Islamophobia in Canada

[Hal 9000]

Then why aren't these "millions" of people killing? Why is it that so many Muslims live peacefully with unbelievers and apostates?

So, you clearly cannot answer my question. Maybe you should not post things that you haven't thought through.

[WestCanMan]

Then why aren't these "millions" of people killing? Why is it that so many Muslims live peacefully with unbelievers and apostates?

True moderates need to evolve past the point of giving their "eternal souls" to a book that demands [death to all infidels] the killing of billions of people. I refuse to accept them as peaceful, loving neighbours regardless of how nice you claim they are.

I'm happy with them over there and us over here, but I don't have to trust them. Thousands of years of actual human history go against that.

[eyeball]

Not my interpretation.

Clearly, you don't know how abrogation is used, and why it's important when it comes to the Qu'ran.

Did you look up the word abrogation before you tried swallowing your foot? Because it's important where it comes to the way the vast majority of muslims interpret the Koran.

Naskh (tafsir) (Arabic for abrogation), a genre of Islamic exegesis dealing with conflicting material in Islamic law

Wiki

[DogOnPorch]

Did you look up the word abrogation before you tried swallowing your foot? Because it's important where it comes to the way the vast majority of muslims interpret the Koran.

From your link:

Abrogating Verse: Q.9:5 (āyat al-sayf, the "sword verse"), the verse which has been claimed by some Muslim scholars to abrogate the largest number of the early verses of the Quran while others concluded that it does not abrogate any verse.

9:5 And when the sacred months have passed, then kill the Al-Mushrikun wherever you find them and capture them and besiege them and sit in wait for them at every place of ambush. But if they should repent, establish prayer, and give zakah, let them [go] on their way. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.

[DogOnPorch]

Or they're living their lives, just like you or I.

Oskar Schindler was a good man.

[drummindiver]

Then why aren't these "millions" of people killing? Why is it that so many Muslims live peacefully with unbelievers and apostates?

Why are so many killing?

Are they doing it because they hear voices or because the Qu'ran is telling them to?

[jbg]

Never let facts get in the way of good old bigotry. They fall on deaf ears anyway.

Being inclusive does not mean being blindfolded to the facts.

[drummindiver]

Did you look up the word abrogation before you tried swallowing your foot? Because it's important where it comes to the way the vast majority of muslims interpret the Koran.

Dude, you just proved my point for me. Do you even understand what you posted? Did you read it?

This spells it out for you.

"Chapter 9 of the Qur'an, in English called "Ultimatum," is the most important concerning the issues of abrogation and jihad against unbelievers. It is the only chapter that does not begin "in the name of God, most benevolent, ever-merciful."] Commentators agree that Muhammad received this revelation in 631, the year before his death, when he had returned to Mecca and was at his strongest. Muhammad bin Ismail al-Bukhari, compiler of one of the most authoritative collections of the hadith, said that "Ultimatum" was the last chapter revealed to Muhammad although others suggest it might have been penultimate. Regardless, coming at or near the very end of Muhammad's life, "Ultimatum" trumps earlier revelations.

Because this chapter contains violent passages, it abrogates previous peaceful content. Muhsin Khan, the translator of Sahih al-Bukhari, says God revealed "Ultimatum" in order to discard restraint and to command Muslims to fight against all the pagans as well as against the People of the Book if they do not embrace Islam or until they pay religious taxes. So, at first aggressive fighting was forbidden; it later became permissible (2:190) and subsequently obligatory (9:5). This "verse of the sword" abrogated, canceled, and replaced 124 verses that called for tolerance, compassion, and peace.]"

"Everything in the Qur'an about forgiveness and peace is abrogated by verse 9:5, which orders Muslims to fight the unbelievers and to establish God's kingdom on earth".

How's your foot tasting?

Edited December 6, 2015 by drummindiver

[Argus]

The nice stuff is the abrogation. The ugly stuff, like your interpretation of things, is the aberration.

You can bandy words around all you want. Actions speak louder than words, and the actions of world Muslims make it quite clear what they think of unbelievers.

[Argus]

Then why aren't these "millions" of people killing? Why is it that so many Muslims live peacefully with unbelievers and apostates?

