Zionism's influence over Western politics

[marcus]

The defense industry? The energy lobby?

No doubt that the Israel lobby is immensely powerful in the US though. The academic article is a must-read for everyone: http://mearsheimer.uchicago.edu/pdfs/IsraelLobby.pdf

I agree that they have a lot of influence, but not to the extent that the Israeli lobby does. This is matched with the millions of dollars given to politicians in the U.S. by "Israel First" billionaires like Sheldon Adelson and Haim Saban.

[Rue]

The defense industry? The energy lobby?

No doubt that the Israel lobby is immensely powerful in the US though. The academic article is a must-read for everyone: http://mearsheimer.uchicago.edu/pdfs/IsraelLobby.pdf

How long are you going to flog the Israeli lobby bs.. If After 8 years of Obama you can not figure out who the Iranian lobby is, how powerful they are and how anti Israel and pro Iran Obama's regime is all you evidence is your denial an dbias.

Big bad Israel lobby. Right.

Anti semitic drivel.

Jews control Washington.

Here go deny and ignore this be my guest keep shoveling out the sheeyit that Jews control Washington:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mort-zuckerman/debunking-the-myth-of-the_b_65707.html

Here let me take some excerpts from the following for you to deny and ignore:

http://www.aish.com/jw/me/48937437.html

"Jewish groups are influential. They also largely agree that the United States should support Israel. But the notion that they have anything like a uniform agenda and that U.S. policy in Israel and the Middle East is the result of this influence is simply wrong."

"Anyone who thinks that Jewish groups constitute a homogeneous "lobby" ought to spend some time dealing with them."

"they (those who stereotype Jews and the Israeli lobby has having more power than Iran or any other lobby group) are wrong because the U.S. government is responsible for the policies it adopts, not any other state or any of the myriad lobbies and groups that battle daily -- sometimes with lies -- to win America's support are wrong because the U.S. government is responsible for the policies it adopts, not any other state or any of the myriad lobbies and groups that battle daily -- sometimes with lies -- to win America's support."

The above quotes are from Sec. of State George Shultz. Further quotes are in the next response by me.

Edited June 17, 2016 by Rue

[Rue]

The purpose of this thread is to advance the myth that Jews a.k.a. Zionists, a.k.a. Jews who may be Israeli or are not Israeli but believe Jews should have the right to have their own state like Muslims have Muslim states or Britain is an Anglican State, or the Vatican City, a Catholic state have some magic power over the US and the Western world.

It is a stale recycled anti semitic myth that has advanced for centuries how Jews can be lumped into this powerful entity that controls minds.

This anti semitic drivel that chooses only to discuss the powers of Zionists, a.k.a. Jews to influence of course ignores that Jews in lobby groups do nothing different and are no more powerful than Muslims or Christians.

The last time I looked the vast majority of people in the NRA one of the most powerful if not most powerful lobby groups in Washington were not controlled by Jews. Neither is ARP or the Chinese, South Korean, Japanese, or British lobbies. In fact I believe the United Kingdom is the largest loby group in the US and in terms of influence one only need to look at China and how its been able to infiltrate and dominate US markets through lobbying and predatory pricing.

But hey on this forum and in this thread, lumping Jews into stereotypes of powerful Zionists controlling the US never loses stream with anti semites, pro Iranian apologists and the usual arm chair leftists who have no clue who the lobby groups are in the US let alone what the Iranian lobby is.

Dah jooz. Its dah jooz. No other lobby group influences quite like dah jooz says the myth,.

I ask how can anyone unless they are brain dead, not have noticed in the last 8 years Obama has been literally at war with Israel to the point of insulting its Prime Minister repeatedly out loud for everyone to hear.

How could anyone pretend there is no Saudi and Iranian lobbies in Washington let alone an oil cartel lobby that cow tows ti Saudi Arabia, the UAE and Kuwait?

Where are these arm chair geniuses to explain how Iran was able to get the deal it did with the US if Zionists are so powerful?

What world do they live on-well I can tell you-the world where we can lump and stereotype Jews, but ignore any other lobby group.

