Britain Sets Date for EU Referendum -- Brexit

[The_Squid]

More than a million and a half refugees from the middle east and north africa have landed in Europe in the last two years, and they keep coming. Most of them are being allowed to stay. That means they'll be granted citizenship in some European country or other, and once they have citizenship they're free to move to the UK. Why should they? Because the UK has one of the better economies in Europe and because English is one of the world's more universal second languages. Not many in the Middle East speak Italian or German, but quite a few speak passable English

And leaving the EU has absolutely nothing to do with how many of these migrants Great Britain accepts. Britain has complete say over how many of these people come to their country.

That's the type of ignorance that the pro-Brexit people fed upon and took advantage of.

https://www.irinnews.org/analysis/2016/06/27/what-does-brexit-mean-refugees

[jbg]

The Brits did very well in 1812 considering they were almost always outnumbered. Except for the Battle of Chateauguay which was won by Canadian militia, it was British regulars and their Indian allies who kicked your asses back across the Niagara and St Lawrence. North America was a sideshow for the British who were locked in a life and death struggle with Napoleon at the time.

The EU certainly has its problems but in the minds of many, this was an attempt to turn the clock back to a mythical time that never actually existed. If you look at Britain between WW1 and its entry into the EU, it wasn't anywhere near the bed of roses they would like to believe.

It was no bed of roses but the evolving EU is not good. Why leap from the frying pan into the fire?

The underlying problem is that Europe overall is statist and whatever solution is more free market is better.

[Wilber]

You really don't have a clue what's going on.

The wealthy win because more mistrustful countries simply mean more shells for the putrescently wealthy to move their money and influence around under.

We should have had a one world government in place before creating a one world economy but since most human beings usually like doing things ass backwards...it is what it is...FUBAR.

The Rothchilds are worth over 500 trillion eh. They sure are wealthy mothers, thats ten times the entire combined GDP's of the US, EU, China and Japan. Actually the family is estimated to be worth around 400 billion. Not peanuts but it was their wealth an access to it that prevented an EU two hundred years ago ruled by a guy called Napoleon. Taxme needs to apply a little more critical thinking before he repeats this stuff.

We have the youth of Britain blaming the old for rejecting the EU and messing with their future. We have young people on this side of the pond (and on this forum) cheering them for leaving and sticking it to the establishment. This geezer who thinks leaving was a bad idea is just shaking his head. Just a bunch of angry frustrated people flailing around without a clue what they are doing.

Edited June 28, 2016 by Wilber

[Argus]

I am surprised by the number of posters who are convinced that the UK is going to leave the EU. That referendum was a vote on what the majority of those in the UK would like. It is not binding. The more time that goes on the more likely it is becoming that there will be a snap election, another government will take power and leaving the UK will be off the table.

Another Leftist telling us that democracy doesn't matter.

Unsurprisingly, also a supporter of voter reform in Canada, because every vote matters.

[Argus]

The globalization of labour may not directly benefit you, but doesn't it benefit humanity in other countries? That job sent to India certainly benefits that Indian worker and her family.

We cannot have it both ways. Are we progressive or not?

Being progressive shouldn't mean being suicidal. Do you want to sell all your goods and send the money overseas to help others? I have no wish to do so.

Government policies should primarily benefit Canada, not other people in other countries.

Edited June 28, 2016 by Argus

[Big Guy]

Another Leftist telling us that democracy doesn't matter.

Unsurprisingly, also a supporter of voter reform in Canada, because every vote matters.

I suggest that you first learn how a democracy works and then perhaps you will understand what decisions are "binding" and which are not. Since you have shown reluctance in the past to do any research or homework I will give you a hint:

Referendums are not binding. What parliament passes are binding.

Any government can overturn, augment, change, update any legislation passed by a previous government.

There are posters who have views that might be considered to have leftist views on any particular issue, there are posters who have views that might be considered rightist on any particular issue and there are posters who are clueless and post only to get attention.

I do not think that you have leftist views on any particular issue or have views that might be considered rightist on any particular issue.

[Argus]

And leaving the EU has absolutely nothing to do with how many of these migrants Great Britain accepts. Britain has complete say over how many of these people come to their country.

That's the type of ignorance that the pro-Brexit people fed upon and took advantage of.

https://www.irinnews.org/analysis/2016/06/27/what-does-brexit-mean-refugees

Speaking of ignorance. It's like you didn't even read what I wrote before repeating the same things I replied to.

Once again, while Britain does have the ability to refuse refugees it does not, under the EU, have the ability to refuse European citizens from traveling there and settling down. Is that clear enough? Do I have to repeat it a third time with colorful diagrams?

[Argus]

I suggest that you first learn how a democracy works

It works by following the wishes of the majority of voters. David Cameron understands that, despite the cost to him personally. Why is it none of you lefties do?

[Argus]

These trade deals-- be it the European Union allowing cheap eastern European labor to come right to Britain, or NAFTA and the TPP allowing businesses even more avenues to offshore labor costs-- are primarily a coordinated attack on the value of labor.

