Russian Jet Downed by Turkish Planes

[Derek 2.0]

Canada either needs to leave NATO or kick Turkey out of NATO.

Why? NATO didn't kick out Turkey or Greece over their conflict in Cyprus.

[Derek 2.0]

There will not be a war over this incident - especially nuclear.

Exactly, furthermore, by not reacting, Putin gains political capital with the West and likely concessions on a Assad regime staying in place.

[msj]

Russia is not our enemy. Turkey, Saudi Arabia and the Gulf states are. Most people are just too stupid to realize it.

Russia is up there with Saudi and well above Turkey who is a two bit player here.

My only hope would be for ISIS and Russia to kill each other off much like Iraq and Iran did to each other during their war. But this one is much too asymmetrical for that to happen.

[Topaz]

I doubt ISIS could kill Russia off, since Russia has been bombing the hell out of them and at one time Russia was a friend to the West in WW2.

[msj]

I would hardly call Stalinist Russia a friend.

A necessary ally because Hitler had to be dealt with, yes.

Angela Merkel is no Hitler. ISIS is fascist but they're no Wehrmacht or brown shirts.

But yes, Putin would love to be Stalin. As I already said: Russia is the enemy.

We must never forget this.

One day they may grow into a modern day Germany but it hasn't happened yet.

[honeybee]

Japan don't like call Russia a friend because it dreamed to take back the land from Russia that previously they take from China.

And US support that, because US want to be the dictator ruler of the whole world, but Russia has nuclear weapons.

US world love Japan be the bullet (similar as Turkey) to harass Russia and China.

Most Japanese are the offspring of Chinese who moved to Japan 2000 years ago, but now, their leaders like to get some crumbs by act as a dog for the US.

Edited November 26, 2015 by honeybee

[-TSS-]

Erdogan and Putin are similar kind of criminals both of them. Good to have them on the opposing sides of the conflict if there is any consolation in these events which could escalate into who knows what.

[capricorn]

Interesting take by Michael Petrou of Macleans on PM Trudeau's stand on the downing of the Russian aircraft by Turkey, as declared by Trudeau yesterday in an interview. Trudeau stated he does not want to point fingers at one side or the other. But NATO, of which we are a member, has already taken the position to back Turkey, a member state, over Russia.

http://www.macleans.ca/?dpsfa_article=justin-trudeaus-vacuous-stance-on-syria-2

Essentially, by being a member of NATO, should Canada not be enunciating (and backing) the same position as NATO?

[-1=e^ipi]

Japan don't like call Russia a friend because it dreamed to take back the land from Russia that previously they take from China.

Kuril Islands were never Chinese...

[honeybee]

Kuril Islands were never Chinese...

It belonged to China since Tang Dynasty. The Chinese name of those islands is "a thousand islands" which was found at least 1000 years before Russia and Japan. In Tang Dynasty, those islands was managed by "KuShuo" Island (Now, it named "KuYe" Island (Sakhalin Island), which belong to "HeiShui DuHuFu" Kuril Islands were in the ship route at that time between Sakhalin Island and Kamchatka Peninsula which at 1000 years ago was another country called "LiuGui"

The following is from 2 books 1000 years ago:

《新唐书.东夷传》:　　流鬼国 去京师一万五千里。直黑水靺鞨东北。少海之北。三面阻海。多沮泽。有鱼盐之利。地气早寒。每坚冰之后。以木广六寸。长七尺。施系于其上。以践层冰。逐其奔兽。俗多狗。以其皮毛为裘褐。胜兵万人。南与莫曳靺鞨邻接。未尝通聘中国。 贞观十四年。其王更三译而来朝贡。授骑都尉　　

《资治通鉴》第一百九十五卷:　　太宗文武大圣大广孝皇帝中之上贞观十四年（庚子，西元**零年）　　......　　

辛丑，流鬼国遣使入贡。去京师万五千里，滨于北海，南邻靺鞨，未尝通中国，重三译而来。上以其使者佘志为骑都尉。编辑本段唐代对堪察加的航线　　

唐玄宗开元十三年（西元725年），以安东都护薛泰请在黑水靺鞨内置黑水军，以其最大的部落为黑水府，以其首领为都督并派遣了内地长史（都督的副职）等官员协助当地少数民族首领管辖，开元十四年唐朝在这里设置了黑水都督府。开元十六年赐都督姓李名献诚，对黑水靺鞨地区（今黑龙江中下游流域）实施有效的行政管辖。治所在今俄罗斯哈巴罗夫斯克（伯力）。唐代我国东北少数民族黑水靺鞨开辟了对堪察加的航线即库页岛与堪察加半岛的鄂霍次克海航线。航线起点在莫曳靺鞨（莫曳皆部）所在的库页岛。开始了对流鬼国的交往，其民族就是今天勘察加半岛上的堪察加族 看来择捉岛中国比日俄早发现一千多年　　