Here are some of the words from George P. Shultz, US secretary of state from 1982 to 1989, excerpted
from his introduction to The Deadliest Lies: The Israel lobby and the myth of
Jewish control by Abraham Foxman (Palgrave Macmillan) and reproduced in the US News and World Report, September 15, 2007.

"Israel is a free, democratic, open, and relentlessly self-analytical place. To hear
harsh criticism of Israel’s policies and leaders, listen to the Israelis. So
questioning Israel for its actions is legitimate, but lies are something else.

Throughout human history, they have been used not only to vilify but to
establish a basis for cruel and inhuman acts. The catalog of lies about Jews is
long and astonishingly crude, matched only by the suffering that has followed
their promulgation.

Defaming the Jews by disputing their rightful place among the peoples of the
world has been a long-running, well-documented, and disgraceful series of
episodes across history. Again and again a time has come when legitimate
criticism slips across an invisible line into what might be called the “badlands,”
a place where those who should be regarded as worthy adversaries in debate
are turned into scapegoats, targets, all-purpose objects of blame."

[Rue]

How influential are Zionists hmmmm?

Here are some of the most influential lobby groups in Washington go check it out for yourself:

1-the military industrial complex

4-NRA

3-ARP

4-the technology lobby, i.e., Google, Apple, Amazon, and Microsoft

5-the mining lobby

6-agri-business lobby

7-oil lobby

8-banking and financial lobby

9-pharmaceutical lobby.

Now ask one person on this forum advancing this canard that Zionists are some magical force on Capital Hill, ask them what terms of measurement they used to determine the level of influence Zionists have compared to the above 9 lobby groups.

Then ask them to explain how they determined that Zionists were more influential than these national lobbies in Washington:

Britain

Belgium

China

Taiwan

South Korea

Japan

Canada

I would love to know. See the key to spewing crap about Zionists is it depends on you to advance a stereotype with zero proof just inneuendo.

No comparison is done as to the amount of money spent by the lobby group, or the amount of projects influenced.

Zero proof. Just inneuendos. Why-because the people so quick to assume they are experts on the lobby groups have appointed themselves experts on Zionist influence because they read articles on the web, the same web Jews are supposed to control.

Go on have just one of these Zionist experts tell you how they quantified the power of Zionists in Washington compared to the above lobbies.

Yah like you will get any evidence.

But then that is it, when it comes to Jews and Zionists, subjective innuendo is passed off as discussion on this forum and that is why I call it out for what it is, anti semitic drivel that if targeted against any other group of people would be called out as discriminatory and bigoted.

Edited June 17, 2016 by Rue

[Rue]

There are np shortage of articles that tell you AIPAC is powerful. AIPAC is but one organization. Common sense alone would tell you it has no magic powers.

What does happen and is clear in the voting is this-when AIPAC is able to line up its interests as being the same as the military industrial complex's interests its been able to piggy back along with their influence. On its own, when its policies have ot line up with that complex, it has no special power.

Its no secret-the military industrial complex which hires millions of Americans who then spend money having spin off effect on so many other businesses is the no. 1 source of income generation in the US. That has nothing to do with Jews. What Israel was able to do, is form military technology research projects with the US calling on expertise Israel has the US doesn't to improve US military hardware which then is sold to other nations.

The spin off effect for the military industrial complex having Israel do some of its research is that Israel can provide it expertise on things it does not have and in return Israel can get access to US military equipment in versions other nations can not.

But does that make Zionists special or powerful? No more than the Saudi lobby or oil cartel or anyone else. The US does what benefits itself. It is not about to do any deal with Israel that does not bring it back benefits. Have one expert on Zionist influence explain how the US has not benefitted from the technology and research Israel has provided it.

These geniuses have no clue if Zionists have influence its because they work as research scientists, doctors, engineers, computer experts and through that work develop technology that has great value to the US and the world.

Zionist influence-you bet. If you want a list of Israeli scientists, doctors, academics, engineers, etc., and the inventions they are responsible for and the new treatments they have created the list is there and you bet for a country Israel's side it dwarfs the contributions of any Arab nation but on this thread that is lumped in with this stereotype Zionist power on Capital Hill.

