Another Mass Shooting

[Moonlight Graham]

This is the part I find most upsetting. I've always had this idea that Muslims who grow up in western countries would embrace western values. My personal interactions with Muslims have been pretty much that. Aside from the aversion to pork, they were pretty normal guys.

But apparently a Muslim guy born in New York and lived all his life in the US decided that he would just up and commit a mass murder in the name of the caliphate. We've seen this before as well-- Canadian-born-and-raised Muslim dudes deciding they had to go to the Middle East to fight for Islam. Converts like Michael Zihaf-Bibeau and John Nutall and Amanda Korody deciding they had to commit mass murder for Allah. Is Islam a magnet for crazy?

Well the terrorists who have attacked the West have essentially all been of a certain extremist fundamentalist sect of Sunni Islam, following the teachings of Qutb and the like. It's like asking why Christianity attracts polygamists when only Mormons and a few other smaller sects do that within Christianity.

[DogOnPorch]

CBC right? What link?

The Quran and Hadiths actually encourage believers to kill homosexuals. Not just that they are going to Hell...

[-1=e^ipi]

Don't worry LGBTQIAP+ people. Justin Trudeau's defence minister told us not to fear ISIS. Sunny Ways!

[kimmy]

CBC right? What link?

I dunno. I just saw Wendy Mesley talking about it in an ad during the hockey game.

-k

[Moonlight Graham]

Back to the crux of the argument people will use based on their agenda. Gun problem? Radical Muslim Problem? Neither? or Both?

It's both. Think of it this way: the Muslim guy who attacked the soldiers at the DND recruiting centre a couple of months ago in Toronto used a knife instead of a gun; the Muslim who did the Parliament Hill/War Memorial attacks in Ottawa used a lever-action hunting rifle; the attacks a couple of days earlier in Quebec had the Muslim guy use their car to hit 2 soldiers.

I think 2 died in total among those 3 attacks.

[Guest]

The Quran and Hadiths actually encourage believers to kill homosexuals. Not just that they are going to Hell...

I dunno. I just saw Wendy Mesley talking about it in an ad during the hockey game.

-k

Yes I know. That was a comment about the CBC, not Islam or homophobia.,

[-1=e^ipi]

This is the part I find most upsetting. I've always had this idea that Muslims who grow up in western countries would embrace western values. My personal interactions with Muslims have been pretty much that. Aside from the aversion to pork, they were pretty normal guys.

Your interaction with muslims has been way too limited then.

[DogOnPorch]

Yes I know. That was a comment about the CBC, not Islam or homophobia.,

Yes...but, as I note: I can already show you the link between Islam and homosexuality...

http://sunnah.com/abudawud/40

See: Reference : Sunan Abi Dawud 4462 (near the bottom)...these are part of the Hadiths. The sayings of Mohammad.

[Guest]

Yes...but, as I note: I can already show you the link between Islam and homosexuality...

http://sunnah.com/abudawud/40

See: Reference : Sunan Abi Dawud 4462 (near the bottom)...these are part of the Hadiths. The sayings of Mohammad.

Yes, but my point was that the CBC wouldn't be able to find it.

[DogOnPorch]

Yes, but my point was that the CBC wouldn't be able to find it.

The CBC does have an agenda...

As well, as I've harped on about before, our own incredulity won't allow us to believe that good Muslims actually believe homosexuals should be killed...not just that Allah is going to burn them in Hell.

[Guest]

The CBC does have an agenda...

As well, as I've harped on about before, our own incredulity won't allow us to believe that good Muslims actually believe homosexuals should be killed...not just that Allah is going to burn them in Hell.

I did wonder about that Imam's statement after the shooting. He never mentioned the LGBT status of the victims. Maybe he has by now.

[kimmy]

ya ya, that's right... that's what was being laughed at! Certainly not the right-wing charge to, per norm, attach this to the broader Muslim populace... that's not what was being made light of - nope, not at all. And my highlighting that tweet of Trump's was just me standing resolute and supporting the Trump ban!

but by-the-by, have you suddenly found your 'gay-legs'? If so, good on ya - better late than never, hey!

.

The broader Muslim populace invited this "scholar" to speak at an Orlando mosque.

