning as young children. It doesn't take a behavioural psychologist to explain the most likely outcome. I expect this is happening in mosques everywhere, more common than not. These people need to undergo a big, big culture change. There needs to be an inquiry.

[eyeball]

5 hours ago, bcsapper said:

If jail for hate speech was not an utterly ridiculous proposition, you'd be serving a life sentence for expressing your views on right wing conservatives. 

If you'd take more care to notice you'll see I played the isms not the ists.

[eyeball]

54 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

You mean like they did in Soviet Russia?

No, I mean like they did in Alberta.

[dialamah]

38 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

There needs to be an inquiry.

I would support this if I was reasonably certain these two weren't isolated cases.   There should be zero tolerance for this kind of prayer or sermon, within the Muslim community as well as outside.  

[OftenWrong]

1 minute ago, eyeball said:

No, I mean like they did in Alberta.

Nice sarcasm, glad to see you're feeling better!  

[eyeball]

What sarcasm?

[Boges]

http://news.nationalpost.com/full-comment/barbara-kay-actually-one-neednt-be-a-hysterical-bigot-to-have-concerns-with-m-103

Quote

The case against M-103 is actually much simpler, and one need not be hysterical to make it. M-103 is troubling for its lack of definition and in particular to its deference to language in petition E-411, which M-103 cites as its raison d’étre, to wit: “Recently an infinitesimally small number of extremist individuals have conducted terrorist activities while claiming to speak for the religion of Islam… These violent individuals do not reflect in any way the values or the teachings of the religion of Islam. In fact, they misrepresent the religion. We categorically reject all their activities. They in no way represent the religion, the beliefs and the desire of Muslims to co-exist in peace with all peoples of the world.”

I’m gratified the petition writer — Liberal MP Iqra Khalid? An Islamic advocacy group? The PMO? — rejects jihadism as un-Islamic, but phrases like “do not reflect in any way” and  “misrepresent the religion” are an opinion, not the immutable fact implied by the language and tone. These words are clearly meant as a directive to Canadians concerning the “correct” opinions we are to adopt. The unspoken but very real message is that it would be Islamophobic to think otherwise. One needn’t be a conspiracy theorist to see the thin end of an elephant-sized speech-chilling wedge here. Because the thin edge has morphed into a fat edge elsewhere in the West.

 

[Altai]

13 hours ago, OftenWrong said:

I think the laws we have are already broad enough to cover any serious situation re: hate speech. Whether such laws are right or needed at all is another topic. But to me the thing that comes out of this story is what these people are preaching to their congregation. This sort of hateful condemnation and call for death to infidels, esp. Jews, is disturbing and yet it seems to be an inherent part of the islamic text and daily prayer. You have a section of the population praying daily for the death of Jews and Christians, beginning as young children. It doesn't take a behavioural psychologist to explain the most likely outcome. I expect this is happening in mosques everywhere, more common than not. These people need to undergo a big, big culture change. There needs to be an inquiry.

Which part of Quran orders killing Jews ? If you cant show a verse or if you show a wrong verse, I will put you in ignore list.

 

[DogOnPorch]

44 minutes ago, Altai said:

Which part of Quran orders killing Jews ? If you cant show a verse or if you show a wrong verse, I will put you in ignore list.

 

A threat from a Muslim...how ironic.

While Jews are mentioned many times in the Quran both directly and indirectly, Sura 5 (The Dinner Table) informs us that the Jews are cursed by Allah for breaking his covenant (ie not recognizing Mohammad as the new Moses) and how Muslims are to treat them for this sin. Jews, like Christians, are fasadis (mischief makers). And the punishment for fasad is...according to 5:33...

The recompense of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and do mischief in the land is only that they shall be killed or crucified or their hands and their feet be cut off on the opposite sides, or be exiled from the land. That is their disgrace in this world, and a great torment is theirs in the Hereafter.

However, the unbeliever can...according to 9:29...pay the Jizya with willing submission and feel themselves subdued to avoid death.