Its ignored just like the fact that Israel has become so dependent on the US military industrial network for its industries when its tried to make deals with China, Europe, etc., the US has stepped in and said, no you can't you can only trade with us or we take away our deals.

If Israel had the influence it had on the US that could not or would not happen. It does each day. That relationship is a 2 way thing. Israel's influence? Did any of these experts think that perhaps the US has more of an influence on Israel then Israel does on it? Can their brains fathom that concept?

Of course not. In their world 5 million Jews all think the same, are Zionist, and spread telepathic messages to American Jews who then sent telepathic messages to Senators and Congressmen and presto the US is a Jewish zombie state.

Crap. Absolute crap and the crap will be repeated as all anti semitic drivel is over and over by people who call themselves progressive and engage in the most basic and primitive of negative stereotyping and bigotry there is.

[Rue]

http://ceoworld.biz/2014/10/22/powerful-lobbyists-advocacy-groups-us-top-lobbying-organizations-list-2014

Take a look at who some of the most powerful individual lobbyists are on Capital Hill. Sorry to disappoint. Not a Zionist Jew among them working for Israel.

Kablam.

[Moonlight Graham]

I agree that they have a lot of influence, but not to the extent that the Israeli lobby does. This is matched with the millions of dollars given to politicians in the U.S. by "Israel First" billionaires like Sheldon Adelson and Haim Saban.

What concrete evidence or statistics do you have that would make you say this big lobby has more influence than that big lobby etc.?

[Rue]

Now I ask will the same people who started this thread start one asking about the Iran lobby? Hmmmm?

iraniansforum.com/lobby

Oh hey now look who has media influence I thought only dah Jooz did:

http://iranpoliticsclub.net/politics/iran-lobby/index.htm

Say now will the people discussing the Zionist power explain this:

http://www.tabletmag.com/jewish-news-and-politics/193235/meet-the-iran-lobby

Oh come now Zionist experts read the above and explain how if the Zionist lobby is so powerful it couldn't

stop the nuclear deal with Iran. Go on explain, please.

https://www.mojahedin.org/newsen/28334/Iranian-regime-lobby-Tehran-men-in-Washington

http://www.centerforsecuritypolicy.org/2009/02/25/rise-of-the-iran-lobby/

http://usatransnationalreport.org/iran-lobby/

Yep you think the Zionist experts on this forum on this thread will acknowledge the Iranian lobby and its influence.

What should I start a thread about the influence of the Iranian facist regime on the US, the West, hey this forum? Hmmm?

Oh come on now have the "Iranian lobbyists" on this forum explain this article lol:

http://www.jerusalemonline.com/news/world-news/around-the-globe/analysis-the-iran-lobbys-influence-over-the-obama-administration-19329

Oh my gawd it talks of the Iran lobby influence. Imagine that. One exists.

[Rue]

AIPAC by aligning with the same interests as the military industrial complex can ride on their coat tails to a degree of influence most certainly.

AIPAC is successful at the grassroots level reaching out to CHRISTIANS who have a powerful network of Israel supporters and those Christian supporters of Israel are very influential on lobbying their senators and congressmen.

The above two techniques make AIPAC influential. My point is no more influential than so many other groups.

My point is the Iran lobby is very influential and the same can be said of the Saudi one which controls the oil lobby which is a huge power in Washington.

My point is Zionists have no more influence than anyone else. The lobby groups swarm capital hill competing for the attention of senators and congressmen and anyone who has statistics to prove Zionists do it better I would love to see.

Right now most articles put the NRA and ARP and the Military InIndustrial Complex right up there with AIPAC after that-I take such articles with a grain of salt. They have no statistics-such articles are based on stereotype assumptions.

To actually show stats to measure influence on voting is not accurate because people can be voting for more reasons than the one the stat assumes is the reason for the vote.

Stats can show a trend of bias for one group over another.

The point is the very same senators and congressmen stereotyped as being pro Israel voted in favour of the Iran nuclear deal.

