Free Speech or Hate Speech?

[BubberMiley]

13 minutes ago, drummindiver said:

Yet all you are worried about are signs saying no to Islam. 

How about mosque leaders calling for genocide of Jews and infidels. Which is a hate crime and illegal btw and happens weekly here in Canada.

Crickets.

Where does it say in your cite it happens weekly? Judging by the apology,  it doesn't seem to be common at all.

[betsy]

49 minutes ago, BubberMiley said:

Linky? I ask because I suspect they are speaking of the state of Israel, not individual Jews, and you are misrepresenting their words because that's what you do. I can certainly engage in a game of, say, citations of five people calling for the death of Muslim people for every one you can provide calling for the death of Jews. And all those alt-right guys doing it that Ivanka called out yesterday don't count. Then, once we have established there are plenty of wingnuts to go around...I'm not sure what that proves but I guess it must be relevant.

It's somewhere on page 1 (Al Quds), and page 2 (imam).

Wiping out state of Israel is wiping out Jews.  Same thing.  No one's calling for wiping out all Muslims!

 

Furthermore, the imam is praying for the jihadists - in other words, he's supporting and promoting terrorism by Muslims.

Edited February 21, 2017 by betsy

[DogOnPorch]

20 minutes ago, BubberMiley said:

Where does it say in your cite it happens weekly? Judging by the apology,  it doesn't seem to be common at all.

If it's one of al-Qaradawi's mosques, you can bet Jew-hatred is preached daily.

[BubberMiley]

4 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said:

If it's one of al-Qaradawi's mosques, you can bet Jew-hatred is preached daily.

 

 How do you know?

[drummindiver]

23 minutes ago, BubberMiley said:

Where does it say in your cite it happens weekly? Judging by the apology,  it doesn't seem to be common at all.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taqiya

https://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2016/08/22/islamic-schools-mosques-in-canada-are-filled-with-extremist-literature-study.html

http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/extremist-literature-common-in-canadian-mosques-islamic-schools-study-1.3039149

..as mosque happens weekly

[DogOnPorch]

1 minute ago, BubberMiley said:

 

 How do you know?

O Allah, take your enemies, the enemies of Islam. O Allah, take the Jews, the treacherous aggressors. O Allah, take this profligate, cunning, arrogant band of people. O Allah, they have spread much tyranny and corruption in the land. Pour Your wrath upon them, O our God. Lie in wait for them. O Allah, You annihilated the people of Thamoud (An early pagan Arab tribe) with an overpowering blast, and You annihilated the people of 'Aad with a fierce, icy gale, and You destroyed the pharaoh [of Exodus] and his soldiers – O Allah, take this oppressive, tyrannical band of people. O Allah, take this oppressive, Jewish Zionist band of people. O Allah, do not spare a single one of them. O Allah, count their numbers, and kill them, down to the very last one.

---al-Qawadawi

Look familiar?

 

[drummindiver]

24 minutes ago, BubberMiley said:

Where does it say in your cite it happens weekly? Judging by the apology,  it doesn't seem to be common at all.

...and again no concern for what the imam was espousing. Common liberal reaction.

[DogOnPorch]

3 minutes ago, drummindiver said:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taqiya

https://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2016/08/22/islamic-schools-mosques-in-canada-are-filled-with-extremist-literature-study.html

http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/extremist-literature-common-in-canadian-mosques-islamic-schools-study-1.3039149

..as mosque happens weekly

 

In the Quran, Jews are cursed by Allah.

[BubberMiley]

21 minutes ago, betsy said:

It's somewhere on page 1 (Al Quds), and page 2 (imam).

Wiping out state of Israel is wiping out Jews.  Same thing.  No one's calling for wiping out all Muslims!

 

No, Jews existed before the state of Israel. But rather than cite the hatred you claim doesn't exist, here are some hashtags so you can go on Twitter and find fellowship: #fuckislam, #banmuslims, #bansharia, #fucksharia.  The overt calls for murder tend to be taken down pretty fast though.

