Native Ceremony takes place at a public school

[Altai]

4 hours ago, msj said:

I did not invade anywhere.

I was born on Vancouver Island long before many first nation's people were born here and I am not going anywhere.  

You do realize that people like me just can't do DNA tests and then carve ourselves up: ok, I'll cut off this chunk that can stay here in Canada since it is First Nation, oh, this leg I'll send to Italy, that arm I'll send to England, my other arm to Scotland, this part to Africa, that part to central Europe etc etc... [I'm quite the brown eyed mutt, no?]  

No, seriously, in the real world us invaders are not going anywhere hence the need for treaty settlements (which, btw, I happen to audit in my profession). 

 

Then this is the common problem of the countries where your granparents were originally from. You should be sent back to your original homeland if natives wish such a thing and its highly possible they would wish to take back their lands which they live on as minority today.

 

 

[cybercoma]

20 hours ago, Boges said:

Christmas trees aren't religious rituals, they're cultural symbols.

Someone better let the "Christ is the Reason" people know this.

[Goddess]

43 minutes ago, Altai said:

You should be sent back to your original homeland if natives wish such a thing and its highly possible they would wish to take back their lands which they live on as minority today.

I'm wondering WHY you are on a Canadian political forum.  You clearly hate Canadians and hate everything about how our country is run.  You contradict yourself constantly - in one thread you are totally against land ownership, in another thread you outline a plan for world domination and in this thread (and others) you advocate all Canadians leaving the country to give it back to the natives (saying they own the land, which you previously state no one owns  ....).

My grandchild is now 7th generation Canadian.  Where exactly would you have us all go to?

[cybercoma]

5 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

Reposting - some seemed to miss this.

Completely irrelevant. These kids aren't doing indigenous ceremonies daily.

[Michael Hardner]

I'm trying to point out the response relative to the two situations.  Also there was some talk, I think, that there would be outrage if something similar happened with regards to Christianity.  I agree that the two situations are not similar.

[DogOnPorch]

14 minutes ago, Goddess said:

I'm wondering WHY you are on a Canadian political forum.  You clearly hate Canadians and hate everything about how our country is run.  You contradict yourself constantly - in one thread you are totally against land ownership, in another thread you outline a plan for world domination and in this thread (and others) you advocate all Canadians leaving the country to give it back to the natives (saying they own the land, which you previously state no one owns  ....).

My grandchild is now 7th generation Canadian.  Where exactly would you have us all go to?

 

The same place as Kurds and Armenians.

[Michael Hardner]

You can PM people if you want to ask them personal questions.

[cybercoma]

1 hour ago, Boges said:

it's funny how Liberals and Progressive work very hard to try and remove all aspects of religion from public schools because of the separation of church and state.

Nice strawman though. I've been arguing this entire thread that the smudging ceremony is fine and I also said students should be exposed to the Catholic mass as well. I don't think kids should be sheltered from religions and cultures in Canada at all. I do believe, as with MH's SK example, that they shouldn't be indoctrinated into a single religion. I'm about as far left as there is on this forum and I didn't even make the argument you're claiming "progressives" make. Try addressing people's actual arguments instead of making up false positions to argue against.

[msj]

1 hour ago, Altai said:

Then this is the common problem of the countries where your granparents were originally from. You should be sent back to your original homeland if natives wish such a thing and its highly possible they would wish to take back their lands which they live on as minority today.
 

 

Um, my original homeland is Canada. 

I was born here. 

Don't think Italy/England/Scotland/German/wherever else is going to say: oh, well Mr. MSJ since your great great great grandparents were born in Europe back in the 1800's then we must accept you back. 

No, seriously, think about this for a minute: I was born in Canada so the only "home" I have ever known is Canada. 

Just because I may pass for a white guy does not mean that a European country is going to accept me. To them I am Canadian. 

Hell, when I fill out a census I put down Canadian and don't bother with the Italian/English/Scottish/First Nation/German/African(?) nonsense because myself and my most recent immediate family (and theirs and so on) have all been born in Canada.  

How far back do we have to go before a Turk will consider us to be true Canadians, I wonder?

Maybe we need some smudge rituals to be accepted?  

