-TSS- Posted November 24, 2015 Report Posted November 24, 2015 The Russian plane was according to some news-reports 17 or 27 seconds in the Turkish air-space. Not long enough for anyone to be able to make a decision to down it before it has exited the air-space. Handy excuse though. It's not going to be nice all of this. The Russians have suffered two major blows in a short time now; first the alleged terrorist attack destroying the Russian passenger-plane in Egypt and now this. Putler is getting very angry. Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted November 24, 2015 Report Posted November 24, 2015 I'm sure the Russians were equally upset about the downing of MH17 last year by pro-Russian insurgents. Loss of their Su-24 strike fighter in a war zone today is an outrage ! Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
TimG Posted November 24, 2015 Report Posted November 24, 2015 I'm sure the Russians were equally upset about the downing of MH17 last year by pro-Russian insurgents.Don't forget KAL007: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Lines_Flight_007 Quote
GostHacked Posted November 24, 2015 Report Posted November 24, 2015 I can't see how NATO can stand up for Turkey in this. If it turns out that the incursion lasted a few seconds, NATO should tell Turkey that they're on their own. They need to make immediate reparations to Russia. NATO has had Turkey's back since the beginning of this fiasco. We can talk about the Free Syrian Army and where they were operating out of (gobble gobble) ...... Turkey is part of NATO and has all the benefits that come with it. Quote
overthere Posted November 24, 2015 Report Posted November 24, 2015 Putin got into this ME buntoss because he wanted to show his rapt domestic audience what a global powerhouse the USSR Russia is again. Now he has had some peasants bring down an airliner with a soda can bomb and some other nonentities shooting down his air force. Vlad will not be happy, and he is just crazy enough to do somehting ....welll... crazy. Quote Science too hard for you? Try religion!
capricorn Posted November 24, 2015 Report Posted November 24, 2015 Putin got into this ME buntoss because he wanted to show his rapt domestic audience what a global powerhouse the USSR Russia is again. Now he has had some peasants bring down an airliner with a soda can bomb and some other nonentities shooting down his air force. Vlad will not be happy, and he is just crazy enough to do somehting ....welll... crazy. You might be interested in the perspective on this event from a supposed expert on Russia. Here's an excerpt. Moscow is not looking for an open-ended, much less an expanded, military effort in Syria. The purpose of the air attacks is, more than anything else, to place Moscow within the decision-making cycle about what happens in Syria. What the Russians are actually looking for is to be some part of a political settlement. Now, a political settlement would actually see Assad go — the Russians are probably the only people who can get Assad out of Damascus peaceably and offer him sanctuary in Russia. It would also include the creation of some kind of political settlement, including the rebels and the Alawite elite. That's the only way you're going to get enough combatants on the ground in Syria to actually take on the Islamic State. Putin is much more concerned with that political dimension than the military one — he wants to be moving on that political dimension as soon as possible. And thanks to the Paris attacks, it looked like the momentum was actually going his way. This shoot-down could stymie efforts at reaching a West-Russia deal, or it could make it more urgent. We really don't know at this stage. http://www.vox.com/2015/11/24/9794816/turkey-russia-plane-galeotti Quote "We always want the best man to win an election. Unfortunately, he never runs." Will Rogers
Big Guy Posted November 25, 2015 Report Posted November 25, 2015 JT was suggesting at a news conference to-day that the Canadian envoy to the UN might try to mediate between Russia and Turkey. Nice idea but not under these conditions. The effects of the Harper policy has changed world perception of where Canada stands. It will take a few more years to get back that trust. The first thing we have to do is get our planes out of there. Quote Note - For those expecting a response from Big Guy: I generally do not read or respond to posts longer then 300 words nor to parsed comments.
socialist Posted November 25, 2015 Report Posted November 25, 2015 JT was suggesting at a news conference to-day that the Canadian envoy to the UN might try to mediate between Russia and Turkey. Nice idea but not under these conditions. The effects of the Harper policy has changed world perception of where Canada stands. It will take a few more years to get back that trust. The first thing we have to do is get our planes out of there. And now we can see who funnels Isis money and strength. There's no military these days that doesn't have a state behind it somewhere. One as big as Isis has to have help and now you can see where the footprints came from. Turkey: NATO, US ally. I bet the United States doesn't want to bring "freedom" there like they won't in Saudi Arabia either. Open your eyes people. We're all being played for fools with all this terrorism mess. It's the under the table hired guns for countries which shoot the guns the US gives to Turkey! You see why US bombing had no effect? Question I wonder is what is the US gaining with all this? Just disruption in the region while scaring the #$%$ out of Americans that terrorists are coming? Quote Thankful to have become a free thinker.