They aren't supposed to be and aren't sold that way. But it was no surprise that London, filled with the professional classes who most benefited from being members of the EU, voted heavily to remain while virtually everywhere else in England voted to leave. The professional classes got the benefits, and the rest got eroding sovereignty and new, lower cost competitors for their jobs.

The idea of a free trade deal involving China is ludicrous, given the difference in their labour, manufacturing and energy costs (no worries about pollution or safety rules), and their habit of ignoring or blatantly cheating on every single trade deal they've signed to date. Canadian companies which benefit from 'trade' with China are largely those who build manufacturing facilities in China to employ Chinese, not those shipping goods from Canada, so their 'trade' doesn't help Canadians so much as it helps their stock owners. The only thing China wants from us is raw resources.

Likewise NAFTA between Canada and the US was somewhat even handed since we both have roughly the same standard of living and wages. It began to go south with the increasing number of 'right to work' states, and then with bringing Mexico into the agreement. Why build cars in Canada when you can build them in Mexico or Texas without worrying about expensive labour, pensions, or pollution laws?

[-TSS-]

I don't really understand the logic behind the move by Cameron to resign after the disappointing result but at the same time announcing that new leader will be elected in September especially when the Tories' MP-group elects the party-leader. Now the country is in a state of limbo for 2-3 months without an effective government.

To make matters more complicated, the leader of the main opposition-party the Labour-party was sacked by his party for failing to promote the remain-campaign enough. The brexit got a lot of support in the traditional heartlands of the Labour-party.

So in less than a week both main parties in the UK have gone into meltdown and the situation is a mess.

[kactus]

I suggest that you first learn how a democracy works and then perhaps you will understand what decisions are "binding" and which are not. Since you have shown reluctance in the past to do any research or homework I will give you a hint:

Referendums are not binding. What parliament passes are binding.

Any government can overturn, augment, change, update any legislation passed by a previous government.

There are posters who have views that might be considered to have leftist views on any particular issue, there are posters who have views that might be considered rightist on any particular issue and there are posters who are clueless and post only to get attention.

I do not think that you have leftist views on any particular issue or have views that might be considered rightist on any particular issue.

Interestingly there is so much talk about article 50...

All talks at the moment heavily hinges on this:

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/27/europe-leaders-crunch-talks-brexit-fallout

[kactus]

I don't really understand the logic behind the move by Cameron to resign after the disappointing result but at the same time announcing that new leader will be elected in September especially when the Tories' MP-group elects the party-leader. Now the country is in a state of limbo for 2-3 months without an effective government.

To make matters more complicated, the leader of the main opposition-party the Labour-party was sacked by his party for failing to promote the remain-campaign enough. The brexit got a lot of support in the traditional heartlands of the Labour-party.

So in less than a week both main parties in the UK have gone into meltdown and the situation is a mess.

Jeremy Corbyn has not yet resigned...

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2016/jun/28/brexit-live-cameron-eu-leaders-brussels-corbyn-confidence

But I agree there is no credible opposition right now...

Edited June 28, 2016 by kactus

[eyeball]

Interesting piece from the Guardian which would have been a solidly pro-Remain paper:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/27/liverpool-london-brexit-leave-eu-referendum

Thatcherism devastated communities throughout industrial England that have never recovered. Their pain explains why people voted to leave in the EU referendum

It doesn't explain their stupidity.

These leavists are cut from the same cloth as the dummies from America's rust belt who keep voting for the sphincters that shipped their livelihoods off to other countries. The only thing they get it is that foreigners are to blame. And lefties too of course.

Edited June 28, 2016 by eyeball

[eyeball]

So the fallout has already happened. Boy that didn't take long. You not even gonna wait and see if it's just a blip in the grand scheme of things.

It is the scheme of things.

[eyeball]

The Rothchilds are worth over 500 trillion eh. They sure are wealthy mothers, thats ten times the entire combined GDP's of the US, EU, China and Japan. Actually the family is estimated to be worth around 400 billion. Not peanuts but it was their wealth an access to it that prevented an EU two hundred years ago ruled by a guy called Napoleon. Taxme needs to apply a little more critical thinking before he repeats this stuff.

We have the youth of Britain blaming the old for rejecting the EU and messing with their future. We have young people on this side of the pond (and on this forum) cheering them for leaving and sticking it to the establishment. This geezer who thinks leaving was a bad idea is just shaking his head. Just a bunch of angry frustrated people flailing around without a clue what they are doing.

That's pretty much how I see it too. The world has become a Tower of Babel where people don't even understand their own ideology or the roots of their angst.

It's like the phrase blow back; the unintended adverse results, in this case, of economic actions and situations with no discernible cause that people can point to.

Edited June 28, 2016 by eyeball

[scribblet]

I don't think it was to do with 'Thatcherism'. Most of the people who voted to Leave simply wanted what the E.U. was supposed to have been originally. A common market for trade while retaining their independence. What they got was a monolithic ‘superstate’ continually interfering with their politics/laws from the size of your vacuum cleaners to electric kettles.