 

 

[msj]

1 hour ago, Boges said:

it's funny how Liberals and Progressive work very hard to try and remove all aspects of religion from public schools because of the separation of church and state. But when a minority group tries to peddle their religion, they have to backtrack huge in progressive principals to try and justify it. 

I'm a Liberal/Progressive and resent that you would lump CC and BC Chick, who are obviously NDP SJW types, in with me.

I AM SO OFFENDED!!!!!

[This is a snarky joke, I'm not really offended - I just disagree with them for reasons already outlined. And any reasonable person would agree that my reasons are the best reasons!]

[Michael Hardner]

Folks, stay on topic.  No more personal comments.

[Altai]

1 hour ago, msj said:

Um, my original homeland is Canada. 

I was born here. 

Don't think Italy/England/Scotland/German/wherever else is going to say: oh, well Mr. MSJ since your great great great grandparents were born in Europe back in the 1800's then we must accept you back. 

No, seriously, think about this for a minute: I was born in Canada so the only "home" I have ever known is Canada. 

Just because I may pass for a white guy does not mean that a European country is going to accept me. To them I am Canadian. 

Hell, when I fill out a census I put down Canadian and don't bother with the Italian/English/Scottish/First Nation/German/African(?) nonsense because myself and my most recent immediate family (and theirs and so on) have all been born in Canada.  

How far back do we have to go before a Turk will consider us to be true Canadians, I wonder?

Maybe we need some smudge rituals to be accepted?  

 

 

It may not seem possible but I am talking according to today's understanding of World politics which is based on land ownership. Your granparents came to someone's lands and surrounded it by fences, kicked the real owners out. After long years, grandchildren of the real owners came and want you to leave their lands because it was their grandparent's land. But you say you wont leave it because you was born there. What would happen if you sue each other ? You are the victim of your own grandparents, not anyone else. The possibility of your homelessness is not problem or responsibility of the natives. Probably many countries would accept to take you as refugees. 

[drummindiver]

1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said:

You can PM people if you want to ask them personal questions.

It was rhetorical and on point for the topic. It's a matter of semantics .

[msj]

6 minutes ago, Altai said:

It may not seem possible but I am talking according to today's understanding of World politics which is based on land ownership. Your granparents came to someone's lands and surrounded it by fences, kicked the real owners out. After long years, grandchildren of the real owners came and want you to leave their lands because it was their grandparent's land. But you say you wont leave it because you was born there. What would happen if you sue each other ? You are the victim of your own grandparents, not anyone else. The possibility of your homelessness is not problem or responsibility of the natives. Probably many countries would accept to take you as refugees. 

If we all go back far enough then we should all move back to Africa.  

Maybe we can force smudge ceremonies on them? 

[Altai]

1 hour ago, msj said:

If we all go back far enough then we should all move back to Africa.  

Maybe we can force smudge ceremonies on them? 

No you dont have to. We can accept the last point as your homeland where your ancestors came without invading it but by just discovering it.

[BC_chick]

2 hours ago, Boges said:

it's funny how Liberals and Progressive work very hard to try and remove all aspects of religion from public schools because of the separation of church and state. But when a minority group tries to peddle their religion, they have to backtrack huge in progressive principals to try and justify it. 

It's similar to Liberals placating extremist muslim groups who have very backwards social views, they would never tolerate from WASPs. 

First, the war on Christmas is a sack of lies from the Christian Right, forever victims of their own minds. Corporations figured they can sell more stuff if their employees said happy holidays and next thing you know it's a war on Christianity. Every person I know celebrates Christmas, whether they're black white or some shade in between. It's a cultural event now with its roots in Christianity (who stole it from Pagans). 

Second, context matters. Christians have spent centuries going on crusades and sending missionaries to convert heathens. There were atrocities committed in Canadian schools in the name of Christianity. To this day Christians are at it all over Africa.  

It baffles my mind that you can't see why the two scenarios would be regarded differently. 

I'll spell it out for you - one is indoctrination the other is culturally educational. 

