Canada Shunned by Coalition Allies

[Moonlight Graham]

Don't we owe some sort of humanitarian effort to those innocent civilians being slaughtered?

Yes, as much as we do the rest of the world affected by war. Can't do that with fighter jets though.

[WestCoastRunner]

Yes, as much as we do the rest of the world affected by war. Can't do that with fighter jets though.

I'm not sure I'm arguing with you there. However, we don't need to withdraw all support as you have suggested.

[The_Squid]

Why would you deny help to Syrian civilians? You are washing your hands of this entire incident. Is that because it's contained within Syria? So therefore it's not our responsibility. You can see its extending beyond borders.

Dropping a few bombs won't help. Canada can help in other ways.

We didn't drop bombs in many, many other conflicts where people have been killed, or are currently being killed.

Pull out the military.

[-1=e^ipi]

Pull Turkey and Saudi Arabia representatives into a room. Tell the Turks if they continue to support them, they're out of NATO and they can face Russia on their own. Tell the Sauds if they won't help, there won't be one more bullet sold to their regime.

That would be the correct thing to do.

[Moonlight Graham]

I am amazed at the excuses that are being thrown out for why we should excuse ourselves from defending these innocent civilians.

No western country, not one of them, is involved in military action against ISIS because they want to protect innocent civilians. There's wars that have been occurring throughout Africa, some where far far more innocents have died, where the west did virtually nothing.

If we were to intervene in every civil war in the world to stop the violence we would be continually at war in multiple theaters around the world at any given time.

[WestCoastRunner]

Dropping a few bombs won't help. Canada can help in other ways.

We didn't drop bombs in many, many other conflicts where people have been killed, or are currently being killed.

Pull out the military.

I think we are on the same page however if we pull military, what does that leave us with? Warm blankets?

And I don't care about dropping bombs. I only care about the best strategist option for Canada and our resources.

Edited January 20, 2016 by WestCoastRunner

[-1=e^ipi]

So I guess you are saying yes to having Canadian troops on the ground. Do you have a son that could be conscripted if it came to that?

Why just a son? Why not a daughter? It is 2016 after all.

Or are you saying you don't support gender equality when it comes to conscription?

[ReeferMadness]

Our "NATO ally" Turkey just arrested 27 scholars for denouncing the crackdown on the Kurds.

[Moonlight Graham]

I'm not sure I'm arguing with you there. However, we don't need to withdraw all support as you have suggested.

Why do you support risking the lives our troops and spending taxpayer money to fix a problem caused by the United States? They broke it they bought it. Harper somehow got us into the Iraq War when he started bombing ISIS there, and then ISIS in Syria. If unilateralism is what the US wanted that's what they should get. Why bail them out?

[-1=e^ipi]

There is no world war.

Not yet...

But the ideology that leads to ISIS, Al Queda, Boko Haram, Al Shabab and others is spreading.

Fortunately, Turkey and Saudi Arabia are our wonderful allies, who can do no wrong.

[ReeferMadness]

And our other allies the Kurds are engaged in a little ethnic cleansing of their own.

[Moonlight Graham]

If the coalition really wants ISIS gone, there's a simple way to do it. Pull Turkey and Saudi Arabia representatives into a room. Tell the Turks if they continue to support them, they're out of NATO and they can face Russia on their own. Tell the Sauds if they won't help, there won't be one more bullet sold to their regime.

So, I don't give a crap if Canada isn't invited to some meeting. And before the rest of you get your panties bunched up, maybe one of you could figure out what's really going on and come up with a strategy to deal with reality.

I'm trying to figure out why we're fighting ISIS in the first place? It's very clear that if we don't attack them they'll leave us alone. We attacked them first, not the other way around, in both Canada and France. There's a reason why ISIS or their sympathizers have attacked Canada and France and have never attacked Mexico or Japan or China.

[Wilber]

Ya?

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/01/world/middleeast/islamic-state-militants-japanese-hostage.html?_r=0

http://www.cnn.com/2015/11/18/asia/isis-hostages-china-norway/yby

But maybe if we keep real quiet and ignore what they do, they won't bother us.

[SpankyMcFarland]

Great. We can bring the planes home now.

[ReeferMadness]

I'm trying to figure out why we're fighting ISIS in the first place? It's very clear that if we don't attack them they'll leave us alone. We attacked them first, not the other way around, in both Canada and France. There's a reason why ISIS or their sympathizers have attacked Canada and France and have never attacked Mexico or Japan or China.

I'd be happy to support fighting ISIS providing someone could justify it. We should be demanding that the PM explain why bombing will do more good than harm, why it won't have the effect of attracting more recruits, and why there aren't any other viable alternatives. Instead, the default position seems to be that we need to 'do something' and that something must involve killing people. The media and the people (sheeple) are dropping the ball by not questioning the government.

[segnosaur]

I'm trying to figure out why we're fighting ISIS in the first place:

Because regardless of how or why ISIS exists in the first place, they are major league scum bags who engage in wide spread human rights abuses. Some people have the belief that individuals (or countries) that have the resources to protect innocent people should do so.

Put it this way... do you think Canada should have joined in WW2? After all, there was little risk to the Canadian mainland from German or Japanese attack. Granted, Hitler was the aggressor, but it was still a foreign problem.

It's very clear that if we don't attack them they'll leave us alone.

No, its not very clear at all.