overthere Posted November 25, 2015 Report Posted November 25, 2015 JT was suggesting at a news conference to-day that the Canadian envoy to the UN might try to mediate between Russia and Turkey. Nice idea but not under these conditions. The effects of the Harper policy has changed world perception of where Canada stands. It will take a few more years to get back that trust. The first thing we have to do is get our planes out of there. Utter baloney. Canada is not and never will be an unaligned or neutral nation. Not with any Prime Minister, ever, and not with this one either. And no, you cannot blame it on the Great Satan Harper. Try as you will, his efforts to do at least some of the hard and heavy and bloody work required in places like Afghanistan was noted and appreciated by our allies. This was in sharp and stark contrast to the ill equipped troops Chretien sent to the Balkans, where we were lucky they were not slaughtered. The world sees Canada as a very desirable place to live, a trusted ally, an honest trading partner. solid financial and banking system that was best in the world in the recession. You can peddle the nonsense that Harper changed that, but in fact he was at the cventre of it. Yes, I know that you hate him- but the interntaional perception of Canada is favourable. Start pretending that you're Gandhi, and watch our friends turn their backs on us as they should. Turkey is our ally. Russia is not. Start from there. Quote Science too hard for you? Try religion!
Argus Posted November 25, 2015 Report Posted November 25, 2015 JT was suggesting at a news conference to-day that the Canadian envoy to the UN might try to mediate between Russia and Turkey. Nice idea but not under these conditions. The effects of the Harper policy has changed world perception of where Canada stands. It will take a few more years to get back that trust. Wildly out of touch with reality again, I see. Canada is the "most admired" country with the "best reputation" in the world, according to an annual survey ranking the reputations of developed nations across the globe. The 2015 report from the Reputation Institute ranked Canada as the most reputable country in the world, based on a variety of environmental, political, and economic factors. http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/canada-ranked-as-most-admired-country-in-the-world-report-1.2470040 Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Big Guy Posted November 25, 2015 Report Posted November 25, 2015 Utter baloney. ... Turkey is our ally. Russia is not. Start from there. A few years ago Russia was our friend. I can remember when Canada was respected as a problem solver. You have your vision of Canada and I mine. Harper was not a "Great Satan". He had a vision of what Canada should be, tried to change us and it did not work. And as Prime Minister did not do any "hard and heavy and bloody work required in places like Afghanistan" - he sent our young out to do it. Many came home in body bags. You may feel that is the price worth paying to be "appreciated by our allies". I wonder if the families of the soldiers in those bags feel especially since the Taliban continue to grow and prosper in Afghanistan. A good indicator of what "the world" thinks of Canada is how we have been treated and how we have treated the UN. You read that as "favourable" - I do not. Never hated Harper but understood him. His legacy will be what legislation of his is overturned and how his foreign policy will be changed. That may indicate which one of us in more correct. Always nice to hear from a Big Guy fan. Quote Note - For those expecting a response from Big Guy: I generally do not read or respond to posts longer then 300 words nor to parsed comments.