Edited November 19, 2016 by BC_chick

[BC_chick]

1 hour ago, cybercoma said:

Nice strawman though. I've been arguing this entire thread that the smudging ceremony is fine and I also said students should be exposed to the Catholic mass as well. I don't think kids should be sheltered from religions and cultures in Canada at all. I do believe, as with MH's SK example, that they shouldn't be indoctrinated into a single religion. I'm about as far left as there is on this forum and I didn't even make the argument you're claiming "progressives" make. Try addressing people's actual arguments instead of making up false positions to argue against.

Agreed, I also said I'd like my kid to learn about Passover and Eid and spiritual cleansing. 

That's completely different than disallowing Christianity as a curriculum which resulted after centuries of abuse  

 

[eyeball]

6 hours ago, Boges said:

it's funny how Liberals and Progressive work very hard to try and remove all aspects of religion from public schools because of the separation of church and state. But when a minority group tries to peddle their religion, they have to backtrack huge in progressive principals to try and justify it. 

 

Alleged religion...the courts haven't ruled that this isn't simply a case of a culture practice that's more comparable to Thanksgiving Day.

Of course a real progressive would peddle the idea that Smudging Day likewise be declared a paid statutory holiday.

Quote

It's similar to Liberals placating extremist muslim groups who have very backwards social views, they would never tolerate from WASPs.

I think you must have this issue confused with conservatives who love the Muslim LGBTQ community but loathe the Christian equivalent.  

[Guest]

11 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

Reposting - some seemed to miss this.

Not me!

[Guest]

DP Point was already made.

Edited November 19, 2016 by bcsapper

[Guest]

5 hours ago, Altai said:

No you dont have to. We can accept the last point as your homeland where your ancestors came without invading it but by just discovering it.

I emigrated...

[dialamah]

On 11/16/2016 at 8:32 AM, The_Squid said:

I have been part of First Nations' rituals like this quite frequently and they absolutely invoke "the creator" or "spirits" or their ancestors in nearly every one I can remember.   That's religious.  

Thanks for the clarification, then.  

Some interesting posts made in this thread, so while I was a little uncertain at the beginning, the discussion helped me clarify things for myself.   Indoctrination is different from demonstration.  A single religious event at a school, even if the kids take part, is not the same as daily or even weekly religious observances.   Parents should be notified far enough in advance 

If schools taught students about all religions, including extending invitations to practitioners, I would not have a problem with that, even if sometimes the teaching included participation.   Perhaps having kids exposed to the many different ways in which people have tried to explain natural phenomenon and how sacred texts are interpreted so very differently depending among different groups and at different times in history would help them develop better critical thinking skills, and who knows - give up on religious belief altogether.  

 

[msj]

I'd rather have kids participate in science experiments, create and participate in plays, do classroom presentations than partake in religious ceremonies. 

Want to teach them religion?

Let them read the first five books of the OT, a few of the gospels from the NT, selections from the Koran, Bhagavad Gita, Tao te Ching, etc... 

Religion is such a waste of time for children. There is little to be learned from the hateful Bible/Koran.

It is sad that we live in a world where people still need to read this hateful crap to have an appreciation of Ulysses or Paradise Lost. 

In hindsight, I'd have rather lived in a world without that kind of literature if it meant I could live in a world without the Bible/Koran. 

To waste kids time with smudge ceremonies and Catholic masses is particularly funny in a province with ever decreasing instruction days. 

Want to do it? Then do it on your own time when there is plenty of opportunity for parents to ensure they are comfortable with it. 

[cybercoma]

1 hour ago, dialamah said:

If schools taught students about all religions

Schools don't have time to teach students about all 4,200 some odd religions in the world.

[msj]

Rereading the legal documents I find the allegation that Greg Smyth (school superintendent) may have stated something to the effect of "there is more tolerance for Aboriginal religion than your religion. " 

Would certainly explain his rude response (or lack thereof) to the parents complaints (on two counts: the smudge ceremony and the second incident of a prayer given without any letter warning parents).

He was supposed to get back to them by April, 2016 in writting but I understand that he would not want to put such a statement down on paper or in an email. 

Hope this does go to court as it will be excellent reading along with other cases mentioned in those legal documents. 

Highly recommend people take the time to look them up and review them as it is better to read them as primary sources than rely on the snippets and interpreations of some dumb journalist retelling and rehashing them.