Canada is a western-style democracy with constitutionally-guaranteed freedoms and a free market economy. Although reducing things down to "they hate our freedoms" sounds a little simplistic, there is a bit of truth to it. Add a few other things: our close geographic proximity to the US (even if we had no military relations, they are still a major trading partner), our global economic ties, and the fact that we still might be giving humanitarian aid to refugees that ISIS does not like means that Canada would still likely be a target.

Plus, there is also the possibility that, even if we were not engaged militarily, they would attack us as a way to draw us in to the conflict.

There's a reason why ISIS or their sympathizers have attacked Canada and France and have never attacked Mexico or Japan or China.

Actually the more likely reason is that Canada and France have significant muslim populations, some of whom have been radicalized. I believe China, Japan and Mexico are societies which much smaller Muslim communities. Now, that does not mean that all muslims are terrorists. But people fighting for ISIS tend to be muslims... fewer muslims overall means fewer 'radicalized' muslims.

By the way, from what I understand, Tunisia was attacked by ISIS back in the spring of 2015, before it was a member of the coalition. So yes, it is possible to be subject to ISIS attacks even if you're not bombing them.

[Derek 2.0]

How can it be considered a snub? We (Trudeau) committed to withdrawing from combat, we don't belong at the table.

This is what we wanted...what we elected. We can't have it both ways, either we are part of the fight or we aren't.

The Germans, not involved in a combat role, were invited to said meeting by the Americans/French.

[TimG]

There's a reason why ISIS or their sympathizers have attacked Canada and France and have never attacked Mexico or Japan or China.

China is a target for ISIS:

http://time.com/4127764/china-terrorism-chinese-mali-isis/

ISIS has declared war on many countries:

ISIS terrorist leader ‘Caliphate’ officially declares war with Rome, India, China, Palestine (Israel), Somalia, Iran, Pakistan, Egypt, Iraq, Indonesia, Afghanistan, Tunisia, Libya, Algeria and Morocco.

http://www.africametro.com/world-news/terrorist-caliphate-declares-war-with-china-india-rome

Your premise that ISIS is only going after the West because the West interferes is nonsense. ISIS are thugs that want to kill. They create enemies as a recruiting tool and there is nothing the "enemies" can do to prevent it.

Edited January 20, 2016 by TimG

[On Guard for Thee]

Who but Harper got snubbed more often by various leaders including Obama, the UN, Germany? Trudeau was not snubbed according to a statement by the US ambassador to Canada. So I guess it's back to the "nanny scandal" eh?

[Derek 2.0]

Well, it seems Canada isn't interested and the others aren't interested in what Canada thinks.

Exactly, as pointed out by former (Liberal) Foreign Affairs Minister Lloyd Axworthy :

"It's not sure where and what Canada is planning to do," he said. "I know there are discussions reported … in the cabinet retreat. I hope something comes out of it. I hope that by the time Parliament meets next week that there will be a pretty clear set of prescriptions put on the table of what we can do and how we can help."

Axworthy said there are many other options for how Canada could participate in the fight against ISIS, but that for the last three months there's been uncertainty as to how Canada will continue to participate in the coalition.

"It's that lack of direction and certainty that I think is causing other people to wonder," he said. "Australia gets invited with the same number of aircraft that we have still flying, but we don't. The government has to think about that and respond to it."

Axworthy said the government needs to consider what to do next in light of ISIS-inspired attacks in Europe and the death of six Canadians in an attack in Burkina Faso, West Africa. "We can't afford to be on the sidelines," he said.

Axworthy could hardly be confused as a Hawk on Foreign Affairs...........Sunny Sunni Ways!!!!!!

[Smallc]

He still met all our international commitments and sided with our allies.

He met some of them. He didn't meet others. The same will be true of Trudeau.

[Smallc]

So I guess you are saying yes to having Canadian troops on the ground. Do you have a son that could be conscripted if it came to that?

So you want to have the appearance of doing something, but you don't want to do anything, because it's dangerous. Hey, you should be sitting at that table with the US coalition.

[segnosaur]

Dropping a few bombs won't help.

First of all, the world's experience in Kosovo demonstrates that a "war" can be won largely through the use of air power.

Secondly, even if air power won't be enough by itself, it doesn't mean that just using planes won't be of benefit.

Canada can help in other ways.

Yes we can. But that doesn't mean that we shouldn't also contribute to the bombing missions. For all of the claims of Canada having an economic crisis, we are still a relatively wealthy country, and we have a competent and experienced (if a bit underfunded) military. Let Canada do what it can do... including use of air craft in bombing missions, and leave the piddly-little stuff to the countries that have fewer resources.

We didn't drop bombs in many, many other conflicts where people have been killed, or are currently being killed.

Uhhh... so? The fact that we failed to act in one conflict does not automatically justify a lack of action in other conflicts.

[ReeferMadness]

Well I do. If the high rollers are going to exchange secret and privileged information, and seek input from their partners I want my government to be in on it.

And since you appear to have the whole scenario in the ME worked out, why don't you lay out your strategy to bring an end this mess?

Afraid of getting locked out of the clubhouse? Your buddies won't teach you the magic handshake? Maybe there's a less destructive way to stay friends than bombing poor countries.

And if you think that dropping bombs is going to "bring an end to this mess", you clearly haven't been paying attention.

[On Guard for Thee]

Dropping bombs on poor countries is actually what created this mess. Yay Bush, keeping the military industrial complex rockin' and rollin' into the future.