I'm not aware of any country where Muslims live peacefully with unbelievers unless the percentage of Muslims is very low. Once a certain threshold in numbers is reached, percentagewise, it seems to bring with it a chafing at the lack of Islam in daily life, and a demand that changes be made in media, in culture, in government and laws, to respond to the religious sensibilities of Muslims. Then violence ensues.

Of course, it's only a small percentage of the community which ever actively involves itself in the violence, but then, that's always been the case in any community with regard to those who take action on almost any subject.

Edited December 6, 2015 by Argus

[marcus]

Then why aren't these "millions" of people killing? Why is it that so many Muslims live peacefully with unbelievers and apostates?

3 million Muslims in U.S. and 1 million in Canada. When do you suppose these dangerous people will finally murder us all?

[DogOnPorch]

3 million Muslims in U.S. and 1 million in Canada. When do you suppose these dangerous people will finally murder us all?

So Islam simply isn't a problem and any concerns are unfounded?

[eyeball]

From your link:

Abrogating Verse: Q.9:5 (āyat al-sayf, the "sword verse"), the verse which has been claimed by some Muslim scholars to abrogate the largest number of the early verses of the Quran while others concluded that it does not abrogate any verse.

I'm sure there were lots and lots of old cranky Christians who resisted evolution and and change too but it's still just as inevitable in Islam. The best thing to do is leave it alone so it can unfold normally.

[eyeball]

Dude, you just proved my point for me. Do you even understand what you posted? Did you read it?

You get the same reply I gave to DOP. If all you want to pay attention to is the ugly stuff then that is probably what's going to grab your attention the hardest.

Have you got the belief or does the belief have you is something you might want to take pause to consider.

[eyeball]

So Islam simply isn't a problem and any concerns are unfounded?

No, they're just vastly overblown.

[dialamah]

Abrogation is a disputed concept, is used by extremists to justify violent extremism, and is not universally accepted by all Muslims. Thus, those who are not fighting aren't 'waiting to be called'; in fact, they don't believe there's any reason to fight and that the Quran really teaches peaceful co-existence.

Some think that the first verse of Surah at-Tawba - which issues the complete command of jihad and immunity to the polytheists, fixing a period for them to stay in Mecca after which they had to leave and the Muslims were to besiege them in their fortifications and hiding places and kill them, and which, furthermore, was revealed in the ninth year of the Hejira - has in one blow abrogated all the instructions about jihad that were previously revealed. Is this the correct view?

No, this view is incorrect. Why? For two reasons. One is that we can only consider a verse to have abrogated another when it is incompatible with it. Imagine a verse being revealed commanding not to fight the polytheists at all followed by another allowing for fight. Good. This would mean that God has canceled the previous instruction.

This is the meaning of abrogation, that the first instruction is annulled and replaced by another. So the second instruction must be such that it is fully incompatible with the first. However, if collectively, the contents of the first verse and the second one are compatible, so that one clarifies the other, then there is no further question of one being an abrogator and the other being abrogated.

The verses of Surah at-Tawba are not such that they can be said to have been revealed so as to nullify the previously revealed ones, which attached conditions to jihad.

There are a number of fundamental problems with this abrogation claim, which I will summarize here. For those who are interested in a more detailed analysis of this issue with references to primary sources and other works, there is a dedicated chapter in my bookAbrogation in the Qur’an and Islamic Law.

First, only by taking 9.5 completely out of context it maybe be claimed that it has abrogated verses that command the Muslims to show tolerance to non-Muslims. To see how blatant that distortion is, I have quoted 9.5 with the verses that surround it:

[ ]

Yet even when considering all the verses that are claimed to have been abrogated by 9.5, there are still many other verses that command the Muslims to live peacefully with the disbelievers left uncovered by abrogation claims.

It should now be clear that the claim that verse 9.5 has abrogated other verses, let alone such a large number of them, is absurd. Even the title “the verse of the sword” is a late invention. While “the verse of alms” has been given this name by scholars because it talks about almsgiving and other verses have been given names after words that occur in them, the expression “the verse of the sword” is very much a misnomer because the term “sword” is not found in the verse. Even more telling is the fact that this word does not exist anywhere in the Qur’an!