As you watch this piece of garbage speak, ponder whether he seems insane or mentally unstable. Evil, for sure. But insane? Millions of Muslims around the world believe the same thing. It's easy to find clips of other Imams saying the same thing. In some Muslim countries the execution of gay people is an official state policy. In others, it's imprisonment rather than execution. Is it reasonable to suggest that millions upon millions of Muslims, including clerics and scholars and entire governments, are all mentally unstable? Is it reasonable to suggest that Omar Mateen must be mentally unstable for believing the same thing that millions of his brethren also believe?

Likewise: is it reasonable to deny that Islam itself has a serious problem with LGBT people when Muslim scholars and clerics and governments around the world share the belief that Omar Mateen put into action last night?

-k

[Moonlight Graham]

Likewise: is it reasonable to deny that Islam itself has a serious problem with LGBT people when Muslim scholars and clerics and governments around the world share the belief that Omar Mateen put into action last night?

It's not just Muslim governments, but developing countries in general have major problems with LGBT people. It's difficult for LGBT couples to go on vacation for example, they have to be careful where they go based on the laws of foreign countries. Progressive thought on LGBT people is pretty new, even in the West. What would most Canadians say about homosexuals back in the 1950's?

It's not like Islam is alone in condemning homosexuality, most of Christianity does too (rot in hell!).

Edited June 13, 2016 by Moonlight Graham

[TimG]

It's not like Islam is alone in condemning homosexuality, most of Christianity does too (rot in hell!).

Except built into the Christian creed is a message to 'love the sinner, hate the sin' which is a little different from the Mohammed's clear instructions to stone gays caught in the act. Edited June 13, 2016 by TimG

[msj]

Some Christians are pretty terrible when it comes to gays: http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2016/06/12/christian-pastor-celebrates-nightclub-massacre-theres-50-less-pedophiles-in-this-world/

But, of course, these are not "real Christians" just like, to the regressive left and Muslims, today's hater/terrorist is not a "real Muslim."

-----

In case it's not clear: all religious and political extremists can go forth and multiply themselves.

Leave the rest of us secularists alone.

Edited June 13, 2016 by msj

[eyeball]

Is Islam a magnet for crazy?

-k

Probably not. People who have a break from reality often incorporate elements of what's happening in the world around them into their delusions, people don't become mentally ill in a vacuum. He also used steroids according to his former wife who claims he also abused her physically. It sounds like he was a fairly typical potential time bomb, even mediocre. I suspect society is filled with people like this and more than most people like to imagine. Mercifully most of these bombs fizzle out when they're primed but under certain unpredictable conditions they do go off. It was by far the easy ability to obtain such a ridiculously deadly weapon that contributed so greatly to the carnage.

[BC_chick]

The broader Muslim populace invited this "scholar" to speak at an Orlando mosque.

As you watch this piece of garbage speak, ponder whether he seems insane or mentally unstable. Evil, for sure. But insane? Millions of Muslims around the world believe the same thing. It's easy to find clips of other Imams saying the same thing. In some Muslim countries the execution of gay people is an official state policy. In others, it's imprisonment rather than execution. Is it reasonable to suggest that millions upon millions of Muslims, including clerics and scholars and entire governments, are all mentally unstable? Is it reasonable to suggest that Omar Mateen must be mentally unstable for believing the same thing that millions of his brethren also believe?

Likewise: is it reasonable to deny that Islam itself has a serious problem with LGBT people when Muslim scholars and clerics and governments around the world share the belief that Omar Mateen put into action last night?

-k

Thinking and doing are two different things. Every single Muslim could salivate at the thought of killing gays (as I'm sure many Christian fundies do), but the difference is that most don't act on it.

This guy had a history of mental instability and violently beating his wife on a daily basis. US officials have said that even though he claimed to be connected to ISIS, he was acting alone.

The issue doesn't seem to clear-cut between Islamic terrorism because there are elements of hate-crime and mass-shooting involved as well (the desire to kill as many people as possible). Throw in the easy access to assault rifles, and it's difficult to say it was one of the contributing factors (Islam) was the deciding factor.

It played a part, of course, but it wasn't the only part.

The guy is a gay-hating wackjob using terrorist tactics, but in many ways he also similar to mass shooting killers who are simply mentally unstable with an appetite for death.

Edited June 13, 2016 by BC_chick

[Guest]

Some Christians are pretty terrible when it comes to gays: http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2016/06/12/christian-pastor-celebrates-nightclub-massacre-theres-50-less-pedophiles-in-this-world/

But, of course, these are not "real Christians" just like, to the regressive left and Muslims, today's hater/terrorist is not a "real Muslim."