Fight against those who believe not in Allah, nor in the Last Day, nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth (i.e. Islam) among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

 

Note: on the subject of free speech and the Quran, Altai doesn't decide what is correct or incorrect in terms of verses.

 

[GostHacked]

4 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said:

A threat from a Muslim...how ironic.

Note: on the subject of free speech and the Quran, Altai doesn't decide what is correct or incorrect in terms of verses.

Jews were also mentioned in the Bible, and if I recall they were not praised in the Bible.

But I bet you can tell us what is incorrect in the terms of the verses?

[DogOnPorch]

1 minute ago, GostHacked said:

Jews were also mentioned in the Bible, and if I recall they were not praised in the Bible.

But I bet you can tell us what is incorrect in the terms of the verses?

Say what?

Jesus was a Jew.

[dialamah]

 

2 hours ago, Boges said:

http://news.nationalpost.com/full-comment/barbara-kay-actually-one-neednt-be-a-hysterical-bigot-to-have-concerns-with-m-103

 

 

 

 

 

 

Oh, look - it's Barbara Kay again.   The one who made a series of completely unsupported assumptions in a different article to come to 'conclusion' that the government is about to outlaw criticism of Islam.  

As an indication of how well she understands the situation, there is a note appended to the bottom of this article "an earlier version of this story mischaracterized the legislative authority of M-103."  She blames an 'editing error', but seriously?  Editing something doesn't change what is said to that degree.   Her opinion, based as it is on suppositions, guesses, and assumptions, rather than actual facts, has very little credibility.

[DogOnPorch]

3 minutes ago, dialamah said:

 

Oh, look - it's Barbara Kay again.   The one who made a series of completely unsupported assumptions in a different article to come to 'conclusion' that the government is about to outlaw criticism of Islam.  

As an indication of how well she understands the situation, there is a note appended to the bottom of this article "an earlier version of this story mischaracterized the legislative authority of M-103."  She blames an 'editing error', but seriously?  Editing something doesn't change what is said to that degree.   Her opinion, based as it is on suppositions, guesses, and assumptions, rather than actual facts, has very little credibility.

 

Is Barbara Kay an Islamophobe? Should she be silenced?

[dialamah]

Reading the link provided by Boges above, there was an advertisement from Kellie Leitch: a woman with tape over her mouth, and the words "M-103" on the tape.   The tag: "No religion should be singled out for special consideration."

Hypocrisy at it's finest since it was Harper's government who was responsible for the Ottawa Protocol, which singles out Jews for "special consideration".

 

[DogOnPorch]

1 minute ago, dialamah said:

Reading the link provided by Boges above, there was an advertisement from Kellie Leitch: a woman with tape over her mouth, and the words "M-103" on the tape.   The tag: "No religion should be singled out for special consideration."

Hypocrisy at it's finest since it was Harper's government who was responsible for the Ottawa Protocol, which singles out Jews for "special consideration".

 

 

Aren't Canadian Jews feeling the pressure from all the folks that hate their guts being allowed into Canada en masse? Aren't Jews the highest statistic re: your pet hate crimes?

[dialamah]

Just now, DogOnPorch said:

 

Is Barbara Kay an Islamophobe? Should she be silenced?

 

She might be an Islamaphobe, don't know for sure.  Of course she should not be silenced - she's as entitled to her opinion as much as I am, however wrong she is.   Only if she started calling for death to Muslims - then yeah, I'd want her silenced.   But she hasn't, has she?

What is it about conservatives that they assume someone who disagrees with them wants them silenced?    Can't they handle disagreement?  

 

[DogOnPorch]

2 minutes ago, dialamah said:

She might be an Islamaphobe, don't know for sure.  Of course she should not be silenced - she's as entitled to her opinion as much as I am, however wrong she is.   Only if she started calling for death to Muslims - then yeah, I'd want her silenced.   But she hasn't, has she?

What is it about conservatives that they assume someone who disagrees with them wants them silenced?    Can't they handle disagreement?  