The abrogation of Quranic verses, arguably the greatest lie against the Quran, was originally invented during the fourth century A.H. (late 10th century A.D.) by some Muslim scholars notably Ahmed Bin Ishaq Al-Dinary (died 318 A.H.), Mohamad Bin Bahr Al-Asbahany (died 322 A.H.), Hebat Allah Bin Salamah (died 410 A.H.) and Mohamad Bin Mousa Al-Hazmy (died 548 A.H.), whose book about Al-Nasekh and Al-Mansoukh is regarded as one of the leading references in the subject.

This concept invented originally by these scholars, claims that there are some verses in the Quran that have been abrogated and invalidated by other verses!

The verse that is the abrogator they call (Al-Nasekh) while the abrogated verse they call (Al-Mansoukh).

These scholars have come up with hundreds of cases of abrogated verses to the extent that they have formulated a whole science of the subject filling lengthy books and references.

Although the concept was originally invented by Muslim scholars as a result of their poor understanding of the Quran, yet it has been widely exploited by non-Muslim writers to tarnish the perfection and divinity of the book.

[Hal 9000]

3 million Muslims in U.S. and 1 million in Canada. When do you suppose these dangerous people will finally murder us all?

We don't actually know when they'll "murder us all", but history does show a pattern of what they'll do and when. I posted the percentage numbers and what Muslims do when those numbers reach certain plateaus . I don't recall all the numbers off hand, but protests for Sharia usually begin at about 3.5-4% of the population. One would only have to study the events in Europe to accurately predict what will inevitably happen here.

We're about 3% now, USA is at about 1% - US will take more terrorist attacks because they're the bigger target and the actual Muslim numbers are higher, but Muslims in Canada with the higher percentage of population will start to protest and revolt sooner (Unless we simply just give them what they want).

If one looks at immigration and especially birth rates, France, Belgium, Austria, Sweden and Germany have about 20-25 years (1 generation) until they are formally Muslim countries - UK and the rest of western Europe will have about 30-35 years.

Now, you might say "Hal, using your numbers, the Muslim populations of those countries at the very worst will be 20 -25% - hardley a majority". Yes, that's right, but how many Nazi's were there? How many Romans controlled the world? Certainly less than 25%. Look at what Isreal deals with day after day with less than 20% Muslims - and they know whats going on - while we stay in our "happy place".

Edited December 6, 2015 by Hal 9000

[Hal 9000]

Abrogation is a disputed concept, is used by extremists to justify violent extremism, and is not universally accepted by all Muslims. Thus, those who are not fighting aren't 'waiting to be called'; in fact, they don't believe there's any reason to fight and that the Quran really teaches peaceful co-existence.

So, how many Muslims do accept the concept of abrogation? Just spitball a number that we can work with.

[WestCoastRunner]

Joe Schlesiner's new column: History suggests refugees can only make Canada a better place.

Some excerpts:

"But we do. We do because of the population tsunami that is about to hit us. Close to a third of Canadians are baby boomers. By the time the last of them reaches 65 in 15 years the proportion of seniors is expected to account for nearly a quarter of Canada's population.

Sure, many Canadian seniors are still working. The 60s, we are told, are the new 40s and all that. But that's far outweighed by another factor — the problems of our growing life expectancy. As the aging of Canadians grows through the 80s and beyond, it brings with it ever-growing debilities, diseases that will put an intolerable drain on our health-care budgets.

Only a younger, highly creative society can cope with this burden. And we've been lucky in having a whole run of them."

But the Syrians, we are told, are different. There may be terrorists among them. Well, that's a scary oldie too. When the Hungarians came there was no talk of terrorists. What made folks suspicious and worried the authorities then was the possibility of communist agents and spies. And that faded quickly.

Refugees have contributed greatly to our country, even those with little education. They have started businesses, and have significantly changed industries.

[dialamah]

We don't actually know when they'll "murder us all", but history does show a pattern of what they'll do and when.

So based on history, we should also expect Christian Holy Wars at some point. Good to know.