《新唐书·靺鞨传》载，黑水（黑龙江）西北有思慕部，往北走10天到郡利部（今黑龙江入海口庙街），再往东北走10天到窟设部（又名窟说部，“窟说”是“库页”的音转），再往东南走10天就到莫曳皆部即莫曳靺鞨了。终点在流鬼国（今堪察加半岛的西南岸）。

《通典》、《新唐书》、《资治通鉴》均有流鬼的记载，以《通典》记载最为详细。其叙述如下：流鬼在北海之北，北至夜叉国，余三面皆抵大海，南去莫设靺鞨船行十五日。无城郭，依海岛散居，掘地深数尺，两边斜竖木，构为屋。人皆皮服，又狗毛杂麻为布而衣之，妇人冬衣豕鹿皮，夏衣鱼皮，制与獠同。多沮泽，有盐鱼之利。地气冱寒，早霜雪，每坚冰之后，以木广六寸，长七尺，施系其上，以践层冰，逐及奔兽。俗多狗。胜兵万余人。无相敬之礼、官僚之法。不识四时节序。有他盗入境，乃相呼召。弓长四尺余，箭与中国同，以骨石为镞。乐有歌舞。死解封树，哭之三年，无余服制。靺鞨有乘海至其国货易，陈国家之盛业，于是其君长孟蚌遣其子可也余志，以唐贞观十四年，三译而来朝贡。初至靺鞨，不解乘马，上即颠坠。其长老人传，言其国北一月行有夜叉人，皆豕牙翘出，啖人。莫有涉其界，未尝通聘。

[TimG]

In Tang Dynasty, those islands was managed by "KuShuo" Island (Now, it named "KuYe" Island (Sakhalin Island), which belong to "HeiShui DuHuFu" Kuril Islands were in the ship route at that time between Sakhalin Island and Kamchatka Peninsula which at 1000 years ago was another country called "LiuGui"

The following is from 2 books 1000 years ago:

Makes no difference. Claims from 1000 years by a country that no longer exists mean nothing. The islands are Russian today and may revert to Japanese if they can find a mutually agreeable deal.

Incidently: http://totallyhistory.com/tang-dynasty-geography/

The Tang Dynasty controlled Korea and Vietnam. Can we then expect China PRC to invade those countries to claim what was "rightfully theirs" based on ancient history? If not why should Korea and Viet Nam be their own countries but these islands which belong to China?

Stuff like this is why ancient history is irrelevant.

Edited November 27, 2015 by TimG

[-1=e^ipi]

It belonged to China since Tang Dynasty. The Chinese name of those islands is "a thousand islands" which was found at least 1000 years before Russia and Japan. In Tang Dynasty, those islands was managed by "KuShuo" Island (Now, it named "KuYe" Island (Sakhalin Island), which belong to "HeiShui DuHuFu" Kuril Islands were in the ship route at that time between Sakhalin Island and Kamchatka Peninsula which at 1000 years ago was another country called "LiuGui"

The following is from 2 books 1000 years ago:

Wow... I've heard all manner of insane territorial claims but this one is by far one of the most ridiculous.

The original inhabitants of the Islands were the Ainu people.

And simply claiming territory 1000s of years ago doesn't make it yours.

[SpankyMcFarland]

Interesting take by Michael Petrou of Macleans on PM Trudeau's stand on the downing of the Russian aircraft by Turkey, as declared by Trudeau yesterday in an interview. Trudeau stated he does not want to point fingers at one side or the other. But NATO, of which we are a member, has already taken the position to back Turkey, a member state, over Russia.

http://www.macleans.ca/?dpsfa_article=justin-trudeaus-vacuous-stance-on-syria-2

Essentially, by being a member of NATO, should Canada not be enunciating (and backing) the same position as NATO?

I think Trudeau got it right. The Turks are dodgy allies, to put it mildly.

[SpankyMcFarland]

Flying over Syria has just gotten a lot more dangerous for everybody. There could be chaos.

[Army Guy]

I think Trudeau got it right. The Turks are dodgy allies, to put it mildly.

Turks have always been dodgy to deal with, just look a the conflict with Greece, over Cyprus.....Turks and greeks both engaged Canadian Airbourne troops during a UN Airbourne operation to separate the two sides......Canadian Airbourne museum has a plaque on the wall of those that lost their lifes during this daring raid....That being said the Canadians dealt out more than they received, and both sides stopped fighting....

[Army Guy]

While NATO is backing Turkey, i wondering if NATO told Turkey to buck the F*** up, and cool their jets.....I would love to hear what was said during that meeting.....

[Peter F]

While NATO is backing Turkey, i wondering if NATO told Turkey to buck the F*** up, and cool their jets.....I would love to hear what was said during that meeting.....

Probably exactly what was said in 2003 when the Turks, at the last minute, refused to allow the US 3rd (or was it the 5th?) corps to invade Iraq from Turkey ... i.e.: Turks don't let anyone dictate to them

[DogOnPorch]

i.e.: Turks don't let anyone dictate to them

Well....not really.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_Liman_von_Sanders

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SMS_Goeben

[Rue]

Russia has been in the last few years engaging in probes of NATO air and sea corridors, parfticularly the Canadian Arctic, Northern Britain, Norway and Estonia, Lithuania, Latvia. Its even sent jets into air and sea space of Finland and Sweden and Denmark (technically Greenland which is Danish) and Iceland.