[?Impact]

If Quebec held a referendum and decided to leave Canada, what would you say if the leader of the Bloc Québécois showed up in Parliament the next week? Members of the European Union turned their backs and booed Nigel Farage as he spoke in Brussels today.

[Big Guy]

It works by following the wishes of the majority of voters. David Cameron understands that, despite the cost to him personally. Why is it none of you lefties do?

Why is it that you Lefties just don't understand democracy. A new PM or a new parliament or a new party in power has no obligation to do what a questionnaire (referendum) has indicated. Until a parliament passes a law or motion to begin a negotiation for leaving the EU then the default condition stands.

What is it so hard for you and your Liberal friends to contemplate

[kactus]

And here it is Nigel Farage ...Just the kind of quality or lack of it that there is....

The degree of pomposity of this chap is amusing!

On one hands he wants to negotiate a good deal with EU like a "grown up and sensible attitude' and on the other hand he calls other members of EU not ever holding a proper job in their lives or worked in business or trade. What a farce!

Here's is his speech...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T4ZTuh52wXE

[Icebound]

Hey ppl, we are in for lots more entertainment !!!

Remember Lynton Crosby.... the hero saviour who parachuted in to save Harper's election campaign 2015?

He is joining the Boris Johnson campaign to replace Cameron.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/1357074/boris-johnson-hires-the-tories-election-winning-guru-sir-lynton-crosby-amid-fears-he-will-be-forced-out-of-the-race-to-be-prime-minister/

Let the negativism begin....

...

..

Edited June 28, 2016 by Icebound

[SpankyMcFarland]

I don't think it was to do with 'Thatcherism'. Most of the people who voted to Leave simply wanted what the E.U. was supposed to have been originally. A common market for trade while retaining their independence. What they got was a monolithic superstate continually interfering with their politics/laws from the size of your vacuum cleaners to electric kettles.

Who cares who controls the size of kettles? Somebody will be making such regulations. The control of the 'superstate' has been exaggerated.

http://takimag.com/article/a_vote_to_remain_allan_massie/print#axzz4CvXAjfoD

I think the main point I get from the article is that, like the US, post-industrial Britain has left a lot of people behind.

Edited June 29, 2016 by SpankyMcFarland

[RB]

I noticed the UK folks freaking out about leaving EU, the pounds are down, the stock are down, people resigning, millions of people signing petition. Today the stocks have some momentum but there is silence i.e. no one freaking out the stocks are doing well

[Derek 2.0]

Hey ppl, we are in for lots more entertainment !!!

Remember Lynton Crosby.... the hero saviour who parachuted in to save Harper's election campaign 2015?

He is joining the Boris Johnson campaign to replace Cameron.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/1357074/boris-johnson-hires-the-tories-election-winning-guru-sir-lynton-crosby-amid-fears-he-will-be-forced-out-of-the-race-to-be-prime-minister/

Let the negativism begin....

...

..

That should be no surprise, Crosby made Johnson the Lord Mayor of London....

[Derek 2.0]

I don't really understand the logic behind the move by Cameron to resign after the disappointing result but at the same time announcing that new leader will be elected in September especially when the Tories' MP-group elects the party-leader. Now the country is in a state of limbo for 2-3 months without an effective government.

I would have liked Cameron to stay, but he'd intended this mandate to be his last anyways.....one thing with British politics, unlike Canadian or American, is that they don't tend to stay on after their best before date, likewise have no qualms with resigning when they feel their actions (or inaction) has or will hurt the party, government and country.

Corbyn appears to be the exception to the rule.

Edited June 29, 2016 by Derek 2.0

[kimmy]

Interesting piece from the Guardian which would have been a solidly pro-Remain paper:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/27/liverpool-london-brexit-leave-eu-referendum

In a similar vein, from the same paper:

The Brexit vote was at least partially fuelled by a resentment about elites, particularly the private and London metropolitan school elite who have reaped disproportionately the benefits of globalisation through their entry into key jobs at the higher end of society while their lifestyles have been subsidised by cheap global labour at the other end of the social spectrum.

(...)

Thus the discourse has not been about lifting working-class people into the elites. The language has been about lifting people from other disadvantaged groups – based around ethnicity, gender and sexuality, which are much more comfortable for politicians to talk about as they don’t require the redistribution of wealth, only a change in attitude, which doesn’t require the raising of taxes.

In a large number of white English working-class areas, the chances of joining these elites have crumbled. At the same time, the mantra that is recited in our schools and through society generally is “you can do or be anything you want if you work hard enough”. This is a lie we tell our children, and a huge one.

(...)

This is one of the reasons the working class, in their inchoate rage, decided to leave the European Union. Because whatever the facts of the matter, they felt abandoned.

August always makes the argument that people like these-- the working-class voters left behind by globalization-- should be excited by these developments, because they have been freed from menial labour. Freed to do what, exactly? Look for work? Write one of the tens of millions of Android apps that been purchased 10 times or fewer? Free to ... try to earn money from ad revenue on your YouTube channel? Sell home-made arts and crafts on Etsy? Most likely, these working-class people have been freed from menial labor so that they can try and find some other menial job at even lower pay.

-k