So, how many Muslims do accept the concept of abrogation? Just spitball a number that we can work with.

You'll have to clarify the question, because some do not accept any abrogation as being valid, some accept some very limited abrogations and some think that anything written later in the book abrogates anything written earlier.

What I'm guessing you want to know is - how many accept abrogation as a justification for engaging in extremism and terrorism. According to this CNN article, between 85,000 and 106,000 worldwide. or .00006625% of the 1.6 billion Muslims worldwide.

The CNN article points out that the "Islamic threat" is barely a bliip in the world's recent history of violence:

By historical standards this is hardly a major threat. At the end of the Cold War, Soviet and other Warsaw Pact countries could muster around 6 million men to fight in a war against the West, a number that is some 60 times greater than the total number of militants estimated to be fighting for jihadist organizations today.

And, of course, the Soviets had a vast supply of nuclear-armed, land-based missiles, nuclear-armed submarines and nuclear-armed bombers and many other highly sophisticated weapons systems that jihadist organizations have never acquired and are quite unlikely to.

The only reasonable conclusion to draw is that the threat posed by jihadist organizations around the globe is quite inconsequential when compared with what the West faced in the past century.

[WestCoastRunner]

True moderates need to evolve past the point of giving their "eternal souls" to a book that demands [death to all infidels] the killing of billions of people. I refuse to accept them as peaceful, loving neighbours regardless of how nice you claim they are.

I'm happy with them over there and us over here, but I don't have to trust them. Thousands of years of actual human history go against that.

It's a good thing that your refusal has no bearing on 35,000 Syrian refugees being admitted by the end of 2016.

BTW, if a Syrian refugee is employed where you work, or move in next door, or the children form friendships with your children, how will you treat them? Will you ignore them, spit in their face, call them names to their face? Just curious as to your reaction when you are actually engaging with them.

[dialamah]

The real threat, IMO:

I am not terrified of the terrorists; i.e., I am not, myself, terrorized. Rather, I am terrified of the terrorized; terrified of the bovine masses who are so easily manipulated by terrorists, governments, and the terror-amplifying media into allowing our country to slip toward totalitarianism and total war.

Now the result of that could be a statistically significant threat to myself and my family. Under an omnipotent government with permanent emergency powers, there would be a significant likelihood of my nephew being drafted to help occupy a foreign country; my daughter going hungry thanks to wartime economic planning; or myself being imprisoned or shot as a dissident.

[Argus]

I'm sure there were lots and lots of old cranky Christians who resisted evolution and and change too but it's still just as inevitable in Islam. The best thing to do is leave it alone so it can unfold normally.

Those cranky Christians weren't blowing up buildings. And Islam is changing all right, for the worse, thanks to tens of billions of Saudi petrodollars funding schools, mosques and community centers around the world, and even supplying them with Saudi paid imams.

[Argus]

It's a good thing that your refusal has no bearing on 35,000 Syrian refugees being admitted by the end of 2016.

BTW, if a Syrian refugee is employed where you work, or move in next door, or the children form friendships with your children, how will you treat them? Will you ignore them, spit in their face, call them names to their face? Just curious as to your reaction when you are actually engaging with them.

Personally, I doubt I will meet most as I don't go into government subsidized housing projects and that is probably where most of them will spend their lives.

I might encounter one driving a cab a few years from now, after they learn how to drive, or cleaning the floors in a building I enter. But given the nature of their education and backgrounds, I doubt I'll see them elsewhere.

[Hal 9000]

So based on history, we should also expect Christian Holy Wars at some point. Good to know.

You'll have to clarify the question, because some do not accept any abrogation as being valid, some accept some very limited abrogations and some think that anything written later in the book abrogates anything written earlier.

What I'm guessing you want to know is - how many accept abrogation as a justification for engaging in extremism and terrorism. According to this CNN article, between 85,000 and 106,000 worldwide. or .00006625% of the 1.6 billion Muslims worldwide.

The CNN article points out that the "Islamic threat" is barely a bliip in the world's recent history of violence:

So, "abrogation" to you is simply the number of legitimate jihadists in formed armies? Wow!

Would you agree that with such low numbers, they should easily be dealt with?