Michael Hardner Posted November 24, 2015 Report Posted November 24, 2015 http://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2015/nov/24/russian-jet-downed-by-turkish-planes-near-syrian-border-live-updates Putins spokesman calls it a very serious eventIt pointed out that the meeting would not fall under the article 4 of the Washington treaty under which Nato member discuss a threat to territorial integrity, political indendence or security. A spokesaman said: The fact that this is not an Article 4 meeting but purely one for information, suggests that Turkey and Nato want to make sure this does not escalate out of control. CBC Radio said that this was the first time that an incident like this had happened in "X" years however I can't ever remember a NATO country directly firing and hitting a Russian or Soviet jet. Anyone ? I'm going to make a layman's guess here that this incident won't amount to anything and I hope I'm right. Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
Boges Posted November 24, 2015 Report Posted November 24, 2015 Franz Ferdinand moment? Russia declares war and Turkey, Turkey invokes article 5, WW3 FTW! Quote
Rue Posted November 24, 2015 Report Posted November 24, 2015 Turkey has fired repeatedly at Russian jets going into Turkish air space. The Turks still support Al Quaeda and Al Nusra in Syria which are enemies of Russia. The Turks also are fighting the Kurds who Justin claims he will be training on the ground with more soldiers. Erdogan of Turkey and Obama of the US are totally against Russian involvement in Syria and France has now formed a coalition with Russia which appears to have full approval of Italy and Britain not coincidentally along with France, the air powers over Libya that Turkey and the US were dead against in favour instead of sending in cells from Al Quaeda to kill Gaddafi before they split to become ISIL. There its easy as pie to follow. Turkey and the US are Muslimbrotherhood supporters who have a direct alliance right now with Al Nusra (Al Quaeda in Syria) and Hamas and the other terrorist Muslim Brotherhood cells in Sudan. This is why they remain silent on Muslim killings in Mali, Nigeria, Somalia, Kenya-those are all Muslim Brotherhood affiliates Obama and Erdogan can't acknowledge particularly when Obama's half brother and other relatives are directly involved. France is fighting these sob's in Mali, Malawi and Syria not to mention Chad, Dahomey, Nigeria. Ivory Coast, Central African Republic. There will be no world war. Nato at this point fully supports Putin over Obama and Erdogan when push comes to shove. That has been made clear. Everyone considers Obama a lame duck and are waiting him out before a US Russian team up levels Syria once ad for all. Until then France and Britain will play proxy for the US in assisting Putin. Obama has crippled his Air Force engaging in limited attacks with maximum p.r. exposure that does not match what they actually do. ISIL, Al Quaeda, Hezbollah Hamas, on and on are going nowhere. Iran has been asked by Putin to understand Assad is expendable in the long run and will have to go and Putin is posing himself as the protector of Iran in the ME. Its China behind the scenes engaged in a war against Sunni Muslims in its country that has the final say these days as to who does what. Eventually ISIL will be attacked to the point where all its leaders who split from Al Quaeda will be killed off allowing it to reunite with Al Quaeda and centralizing as much as possible Sunni extremist terrorists in one movement. The West's use of corrupt monarchs to pay off these Sunni extremists no longer works. Part of this war is the crumbling of Western Arab puppet monarchies leaving a political power vacuum only the Sunni extremists have been able to exploit. There is no moderate class of intelligentsia in the ME right now-the so called buffer class between rich and poor and beyond corruption and military control. As long as that does not exist, there will be no stability in the ME. Quote I come to you to hell.