[Boges]

Would the hate laws also apply to prayers like cited here? 

http://www.torontosun.com/2017/02/20/jewish-defence-league-alleges-hate-crime

Quote

 

The videos, featuring a 2016 sermon in Arabic, were initially posted online by the mosque. They were subsequently posted on YouTube by CIJnews co-founder Jonathan Halevi, a linguist who speaks several languages.

According to Halevi, the sermon included the following:

“O Allah! Give them victory over the criminal people, O Allah! Destroy anyone who killed Muslims, O Allah! Destroy anyone who displaced the sons of the Muslims, O Allah! Count their number; slay them one by one and spare not one of them, O Allah! Purify Al-Aqsa Mosque from the filth of the Jews!”

For clarification, the “purify Al-Aqsa Mosque from the filth of the Jews” refers to the famous mosque in the Old City of Jerusalem.

 

Most of what's being debated as Hate Speech/Islamophobia are breaking existing laws. In the above instance the prayer is calling for the death of people. Would advocates of Islamophobia laws also make such prayers in public illegal? 

Edited February 21, 2017 by Boges

[drummindiver]

1 minute ago, BubberMiley said:

No, Jews existed before the state of Israel. But rather than cite the hatred you claim doesn't exist, here are some hashtags so you can go on Twitter and find fellowship: #fuckislam, #banmuslims, #bansharia, #fucksharia.  The overt calls for murder tend to be taken down pretty fast though.

Pretty flippant, And ban sharia is something all Canadians should get behind,  or maybe you're looking for a little more control over your wife?

[DogOnPorch]

4 minutes ago, Boges said:

Would the hate laws also apply to prayers like cited here? 

http://www.torontosun.com/2017/02/20/jewish-defence-league-alleges-hate-crime

 

O Allah vanquish the unjust Christians and the criminal Jews, the unjust traitors; strike them with your wrath; make their lives hostage to misery; drape them with endless despair, unrelenting pain and unremitting ailment; fill their lives with sorrow and pain and end their lives in humiliation and oppression; inflict your tortures and punishments upon the unjust Christians and criminal Jews. This is our supplication, Allah; grant us our request!

The above is blasted from megaphones during the Haj. That's pretty official as Islam goes.

[dialamah]

2 hours ago, drummindiver said:

Yet all you are worried about are signs saying no to Islam. 

How about mosque leaders calling for genocide of Jews and infidels. Which is a hate crime and illegal btw and happens weekly here in Canada.

 

I've already said I condemn that kind of preaching and that if Imams and Mosques need investigating and criminal charges, that should happen.   

And, since you are back -- where is the wording from M-103 that says Islamaphobia should be illegal and that valid criticism is the same as Islamaphobia?    

 

[Boges]

16 minutes ago, dialamah said:

I've already said I condemn that kind of preaching and that if Imams and Mosques need investigating and criminal charges, that should happen.   

And, since you are back -- where is the wording from M-103 that says Islamaphobia should be illegal and that valid criticism is the same as Islamaphobia?    

 

Then don't our current laws already address these issues? Even if you did think all form of Islam was a harmful religion, even the "peaceful" kind, then you should be able to protest or criticize it within current laws. You just can't advocate violence. 

Is that wrong? 

[DogOnPorch]

32 minutes ago, Boges said:

Then don't our current laws already address these issues? Even if you did think all form of Islam was a harmful religion, even the "peaceful" kind, then you should be able to protest or criticize it within current laws. You just can't advocate violence. 

Is that wrong? 

Any criticism of Islam is thought to be fasad by the faithful. Same goes for criticizing Muslims by non-Muslims.

Sura 9:29 sums-up the issue in a verse.

Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture - [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled.

 

The above isn't a suggestion from Allah. Nor a request.

It's an ORDER.

 

Edited February 21, 2017 by DogOnPorch

[Boges]

24 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said:

Any criticism of Islam is thought to be fasad by the faithful. Same goes for criticizing Muslims by non-Muslims.

Sura 9:29 sums-up the issue in a verse.

Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture - [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled.

 

The above isn't a suggestion from Allah. Nor a request.

It's an ORDER.

Sure. 