The Jewish community was split in the US over the issue-many Jews sided with Obama over AIPAC and/or Netanyahu-these stereotypes as to how people think and vote and influence are misleading.

Yes Christian networks of evangelists tend to support Israel in the so called Christian Zionist lobby but if they are turned of by Donald Trump which many are they may swing to Clinton or not vote. Anyone who think Clinton is in the hip pocket of AIPAC needs to read what she has said about Israel prior to her running for office. She is no friend of Israel or Iran. Its accurate to say she can't stand either. Hilary Clinton was very pro Yasir Arafat.

[marcus]

What concrete evidence or statistics do you have that would make you say this big lobby has more influence than that big lobby etc.?

The money and the policies. AIPAC literally writes the policies for its prostitutes when it comes to Israel. This is the case at both the state and federal level.

You yourself pointed to this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Israel_Lobby_and_U.S._Foreign_Policy

Mearsheimer and Walt argue that "No lobby has managed to divert U.S. foreign policy as far from what the American national interest would otherwise suggest, while simultaneously convincing Americans that U.S. and Israeli interests are essentially identical". They argue that "in its basic operations, it is no different from interest groups like the Farm Lobby, steel and textile workers, and other ethnic lobbies. What sets the Israel Lobby apart is its extraordinary effectiveness." According to Mearsheimer and Walt, the "loose coalition" that makes up the Lobby has "significant leverage over the Executive branch", as well as the ability to make sure that the "Lobby's perspective on Israel is widely reflected in the mainstream media." They claim that the American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC) in particular has a "stranglehold on the U.S. Congress", due to its "ability to reward legislators and congressional candidates who support its agenda, and to punish those who challenge it."

[Argus]

The MSM has had a terrible track record.

And yet is still about nine thousand times more accurate than your fringe websites which afflict you with your conspiracy theories and beliefs.

[Rue]

The money and the policies. AIPAC literally writes the policies for its prostitutes when it comes to Israel. This is the case at both the state and federal level.

You yourself pointed to this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Israel_Lobby_and_U.S._Foreign_Policy

Mearsheimer and Walt argue that "No lobby has managed to divert U.S. foreign policy as far from what the American national interest would otherwise suggest, while simultaneously convincing Americans that U.S. and Israeli interests are essentially identical". They argue that "in its basic operations, it is no different from interest groups like the Farm Lobby, steel and textile workers, and other ethnic lobbies. What sets the Israel Lobby apart is its extraordinary effectiveness." According to Mearsheimer and Walt, the "loose coalition" that makes up the Lobby has "significant leverage over the Executive branch", as well as the ability to make sure that the "Lobby's perspective on Israel is widely reflected in the mainstream media." They claim that the American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC) in particular has a "stranglehold on the U.S. Congress", due to its "ability to reward legislators and congressional candidates who support its agenda, and to punish those who challenge it."

Congrats. The words you claim are evidence clearly are not. They provide a subjective opinion. Not only that, they do not assert what you do. No one is saying AIPAC like any other lobby organization has no influence or doesn't influence. Of course it does. No one argues its not an effective lobby.

What you and others have been called out on is trying to suggest the lobbying AIPAC does is MORE influential or different or more powerful then what the Iranian or Saudi lobbies do or what the Chinese, South Korean.,Chinese, Japanese lobbies do and for that matter Eire's or Belgium's or Germany's or Canada's.

No one is arguing AIPAC is not effective. What I and others call you out on is you have zero proof or evidence to show because it might be effective its more powerful or influential than the Arab or Muslim lobbies. You have zero prof of that. Zero. The words you show do no prove what you have aserted.

You ahve zero evidence, zero proof. You single out AIPAC to advance the recycled anti semitic canard that Jews are more powerful than non Jews and have magic powers that hold the US captive.

Providing a subjective comment, removing it from its actual context as to what its referring to then suggest it proves your u nbased, unproven, bigoted, discriminatory smeer about Zionists no AIPAC is epic failure. You try change the subject. The very words DO NOT prove what you commenced this thread to do.