 

 

So Canada hasn't gotten quite to the stage where Muslims start demanding special rules and silencing opponents of Islam?

[dialamah]

Just now, DogOnPorch said:

 

Aren't Canadian Jews feeling the pressure from all the folks that hate their guts being allowed into Canada en masse? Aren't Jews the highest statistic re: your pet hate crimes?

 

 

 

 

 

"from all the folks", hey?   Did you miss how pissed off our resident Muslim was at the claim the Koran supported the killing of Jews?   Have you missed the many examples in the news of Muslims and Jews supporting each other?   

Clearly, there are some Muslims who hate Jews; there are also white nationalists who hate Jews (and Muslims) - and White Nationalists are the ones who are the most active when it comes to crimes against other groups - Jews, immigrants, gays.   Perhaps we need to get rid of White Nationalists in order to protect Jews, blacks, gays and Muslims.

http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada/right-wing-extremist-groups-prevalent-across-canada-study-warns

Quote

 

One place where right-wing extremists find support is online. Sub-forums of the white supremacist website, Stormfront.org, are among the most popular, the researchers found. Topics of recent discussion threads included “Brown people are still invading” and “I am sorry but only white people are Canadian.”

“One officer voiced his concern about websites that urged its audience to ‘kill the Aboriginals, kill the Jews, kill the blacks, kill the gays,’” the researchers wrote.

 

 

https://www.vice.com/en_ca/article/why-white-nationalists-are-the-extremists-we-should-fear123

Quote

 

In studying 30 years worth of violent incidents in Canada, however, Perry found around 120 events coming from white supremacists and related groups versus seven acts of violence coming from what the study refers to as Islamic extremism.

 

 

http://www.metronews.ca/news/canada/2016/12/05/alt-right-in-canada-can-it-happen-here.html

Quote

 

The morning after Donald Trump won the U.S. presidential election, many Canadians took to social media to express dismay, mixed with and a hefty dose of smugness. “Thankful to live in Canada” people wrote. “Good luck, ‘Merica.”

Almost as quickly, hate crimes began to be noticed on this side of the border.

In Ottawa, swastikas were spray painted on synagogues. In Toronto, a man was filmed shouting racist obscenities at a streetcar passenger. In Vancouver, someone has been distributing anti-Chinese pamphlets.

To suggest these were the work of trolls ignores the reality that right-wing extremism already existed here.

1

 

http://ca.reuters.com/article/domesticNews/idCAN0520200520080205

Quote

VANCOUVER, British Columbia (Reuters) - A self-professed "white nationalist" has been convicted of using the Internet to promote hatred against non-white groups and Jews, Canadian officials said on Tuesday.

Keith "Bill" Noble was found guilty of a hate crime on Monday for postings he made from early 2003 to late 2005 on a Web site that investigators say he controlled from his home in Fort St. John in northern British Columbia.

 

 

http://www.cnn.com/2017/01/31/americas/quebec-mosque-shooting-suspect/

Quote

The suspect in the deadly rampage at a Quebec City mosque was known to local activists for his far-right views, according to news reports.

 

 

 

 

[?Impact]

27 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said:

Is Barbara Kay an Islamophobe? Should she be silenced?

Possibly. No.

Nobody is calling for silencing Islamophobes, but then you are not listening to what people are saying. Maybe we should call for mandatory reeducation camps for Conservatives, teach them how to listen and that critical thinking means more than repeating nonsense they get from their echo chamber.

Edited February 22, 2017 by ?Impact

[dialamah]

20 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said:

 

So Canada hasn't gotten quite to the stage where Muslims start demanding special rules and silencing opponents of Islam?

 

Only in some people's fevered imagination.  

[Argus]

On 2017-02-21 at 11:16 AM, dialamah said:

I've already said I condemn that kind of preaching and that if Imams and Mosques need investigating and criminal charges, that should happen.  

And yet, when a couple of dozen people turned up at the mosque where that kind of thing was being preached, to protest it, you felt the need to start a topic to discuss their 'Islamophobia'.