But it's not an order to otherwise secular Liberals who feel that criticism of Islam is bigotry or racism. 

[DogOnPorch]

6 minutes ago, Boges said:

Sure. 

But it's not an order to otherwise secular Liberals who feel that criticism of Islam is bigotry or racism. 

 

Our own incredulity re: what Islam actually constitutes is a VERY big issue. We non-believers simply can't accept that Muslims believe all this stuff and substitute our own values to explain it all away as if it was normal thinking. Thus, if I point out a passage in the Quran that's naughty, I'm the one to blame for said passage.

It's a self defense mechanism, I think.

 

[dialamah]

 

13 minutes ago, Boges said:

But it's not an order to otherwise secular Liberals who feel that criticism of Islam is bigotry or racism. 

It's not the fault of otherwise secular Liberals that anti-Muslim fanatics can't identify when they've gone from criticism to bigotry.   

 

[Guest]

Bigotry is another word that could use a real definition.  One dictionary definition says it's intolerance toward those who hold different opinions from oneself.

It could be a wonderful thing, to be lauded in a person.

Of course, there's always...

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/society/word-bigot-loses-all-meaning-201004292689

Edited February 21, 2017 by bcsapper

[dialamah]

4 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said:

Thus, if I point out a passage in the Quran that's naughty, I'm the one to blame for said passage.

Nobody denies the Quran has 'naughty' passages.   The problem with you is that you also deny the validity of Quranic passages contradicting the naughty ones.  Thus, if my brother-in-law rejects your claim that Allah demands death to unbelievers in favor of Quaranic verses that talk about religious tolerance, you would say he's not a 'true' Muslim. This is where the line is crossed from criticism to bigotry.   Not that bigotry is illegal; you are free to defend bigotry to your heart's content.

 

[Boges]

8 minutes ago, dialamah said:

It's not the fault of otherwise secular Liberals that anti-Muslim fanatics can't identify when they've gone from criticism to bigotry.   

Can't current hate speech laws already do that? 

[dialamah]

1 minute ago, bcsapper said:

Bigotry is another word that could use a real definition.  One dictionary definition says it's intolerance toward those who hold different opinions from oneself.

It could be a wonderful thing, to be lauded in a person.

 

Definition of bigot:    a person who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially :  one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance

Just now, Boges said:

Can't current hate speech laws already do that? 

Bigotry isn't illegal, as far as I know.   Only when one invites violence or death to a group does it become hate speech.   People are free to be as bigoted as they want.   Thus the protesters in the OP were perhaps bigots and crass, but they didn't do anything illegal.   The Imam, on the other hand, who talked about killing Jews in his sermon would be hate speech.   

That's my understanding of the difference.

 

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Boges said:

Can't current hate speech laws already do that? 

Why should they? Bigotry is not illegal, nor should it be.  It's just dumb, is all.

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, dialamah said:

Definition of bigot:    a person who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially :  one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance

Bigotry isn't illegal, as far as I know.   Only when one invites violence or death to a group does it become hate speech.   People are free to be as bigoted as they want.   Thus the protesters in the OP were perhaps bigots and crass, but they didn't do anything illegal.   The Imam, on the other hand, who talked about killing Jews in his sermon would be hate speech.   

That's my understanding of the difference.

 

I provided one definition, you provided another.  Kinda proves my point.

I agree completely with your understanding of the difference.

Edited February 21, 2017 by bcsapper

[DogOnPorch]

6 minutes ago, dialamah said:

Nobody denies the Quran has 'naughty' passages.   The problem with you is that you also deny the validity of Quranic passages contradicting the naughty ones.  Thus, if my brother-in-law rejects your claim that Allah demands death to unbelievers in favor of Quaranic verses that talk about religious tolerance, you would say he's not a 'true' Muslim. This is where the line is crossed from criticism to bigotry.   Not that bigotry is illegal; you are free to defend bigotry to your heart's content.

 

 

What is the Verse of the Sword and why is important in terms of the Quran's so-called 'good bits'?

Your brother-in-law doesn't get to decide what is Islamic.