OOOh dah Joooh the mighty powerful Joooo aka Zionist brain washes America. That was your agenda. What a lame, broken, useless stereotype you flog and then try restate as saying because AIPAC feels it does a good job, your anti semitic stereotype of Zionists controlling the US must be true.

8 years of Obama pissing on Israel and proving he ignored the AIPAC lobby is blatantly pro Muslim Brotherhod and Iran and you still cling to the America controlled by Israel myth.

Anti semitic drivel.

Edited June 19, 2016 by Rue

[marcus]

You ahve zero evidence, zero proof. You single out AIPAC to advance the recycled anti semitic canard that Jews are more powerful than non Jews and have magic powers that hold the US captive.

Actually, the proof has been given repeatedly. You just choose to not deal with it. The amount of money by pro-Zionist lobby groups, the pro-Zionist bills, written by Zionist lobby groups are all proof and an inconvenient truth.

The Israeli First lobby groups are hurting America and more and more Americans are waking up to it. It's a movement that no amount of denial will stop.

I just hope that logic and reason will prevail and people don't mix the ugliness of Zionism with Judaism. Just as I hope that actions of ISIS, Wahabism and Salafism will not confuse people with what Islam is and what Muslims are about.

[GostHacked]

And yet is still about nine thousand times more accurate than your fringe websites which afflict you with your conspiracy theories and beliefs.

Actually I get most of my news via MSM, how the hell would you know what sites I visit to get my information?

[bush_cheney2004]

...The Israeli First lobby groups are hurting America and more and more Americans are waking up to it. It's a movement that no amount of denial will stop.

Actually, "America's" support has never been stronger. It is interesting that the enemies of "Zionism" invest so much and depend so heavily on what the Americans do...which of course is the very thing they are criticizing.

[Argus]

Actually I get most of my news via MSM, how the hell would you know what sites I visit to get my information?

I base it on your being a conspiracy buff.

[GostHacked]

I base it on your being a conspiracy buff.

Interesting, so no matter what I put forth even using MSM you will still consider me a person who wears tin foil.

That's very presumptuous of you.

[Argus]

Interesting, so no matter what I put forth even using MSM you will still consider me a person who wears tin foil.

That's very presumptuous of you.

So I'm a judgemental bastard. I can deal with that.

[GostHacked]

So I'm a judgemental bastard. I can deal with that.

I wonder if that can cause issues when attempting to debate others.

[taxme]

Someone who trusts fringe groups and wild, way out there web sites, but doesn't trust mainstream news sources is someone who winds up believing a whole bunch of really nonsensical stuff.

Chuckle-chuckle. Thank gawd for those fringe groups. I would probably be just as dumb as the 90% of Canadians roaming around out there if it were not for the alternative media. Like I have said numerous times before. To know one side of the story is to know nothing at all. In this day and age it is hard to believe that people like yourself still trust the mainstream elite corporate lame duck media who only parrots what Reuters or Associated Press tells them to say. I guess that you still believe the MSM that it was 19 Arabs that brought the Twin Towers down, eh? Incredible indeed.

[taxme]

I base it on your being a conspiracy buff.

"Conspiracy buff"? So, do you believe that the bringing down of the Twin Towers was not part of a conspiracy?

[jacee]

Chuckle-chuckle. Thank gawd for those fringe groups. I would probably be just as dumb as the 90% of Canadians roaming around out there if it were not for the alternative media.

It's not working.

[Argus]

I wonder if that can cause issues when attempting to debate others.

Only insofar as others get outraged at my plain spoken and unflattering views of their favorite causes and are incapable of replying with any degree of intelligence.

[Argus]

Chuckle-chuckle. Thank gawd for those fringe groups. I would probably be just as dumb as the 90% of Canadians roaming around out there if it were not for the alternative media.

You mean you wouldn't be as aware of the international cabals of Jews who are ruling the world?

[GostHacked]

Only insofar as others get outraged at my plain spoken and unflattering views of their favorite causes and are incapable of replying with any degree of intelligence.

I don't get outraged, disappointing yes, but not outraged.