Free Speech or Hate Speech?

[dialamah]

Just now, bcsapper said:

I didn't look at the link.  That's not unusual, as I rarely do.  I just read the posts.

Given the earlier motion and the current motion then, there is nothing wrong with the protest in the OP?

 

I'm pretty sure I've already answered that more than once.    If you are going to ignore what I write, then I'm just going to stop responding to you.  

[Guest]

14 minutes ago, dialamah said:

I'm pretty sure I've already answered that more than once.    If you are going to ignore what I write, then I'm just going to stop responding to you.  

It's a device used when arguing.  I know you have answered, but you also said that we should do all our hating and criticism within the legal limits already in place.  Given the protest was legal, there was nothing wrong with it.  It's my fault for having a poor memory and no patience with the search function.

I think you said you said the protest was Islamophobic, but let's face it, searching for that on here to confirm it would take more time than I'm willing to spend.

[OftenWrong]

The story of the Mosque is not yet over, as the mosque issued a public apology for making highly offensive "supplications against the Jews". This was released on their web page.

" It has come to our attention that an inappropriate supplication that was offensive to those of Jewish faith, was made in our downtown mosque, Masjid Toronto. Such language is unacceptable and against the values and practices of the Muslim Association of Canada (MAC), Masjid Toronto and the Muslim Community at large. Masjid Toronto condemns all forms of hate and racism towards any faith group or others and is committed to offering a safe spiritual space for all congregants. "
Posted February 20th, 2017

http://www.masjidtoronto.com/masjid-toronto-condemns-all-forms-of-hate/

Was the OP asking in this poll whether the protestors were conducting hate speech in their protest against Motion 103,
or whether the Imams conducted hate speech in issuing their supplicants, a message broadcasted routinely to Toronto muslims, right under the very noses of Canadian citizens?

[dialamah]

If you re-read the OP you'll find out what the OP was asking.

And, you'll note that when Betsy raised the issue of the Montreal Imam who was praying for the killing of Jews, I agreed that was unacceptable and should be investigated and the Imam and Mosque held accountable.

It is good that the Masjid Mosque condemned the practice of hate in their sermons or prayers.   I hope they mean it.  If not, I hope they are also investigated and if it's found that this is in fact a regular occurrence, they should be held legally responsible.

 

 

 

[OftenWrong]

10 minutes ago, dialamah said:

If you re-read the OP you'll find out what the OP was asking.

I know what the OP was asking. My point is I don't think the OP knew what they were asking. It's a more difficult question now, isn't it?

Quote

It is good that the Masjid Mosque condemned the practice of hate in their sermons or prayers.   I hope they mean it.  If not, I hope they are also investigated and if it's found that this is in fact a regular occurrence, they should be held legally responsible.

Yes, agreed there should be lots of investigations. This was just one Mosque we've never heard of, part of a branch or franchise of some sort. But the question is, is their "brand" of Islam unique? Or is this happening everywhere?

This is right in the heart of Toronto, where the mayor felt compelled to say something. I wonder how he feels about this little factoid. Or, maybe he already knew they have hate speech like this all the time, because that's what it is, without need for debate.

[OftenWrong]

Did anyone figure out who the group is, and why they call themselves "Never Again Canada"? Just curious. I want to find out all the information before I vote in the poll.

[?Impact]

4 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

I But the question is, is their "brand" of Islam unique? Or is this happening everywhere?

You mean like Rev. Franklin Graham picked by Donald Trump to be part of his inauguration? Graham is a very prolific anti-Muslim bigot.

[OftenWrong]

1 minute ago, ?Impact said:

You mean like Rev. Franklin Graham picked by Donald Trump to be part of his inauguration? Graham is a very prolific anti-Muslim bigot.

Really? How many muslims have his people beheaded?

[OftenWrong]

" Never Again Canada is an Organization dedicated to fighting anti semitism, Propaganda, Terror and Jew hatred In Canada. One of our strategies is not allowing history to repeat itself by standing up to Terrorism, Jew hatred, anti semitism, lies and propaganda that are being spread around the world about the Jews and Israel. Hatred is like cancer, the more you leave it untreated by ignoring it, the worse it gets, and survival rates drop. The earlier cancer is identified, and removed, the higher the survival rate and the better chances one has in surviving it. The only effective way to fight anti semitism and islamic terror is to first Identify it, then challenge it, confront it and then remove it as early as possible for best survival rates and results. "

- So there is a Jewish connection. I think we have closed the loop on this one. To me the implications are pretty interesting. What's even more interesting is our governments one-track minded singular vision to track and monitor incidents involving possible islamophobia, while these people are PREACHING about killing Jews and slitting the throats of "Polytheists" (us).