Army Guy Posted November 25, 2015 Report Posted November 25, 2015 Turkey is walking a thin line here, i'd bet my next pension check that the next Russian bomber will not be without an escort.... I also find it hard to believe that the SU-27 was as deep into turkey as they claim....I mean i'm no expert in aerial tactics, but did turkeys rules of engagement include, that perhaps the pilots did not understand the warnings or was unable to hear the warnings , meaning bad comms....did the turkish pilot fly up to the russian Jet.....letting the russian pilot know he is in deep shit.....i mean every pilot must know when they are being targeted by another aircraft.....that is kind of an international sign when your warning systems are screaming in your ear it is time to bug out over somewhere friendly..... Derek can correct me if i'm wrong.....but unless Turkey was trying to hide something on the ground like some vital target, the whole point of escorting someone outside your air space is getting them to leave ASAP, without engaging .....firing missiles should be a last resort....locking your targeting systems on an aircraft, is like cocking your wpn, everyone knows what is next.... If we followed this doctrine the north would be littered with Russian bears.... Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
ReeferMadness Posted November 25, 2015 Report Posted November 25, 2015 Turkey is walking a thin line here, i'd bet my next pension check that the next Russian bomber will not be without an escort.... I also find it hard to believe that the SU-27 was as deep into turkey as they claim....I mean i'm no expert in aerial tactics, but did turkeys rules of engagement include, that perhaps the pilots did not understand the warnings or was unable to hear the warnings , meaning bad comms....did the turkish pilot fly up to the russian Jet.....letting the russian pilot know he is in deep shit.....i mean every pilot must know when they are being targeted by another aircraft.....that is kind of an international sign when your warning systems are screaming in your ear it is time to bug out over somewhere friendly..... Derek can correct me if i'm wrong.....but unless Turkey was trying to hide something on the ground like some vital target, the whole point of escorting someone outside your air space is getting them to leave ASAP, without engaging .....firing missiles should be a last resort....locking your targeting systems on an aircraft, is like cocking your wpn, everyone knows what is next.... If we followed this doctrine the north would be littered with Russian bears.... The Russians were bombing Turkmen, which are ethnic Turks living in Syria. Turkey was looking for an excuse to take a shot and when the SU-24 overflew a sliver of Turkish airspace, that was enough. Quote Unlimited economic growth has the marvelous quality of stilling discontent while preserving privilege, a fact that has not gone unnoticed among liberal economists. - Noam Chomsky It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it. - Upton Sinclair
eyeball Posted November 25, 2015 Report Posted November 25, 2015 The Russian plane was according to some news-reports 17 or 27 seconds in the Turkish air-space. Not long enough for anyone to be able to make a decision to down it before it has exited the air-space. Handy excuse though. It's not going to be nice all of this. The Russians have suffered two major blows in a short time now; first the alleged terrorist attack destroying the Russian passenger-plane in Egypt and now this. Putler is getting very angry. That's life in the quagmire...welcome back to the club. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
eyeball Posted November 25, 2015 Report Posted November 25, 2015 The world sees Canada as a very desirable place to live, a trusted ally, an honest trading partner. solid financial and banking system that was best in the world in the recession. I have no problem being a shining beacon, I just happen to think we should put it to better use. Like being the spearpoint of an international BDS movement against dictatorships, warlords and their networks of military aid and support - and above all adding dictatorship...placing dictatorship...at the top of the list of crimes against humanity that are punishable in international criminal courts. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
Topaz Posted November 25, 2015 Report Posted November 25, 2015 The following article, says their view is Turkey is setting a trap for the US and NATO to draw them further into the war and I wonder if there is anything to that idea. It's hard to believe any leader any more , who is telling the truth and who is really good of lying to the world. After reading the article, what's your view? http://www.globalresearch.ca/turkey-downs-russian-fighter-to-draw-nato-and-us-deeper-into-syrian-quagmire/5491268 Quote
socialist Posted November 25, 2015 Report Posted November 25, 2015 http://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2015/nov/24/russian-jet-downed-by-turkish-planes-near-syrian-border-live-updates CBC Radio said that this was the first time that an incident like this had happened in "X" years however I can't ever remember a NATO country directly firing and hitting a Russian or Soviet jet. Anyone ? I'm going to make a layman's guess here that this incident won't amount to anything and I hope I'm right. Do you remember that thing called WWI? This is how it started. Though, it was a more complicated web of Bismarkian alliances, it still revolved around alliance chips being called in. And now that some of these countries that we "promised" would never become part of NATO, now are part of NATO, it certainly doesn't take much more than this, combined with a brainwashed Russian public to end in a war. And though Russia may not be what they were during their height as the USSR, nobody wants to get in a conflict with Russia. Historically, they take forever to get rolling, but they do... BAMFs. For goodness sakes, these people were embedded with the mark of centuries of rule by Mongolian fighting culture. The Russians and Turks have been heated rivals since before the days of Peter the Great. This isn't just an issue of trespassing. It's an issue that it was the Ottomans who did it. Quote Thankful to have become a free thinker.
Michael Hardner Posted November 25, 2015 Author Report Posted November 25, 2015 Do you remember that thing called WWI? No, I was just a smidge too young to get called up when WWI was declared. This is how it started. Ok, but what about the implicit claim that there was another incident in mid-recent memory ? Any idea ? Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
socialist Posted November 25, 2015 Report Posted November 25, 2015 No, I was just a smidge too young to get called up when WWI was declared. Ok, but what about the implicit claim that there was another incident in mid-recent memory ? Any idea ? I guess you choose not to understand. I delve much further beyond the CBC drivel, Mike. That;s the reason for the disconnect here. Quote Thankful to have become a free thinker.