He's a real Christian if he says he is. And his views are Christian views if he says they are. They just happen to be different from the views of many other Christians. Today's shooter was a Muslim. He did what he did because of his Muslim views. (At last press, anyway. If it turns out tomorrow that he's a Buddhist I'll acknowledge such) They just happen to be different from the views of many other Muslims. The numbers in both cases are up for debate.

Edited June 13, 2016 by bcsapper

[BC_chick]

And your most earnest desire is that Canada do absolutely nothing to lessen the number of religious conservatives who despise gays from coming and living in Canada, right?

You're starting on the false premise that some people want religious conservatives in the first place. "Muslim" is a very broad word. For many it's nominal, and that's about it. For others, it's a step higher with views abhorrent to some of us, but thoughts alone are not a crime.

It's the dangerous ones we don't want and there is really no measuring stick for it. You think banning anything "Muslim" is an achievable task, then go for it.

Elaborate on your idea of implementation because none of us want to fundies here.

[msj]

For others, it's a step higher with views abhorrent to some of us, but thoughts alone are not a crime.

It's the dangerous ones we don't want and there is really no measuring stick for it. You think banning anything "Muslim" is an achievable task, then go for it.

Elaborate on your idea of implementation because none of us want to fundies here.

The funny thing is that we should not be banning anything since it just encourages people to take it up.

Changing some things though, like no more tax breaks for churches/mosques/synagogues - religion is not a charity, it's a cancer that does not deserve tax breaks. Nor do clergy deserve special tax breaks (living allowances) that others are not entitled to.

Etc etc.

People have the right to think what they want but society should not be subsidizing these freaks no matter how benign and "loving" and "peaceful" they tell us they are.

Cuz they ain't no matter what brand they call themselves.

[msj]

But to be clear: if only we knew where this Wahabi death cult originated, and who funds it....

https://twitter.com/rudyhavenstein/status/742205245879517184

[hint: we do every time we fill up our tanks]

Edited June 13, 2016 by msj

[Hal 9000]

It's getting sad that every time this happens those on the left have to run around and find any aspect or the smallest detail to try and disprove that the root problem is radical islam.

When we all woke up to the horrific news, we all knew it would be a muslim - didn't we?

[msj]

The root problem can involve a combination of Islam, access to guns, homophobia, and mental illness all at the same time.

Sadly, history tells us it does not take much for Christians or fascists or communists to also behave badly based on their beliefs.

Which is why any stupid extremist beliefs must be called out for being stupid and extremist and not acceptable, nor subsidized nor condoned, in a civilized world.

Edited June 13, 2016 by msj

[msj]

Sadly, history tells us it does not take much for Chrisitans or fascists or communists to also behave badly based on their beliefs.

Which is why any stupid extremist beliefs must be called out for being stupid and extremist and not acceptable, nor subsidized nor condoned, in a civilized world.

So when the Lt Gov of Texas, a Christian, puts up a tweet that states: Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. Galatians 6:7 ... well he deserves to be criticized for sympathizing with the enemy.

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2016/06/12/texas-lt-governor-dan-patrick-god-cannot-be-mocked-a-man-reaps-what-he-sows/

Which is to say, hate gays if you must, just don't give comfort to terrorists who will actually go beyond the pale and take action.

In this way, this Christian is no different than all of the Muslims who rejoice when this event is spread in their local news.

Where's the Pew poll showing these Christian fundies holding similar disgusting beliefs as Muslims and, therefore, providing comfort and sanitizing this type of behaviour?

Edited June 13, 2016 by msj

[Hal 9000]

The root problem can involve a combination of Islam, access to guns, homophobia, and mental illness all at the same time.

Sadly, history tells us it does not take much for Chrisitans or fascists or communists to also behave badly based on their beliefs.

Which is why any stupid extremist beliefs must be called out for being stupid and extremist and not acceptable, nor subsidized nor condoned, in a civilized world.

He was muslim - which means that yes, he was homophobic. He was a muslim so yes, he abused his wife - this isn't mentally ill, this is Islam. He wanted to kill gays, so he got a gun, would the conversation be different had he used a bomb?

But it wasn't a christian, fascist or communist, and this morning when you heard of a terrorist attack, you didn't actually think it was either of those groups...did you?