kimmy Posted November 24, 2015 Report Posted November 24, 2015 yaaaaaayyy Nice one, Turkey. -k Quote (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻ Friendly forum facilitator! ┬──┬◡ﾉ(° -°ﾉ)
Black Dog Posted November 24, 2015 Report Posted November 24, 2015 yaaaaaayyy Nice one, Turkey. -k Well if Putin says they weren't in Turkish airspace, it must be true! Quote "Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition, to wit: There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect." - Francis M. Wilhoit
Boges Posted November 24, 2015 Report Posted November 24, 2015 Well if Putin says they weren't in Turkish airspace, it must be true! Even if it was, for how long? was it being threatening? If it's true that Turkey is Anti-Assad and Russia is Pro-Assad then these two countries have a beef that doesn't involve ISIS, can the rest of NATO be dragged into this beef? Quote
kimmy Posted November 24, 2015 Report Posted November 24, 2015 I'm of the belief that "don't fly in our airspace!" is a less important principle than "don't poke the bear." -k Quote (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻ Friendly forum facilitator! ┬──┬◡ﾉ(° -°ﾉ)
Black Dog Posted November 24, 2015 Report Posted November 24, 2015 I'm of the belief that "don't fly in our airspace!" is a less important principle than "don't poke the bear." -k Looks like the wrong bear got poked, no? Quote "Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition, to wit: There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect." - Francis M. Wilhoit
Boges Posted November 24, 2015 Report Posted November 24, 2015 Looks like the wrong bear got poked, no? The only reason Turkey would have the balls to do this would be because they think/know they have the backing of NATO. Quote
Big Guy Posted November 24, 2015 Report Posted November 24, 2015 Fortunately it was not one of ours. Get our airplanes out of that shooting gallery as soon as possible! Quote Note - For those expecting a response from Big Guy: I generally do not read or respond to posts longer then 300 words nor to parsed comments.
Peter F Posted November 24, 2015 Report Posted November 24, 2015 The only reason Turkey would have the balls to do this would be because they think/know they have the backing of NATO.I don't agree. The Turks have lotsa balls. This wasn't the first Ruski penetrating Turkish airspace, and the Russians didn't take Turkish protests seriously then since they have continued to bomb Turkish proxy's just over turkish borders. So the turks put a missile into one as soon as they had a legitimate chance. Now Putin will listen. Quote A bayonet is a tool with a worker at both ends
Argus Posted November 24, 2015 Report Posted November 24, 2015 The reports say the Russian plane 'briefly' overflew Turkish territory. I think this is more about Turkey's hostility to the Assad regime and its support for the insurgency there than anything else. Russia has been bombing anti-Assad groups along the frontier which are made up of ethnic Turkmen who Turkey supports. Turkey says it opposes ISIS but there's precious little evidence of this. It said it was joining the fight to bomb them but only bombed Kurd groups in Iraq and Syria to restart its internal war with the Kurds so Endrogen's party could win the election. Endrogen and Putin are two of a kind, and Endrogen has taken a lot of lessons from Putin in how to take over a democratic country and make it into an autocratic dictatorship with only a thin veneer of democratic ideals. I think we should cut the Turks loose on this and let them and the Russians do whatever they want to each other. In a perfect world Putin and Endrogen would be given sabers and stuffed into a small room to cut each other to pieces. Unfortunately, the idiot citizenry of their countries gave these two arrogant, venal, bloodless men genuine power. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
ReeferMadness Posted November 24, 2015 Report Posted November 24, 2015 First, the Turks shot down the plane. Then the rebels claim to have shot the pilots while they were still in their parachutes. Then, a Russian helicopter that was sent to look for the pilots was shot down. What a clusterf*ck. Endrogen and Putin are two of a kind, and Endrogen has taken a lot of lessons from Putin in how to take over a democratic country and make it into an autocratic dictatorship with only a thin veneer of democratic ideals. I think we should cut the Turks loose on this and let them and the Russians do whatever they want to each other. In a perfect world Putin and Endrogen would be given sabers and stuffed into a small room to cut each other to pieces. Unfortunately, the idiot citizenry of their countries gave these two arrogant, venal, bloodless men genuine power. Agreed but it will never happen. NATO (ie the Americans and the British) find it too handy to have an ally in the Middle East and Turkey has been the least crazy of the bunch. Until now, anyway. Fighting by proxy - this is how WWIII could start. Quote Unlimited economic growth has the marvelous quality of stilling discontent while preserving privilege, a fact that has not gone unnoticed among liberal economists. - Noam Chomsky It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it. - Upton Sinclair
ReeferMadness Posted November 24, 2015 Report Posted November 24, 2015 NATO has convened an emergency meeting. Putin called Turkey's action a "stab in the back by the terrorists' accomplices". Quote Unlimited economic growth has the marvelous quality of stilling discontent while preserving privilege, a fact that has not gone unnoticed among liberal economists. - Noam Chomsky It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it. - Upton Sinclair
ReeferMadness Posted November 24, 2015 Report Posted November 24, 2015 Video of the plane going down here. Quote Unlimited economic growth has the marvelous quality of stilling discontent while preserving privilege, a fact that has not gone unnoticed among liberal economists. - Noam Chomsky It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it. - Upton Sinclair
The_Squid Posted November 24, 2015 Report Posted November 24, 2015 Russian entry into Turkish airspace lasted 'seconds' - U.S. official The United States believes Russia's incursion into Turkish airspace on Tuesday likely lasted only a matter of seconds before Turkey shot down a Russian warplane, a U.S. official said, saying the assessment was based on preliminary indications.[/size] http://in.reuters.com/article/2015/11/24/mideast-crisis-syria-turkey-seconds-idINKBN0TD24P20151124 I can't see how NATO can stand up for Turkey in this. If it turns out that the incursion lasted a few seconds, NATO should tell Turkey that they're on their own. They need to make immediate reparations to Russia. Quote Science flies you to the moon, Religion flies you into buildings.