Michael Hardner Posted November 25, 2015 Author Report Posted November 25, 2015 I guess you choose not to understand. I delve much further beyond the CBC drivel, Mike. That;s the reason for the disconnect here. No, I appreciate the context you're providing and indeed you know more than me on this topic, clearly. But I'm trying to figure out what they're referring to here. Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
socialist Posted November 25, 2015 Report Posted November 25, 2015 (edited) No, I appreciate the context you're providing and indeed you know more than me on this topic, clearly. But I'm trying to figure out what they're referring to here. Turkey’s attack on the Russian plane targeting the self-proclaimed Islamic State terrorist group has highlighted Ankara’s role in fomenting ISIL. Turkey has allowed itself to become a super-hotbed for ISIS and other jihadists to go back and forth between Syria and Turkey. Good evidence shows that ISIS and other extremists have been supplied with weapons from Libya, another great US success story – and they have been striking inside Syria with those U.S. weapons as demonstrated in the downing of the rescue helicopter. Why would the Turkish government risk such provocation? Would Turkish President Erdogan do this without US permission, without US support…?. Not likely... Even if the Russian jet wandered into Syrian airspace…how is it that the Turkish F-16s scrambled, met their target and took it out in a matter of seconds? How is it that the Russian plane crashed in Syria? NATO General Jens Stoltenberg all of a sudden has toned his rhetoric down. He now realizes things have just gotten incredibly real. Stoltenberg does not want to make this a Russia-NATO conflict, because the implications for a real conflict are now very very REAL! Turkey’s attack on the Russian plane targeting the self-proclaimed Islamic State terrorist group has highlighted Ankara’s role in fomenting ISIL. Turkey has allowed itself to become a super-hotbed for ISIS and other jihadists to go back and forth between Syria and Turkey. Good evidence shows that ISIS and other extremists have been supplied with weapons from Libya, another great US success story – and they have been striking inside Syria with those U.S. weapons as demonstrated in the downing of the rescue helicopter. Why would the Turkish government risk such provocation? Would Turkish President Erdogan do this without US permission, without US support…?. Not likely... Even if the Russian jet wandered into Syrian airspace…how is it that the Turkish F-16s scrambled, met their target and took it out in a matter of seconds? How is it that the Russian plane crashed in Syria? NATO General Jens Stoltenberg all of a sudden has toned his rhetoric down. He now realizes things have just gotten incredibly real. Stoltenberg does not want to make this a Russia-NATO conflict, because the implications for a real conflict are now very very REAL! Edited November 25, 2015 by socialist Quote Thankful to have become a free thinker.
socialist Posted November 25, 2015 Report Posted November 25, 2015 Well if Putin says they weren't in Turkish airspace, it must be true! There was no Turkish air space violation. None. This is pure Western/Turkey propaganda. See RT and Sputniknews. They have the real radar flight data. No one disputes the Turkish plane was in Syrian air space when it shot down the Russian plane. Perhaps Assad should give the Russian's authorization to shot down Turkish plane that enter its air space... What do you think?There was no Turkish air space violation. None. This is pure Western/Turkey propaganda. See RT and Sputniknews. They have the real radar flight data. No one disputes the Turkish plane was in Syrian air space when it shot down the Russian plane. Perhaps Assad should give the Russian's authorization to shot down Turkish plane that enter its air space... What do you think? Quote Thankful to have become a free thinker.
socialist Posted November 25, 2015 Report Posted November 25, 2015 yaaaaaayyy Nice one, Turkey. -k How do you propose Russia work with the US when they are at odds with their objectives? The US is supporting 'rebels' against Assad and Putin supports Assad. I guess you believe that there's some sort of difference between ISIS and the 'friendly rebels' from the US' book of fairy tales? How do you propose Russia work with the US when they are at odds with their objectives? The US is supporting 'rebels' against Assad and Putin supports Assad. I guess you believe that there's some sort of difference between ISIS and the 'friendly rebels' from the US' book of fairy tales? -s Quote Thankful to have become a free thinker.
Topaz Posted November 25, 2015 Report Posted November 25, 2015 The one Russian pilot that survived the crash is saying there was no warning and weren't in Turkey's air space. http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34925229 Quote
capricorn Posted November 25, 2015 Report Posted November 25, 2015 The one Russian pilot that survived the crash is saying there was no warning and weren't in Turkey's air space. http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34925229 This will work well on the domestic front in Russia. Vlad and company need to show their adoring public that Turkey was in the wrong and they wrestled an apology from the offender. With that, it's time to move on. Quote "We always want the best man to win an election. Unfortunately, he never runs." Will Rogers
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