Russia under Putin has resurrected its cold war sea and air probes.

It has from time to time gone into Greek and Turkish air space with unmanned drones and with piloted craft to probe their response time.

Thiis latest incident is interesting. This was an unaccompanied bomber. If Russia or any country suspects its bombers (SU-25 in this case) are vulnerable they would probably escort them with fightr craft which in this case are the SU 35's.

In this case the SU 25 was unaccomapanied so if it did penetrate Turkish air space it was probably an accident. Russia would have used a drone or SU 35 to probe Turkey response time. With Canada it will use outmoded propeller bombers but that is because it knows Canada won't fire anything. If Russia used an SU35 to probe Canadian air space it would trigger a response from USAF F22 Raptors which no one wants,

So this looks like a bombing run not an intentional probe and Turkey intervening because Russia may not have been attacking ISIL but in fact as I believea poster has already said, Syrian Turkmen as they call them, a faction loyal to Turkey and against Assad.

Turkey reserves the right to consider anything on the Syrian side of its air space attackable within about 50 yards of the border or so.

Something went wrong. Russia had in fact good business ties with Turkey.

Erdogan is a complete and utterly unstable man. This is a man who has flipped and flopped in his support for Syria and Iran as well as Saudi, Arabia Egypt, Jordan UAE and Israe. He has turned on a lot of allies.

He's unpredictable. Putin is in Syria to continue his message he will counter NATO move for move, to protect his naval port in Syria. Putin backs Assa for now. He'll back any puppet leaving his naval port alone in Syria.

Turkey trying to drag NATO into a war against Russia which is what he wants won't happen. Erdogan wants Asad out, Russia does not right now. That is where they clash and Erdogan and Putin have the same belittling bully boy approach to politics which may work on Obama but won't work on Putin.

The coalition between France and Russia with Obama playing me too with them both has all but frozen Erdogan out of the Syrian equation and so he made noise to get attention for being frozen out.

Britain will side with France and therefore Russia not Turkey push come to shove.

As for the hilarious jokers who suggest Trudeau mediate,uh yah send a hairdresser to lecture Putin on his hair. Right. The man has no friggin hair.

Justin Trudeau may be good with perms but bald men are out of his league.

Edited November 27, 2015 by Michael Hardner
spelling

[overthere]

Justin Trudeau may be good with perms but bald men are out of his league.

and that is a keeper.

[SpankyMcFarland]

Petrou has been so pro-Harper, I don't see why the new gov should listen to him at all.

[SpankyMcFarland]

The area that Russia violate is a salient on a salient, a tiny finger of land jutting into Syria. The Turks must have been preparing for this. It's worrying that they weren't able to control their allies on the ground either. One PRESUMES they did want a Russian aviator killed in this fashion.

[Rue]

Spanky the scuttle butt is Russia was attacking Syrian Turkmen in Syria on the ground. The Turkmenare an anti Assad sunni rebel group strongly supported by Turkey. So Erdogan stepped in. Russia is already taking out chunks of ISIL otherwise controlling oil wells in Northern Syria selling discounted oil to Turkey through the black markets. These two ego maniacs were bound to clash.

Also read between the lines. Barely a weel after this incident the EEC is announcing it will pay Turkey billions to keep Syrian refugees in Turkey and will reconsider taking Turkey into the EEC.

Coincidence? Erdogan is rattling the cage to get full advantage. He threatens a side show with Russia which the West needs to go after ISIL and within days he's being paid off.

Bottom line-Europe wants no more refugees from Turkey and Erdogan felt slighted by their alliance with Russia which continues to attack pro Turkish anti Assad rebels on the ground claiming they are ISIL.

Erdogan did what he did for Turkish interests. No one should be surprised. He feels betrayed by the West for their alliance with Putin. He will use the Syrian refugees as his weapon of choice right now to extract advantage

[honeybee]

Wow... I've heard all manner of insane territorial claims but this one is by far one of the most ridiculous.

The original inhabitants of the Islands were the Ainu people.

And simply claiming territory 1000s of years ago doesn't make it yours.

How ridiculous your comments are!

Ainu people are white people, I guess they were flee from Turkey because of Crusades conflict, so that "In 1264, Ainu invaded the land of Nivkh people controlled by the Yuan Dynasty of China, resulting in battles between Ainu and the Chinese." In my previous post, I have quoted Chinese ancient history book, which said that China had set administration department there at least at 725 AD in Tang Dynasty, which is at least 500 years before Ainu people invade that area.

[-1=e^ipi]

Ainu people are white people

No, they are more closely related to Native Americans and Austronesians. They are about 15,000 years removed from Chinese people, and both groups are about 30,000 years removed from Europeans.

I guess they were flee from Turkey because of Crusades conflict, so that "In 1264

No, the Ainu have been in Japan for ~15,000 years.

And while on this topic, the Chinese were not the first people in China. The Austronesians were.