ReeferMadness Posted November 24, 2015 Report Posted November 24, 2015 Russians were bombing Turkmen (Turkish descendants that live in Syria) so no doubt, Turkey was looking for an opportunity to hit back. It seems that the Russian plane crossed over a Turkish isthmus and was back in Syrian airspace by time it was hit. Quote Unlimited economic growth has the marvelous quality of stilling discontent while preserving privilege, a fact that has not gone unnoticed among liberal economists. - Noam Chomsky It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it. - Upton Sinclair
Guest Posted November 24, 2015 Report Posted November 24, 2015 I can't see how NATO can stand up for Turkey in this. If it turns out that the incursion lasted a few seconds, NATO should tell Turkey that they're on their own. They need to make immediate reparations to Russia. Turkey are claiming they warned the Russian plane ten times. Quote
Derek 2.0 Posted November 24, 2015 Report Posted November 24, 2015 First, the Turks shot down the plane. Then the rebels claim to have shot the pilots while they were still in their parachutes. Then, a Russian helicopter that was sent to look for the pilots was shot down. What a clusterf*ck. Right, and it sounds as if several of the SAR helicopter crew members were killed also. Fighting by proxy - this is how WWIII could start. Sure, but compared against countless incidents during the Cold War, in my opinion, there is no reason to run to the fallout shelters yet..........but I imagine the cost of oil and gas in Turkey, which depends on Russian energy imports, will soar. Quote
Guest Posted November 24, 2015 Report Posted November 24, 2015 Right, and it sounds as if several of the SAR helicopter crew members were killed also. The BBC just said, that the Russians just said that all the helicopter crew made it safely back to their base. Quote
Derek 2.0 Posted November 24, 2015 Report Posted November 24, 2015 The BBC just said, that the Russians just said that all the helicopter crew made it safely back to their base. From Russian media.......this report says one Russian Marine was killed. Quote
Guest Posted November 24, 2015 Report Posted November 24, 2015 From Russian media.......this report says one Russian Marine was killed. Yeah, the BBC are reporting that now, As we reported earlier, Russian military officials have also said that Syrian rebels fired on a Russian search and rescue helicopter, forcing it to land and killing one crew member. but they also just reported on TV that both fighter pilots are alive. A few seconds ago. Quote
Derek 2.0 Posted November 24, 2015 Report Posted November 24, 2015 but they also just reported on TV that both fighter pilots are alive. A few seconds ago. Odd that, since the Russian Government has confirmed they know one Marine and one of the Su-24's pilots was killed. Quote
Charles Anthony Posted November 24, 2015 Report Posted November 24, 2015 Folks, A bunch of posts were taken down because they were nothing but thread drift. Quote We do not have time for a meeting of the flat earth society. << Où sont mes amis ? Ils sont ici, ils sont ici... >>
The_Squid Posted November 24, 2015 Report Posted November 24, 2015 Folks,A bunch of posts were taken down because they were nothing but thread drift. How ISIL came about isn't important to the topic of the war against ISIL? Now that's a bit of micromanagement.... Hopefully you can put the same energy into recognizing trolling posts.... Quote Science flies you to the moon, Religion flies you into buildings.
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