Sorry Dialamah, I don't want to hurt your feelings but it sounds like those are some bad guys in there.

Edited February 21, 2017 by OftenWrong

[?Impact]

12 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

Really? How many muslims have his people beheaded?

We are not talking about beheading anyone, we are talking about hate speech. Did you miss the topic?

[OftenWrong]

7 minutes ago, ?Impact said:

We are not talking about beheading anyone, we are talking about hate speech. Did you miss the topic?

I dunno, you brought in Donald Trump kinda threw me there.

[?Impact]

7 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

I dunno, you brought in Donald Trump kinda threw me there.

Is he into beheading people?

[betsy]

12 hours ago, ?Impact said:

Yes, that is one thing that can be better done. The other, much larger part, that you seem to totally ignore is this is not just about laws and law enforcement. Only military dictators rule with an iron fist.

Implementation of laws. That's the ONLY thing that can work in preventing crimes.

Why do we have laws if we're not going to enforce them?  How are they suppose to work if we're not going to follow through?

 

You're all for wasting time and money on this motion - which includes "QUELLING anything that they deem to be a hate crime and Islamophobic,"  and now you say this is not about laws and law enforcement!  How do you "quell?"  Do you know the  meaning of quell? To end or to stop!  What's the point then of all this?

Do you make any sense?  No.

Edited February 21, 2017 by betsy

[betsy]

12 hours ago, ?Impact said:

Yes, that is one thing that can be better done. The other, much larger part, that you seem to totally ignore is this is not just about laws and law enforcement. Only military dictators rule with an iron fist.

That's the only way you can try to quell it - and I say try!  We've seen people defy laws, and willingly went to the slammer for it.

Surely you don't believe that you can stop everyone from expressing themselves by appealing to their "kindness"....and saying please?

 

Give something concrete.  I've been asking.....why do we need this motion when there's already existing laws that address this problem?  Please answer that.

Edited February 21, 2017 by betsy

[betsy]

9 hours ago, dialamah said:

If you re-read the OP you'll find out what the OP was asking.

And, you'll note that when Betsy raised the issue of the Montreal Imam who was praying for the killing of Jews, I agreed that was unacceptable and should be investigated and the Imam and Mosque held accountable.

It is good that the Masjid Mosque condemned the practice of hate in their sermons or prayers.   I hope they mean it.  If not, I hope they are also investigated and if it's found that this is in fact a regular occurrence, they should be held legally responsible.

 

 

 

I've answered the OP.  It's not hate-speech.  They're doing free-speech!

[betsy]

12 hours ago, DogOnPorch said:

 

...and freedom FROM religion. Very important.

 

There is no such thing as freedom FROM religion in the Constitution.  That's a newly made-up thing by secularist/atheists.  We still invoke God in our government.  But I suppose those who don't believe in God can choose to omit the reference to God.

As an example: the oath of allegiance by the Prime Minister in his swearing in.

 

 

Quote

 

Oath of Allegiance

I, __________, do swear (declare) that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth the Second, Queen of Canada, Her Heirs and Successors.

So help me God.

The Oath of the Members of the Privy Council

I, __________, do solemnly and sincerely swear (declare) that I shall be a true and faithful servant to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth the Second, as a member of Her Majesty's Privy Council for Canada. I will in all things to be treated, debated and resolved in Privy Council, faithfully, honestly and truly declare my mind and my opinion. I shall keep secret all matters committed and revealed to me in this capacity, or that shall be secretly treated of in Council. Generally, in all things I shall do as a faithful and true servant ought to do for Her Majesty.

So help me God.

Oath of Office

I, _________, do solemnly and sincerely promise and swear (declare) that I will truly and faithfully, and to the best of my skill and knowledge, execute the powers and trusts reposed in me as ...........

So help me God.

Note: Individuals may choose to affirm their oath. In those cases, the word "swear" is replaced by the word "declare" and the expression "So help me God." is omitted.

 

 

http://www.gg.ca/document.aspx?id=316

 

 

There is a movement by Atheists/Secularists to eliminate reference to God in the Charter of Rights.

 

Just saying.....now, back to topic.

Edited February 21, 2017 by betsy

[betsy]

14 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

As I said - if they propose a law that says one religion isn't allowed to be criticized while others can, I will object to that.  As would the courts of course.

You didn't answer the question.  Why do we need this motion when we already have existing laws that address the concerns?

 

 

Quote

 

13 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

Because the motion will show people that attention is being paid to the special circumstances we are seeing now.  

 

So, it's grandstanding.  That's not good reason enough to be wasting time and money over something that is REDUNDANT!! 

All that is pure talk!  Implement the existing laws - that's how you show people attention is being paid to these "special circumstances."  All they need to do is  remind people of our EXISTING  hate crime and hate speech laws! 

Edited February 21, 2017 by betsy

[betsy]

11 hours ago, dialamah said:

Cripes, did you even look at the link????   The Canadian government condemned Islamaphobia in November of 2016 and no freedoms were affected!  

 

So why is this MP revisiting it?  She must be grandstanding - on the backs of the Muslims that were massacred?  She's using them?

Edited February 21, 2017 by betsy

[betsy]

11 hours ago, dialamah said:

My contention, at this point, is that you don't know what this motion is about and you don't understand the difference between a motion for a study and a bill that proposes legislation.

 

All I understand about this is we're wasting time and money over this!  It's unnecessary! 

 

 

[betsy]

11 hours ago, dialamah said:

Perhaps so they can figure out why a Canadian would go to a Mosque and shoot six people, so they could prevent that happening again.   Maybe they don't like hearing stories about women having their hijabs ripped off, or pig's heads being left at Mosques or "Muslims go home" graffiti.  Perhaps they think those sorts of things suggest an underlying problem and want to study it so they can address that problem.   Who knows?  Once they do the study, maybe they'll decide it's unwise to bring in more Muslim refugees and to cut back on immigration from Muslim countries because the good citizens of Canada are too scared to cope.   

 

 

 

They don't need to table a motion for it!  Get a committee to study it, if that's what they want! 

Our Parliament should deal with pressing problems that has to be addressed, like our deficits and the economy!

 

 

[betsy]

12 hours ago, dialamah said:

So what?   There's no consensus about anti-Semitism either; Rue is convinced some people are anti-Semitic on this board; at least some of those people are equally as convinced they are not.   Does that worry you?   Do you require someone here to define for you what "islamaphobia" is so you can make sure you don't run afoul of that definition?  

 

Why wouldn't you also stand beside them to hold that placard?  

There is anti-Semitism in Canada!  We have people in Canada who advocate for the wiping out of Israel and all Jews.  That falls under  the definition of anti-Semitism in our law against hate crimes.   In comparison,  I never heard of anyone promoting wiping out all Muslims from the face of the earth.

Edited February 21, 2017 by betsy

[BubberMiley]

1 hour ago, betsy said:

There is anti-Semitism in Canada!  We have people in Canada who advocate for the wiping out of Israel and all Jews.  That falls under  the definition of anti-Semitism in our law against hate crimes.   In comparison,  I never heard of anyone promoting wiping out all Muslims from the face of the earth.

Then you haven't been paying close attention. We don't have people advocating for the killing of Jews, as you lie. Just the state of Israel (which I personally disagree with advocating. Israel is here to stay.) But here are people all over the place advocating killing Muslims. I see it on Twitter all the time among Trump supporters whom I troll. They're a batshit-crazy lot.

[betsy]

Just now, BubberMiley said:

Then you haven't been paying close attention. We don't have people advocating for the killing of Jews, as you lie. Just the state of Israel (which I personally disagree with advocating. Israel is here to stay.) But here are people all over the place advocating killing Muslims. I see it on Twitter all the time among Trump supporters whom I troll. They're a batshit-crazy lot.

I'd seen the video of Al-Quds, and the imam in Montreal. 

[BubberMiley]

21 minutes ago, betsy said:

I'd seen the video of Al-Quds, and the imam in Montreal. 

Linky? I ask because I suspect they are speaking of the state of Israel, not individual Jews, and you are misrepresenting their words because that's what you do. I can certainly engage in a game of, say, citations of five people calling for the death of Muslim people for every one you can provide calling for the death of Jews. And all those alt-right guys doing it that Ivanka called out yesterday don't count. Then, once we have established there are plenty of wingnuts to go around...I'm not sure what that proves but I guess it must be relevant.

Edited February 21, 2017 by BubberMiley

[drummindiver]

12 hours ago, dialamah said:

Cripes, did you even look at the link????   The Canadian government condemned Islamaphobia in November of 2016 and no freedoms were affected!   

The government also passed a motion condemning anti-Semitism in 2015; Trudeau condemned anti-Semitism again in November of 2016.   And, even though nobody demanded a precise definition of anti-Semitism in either of these instances, it turns out that we all can still criticize the Jewish religion and Isreal if we want, we can call Jewish people names if that's our thing - as long as we do all our hating and criticism within the legal limits already in place.   A motion was passed; no laws were implemented.

My contention, at this point, is that you don't know what this motion is about and you don't understand the difference between a motion for a study and a bill that proposes legislation.

 

Yet all you are worried about are signs saying no to Islam. 

How about mosque leaders calling for genocide of Jews and infidels. Which is a hate crime and illegal btw and happens weekly here in Canada.

Crickets.

 

 

http://en.cijnews.com/?p=208986