eyeball Posted November 26, 2015 Report Share Posted November 26, 2015 Logical failure, as many other "molested" societies around the world have developed just fine. Many molested individuals do fine too but we don't use that as an excuse to write off individuals that don't. Your use of logic is fallacious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted November 26, 2015 Report Share Posted November 26, 2015 Many molested individuals do fine too but we don't use that as an excuse to write off individuals that don't. Your use of logic is fallacious. Yes we do...and that is where the very weak analogy fails even further. Does Canadian "Islamophobia" include lucrative oil services and mining contracts ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted November 26, 2015 Report Share Posted November 26, 2015 I've also worked with some Muslims who were misogynistic, sexist and racist, just like some some whites I've met. Nobody here is saying that the habitual breakdown in social conditioning which humans are prone to does not happen in every race, every ethnic, national and cultural group. The issue as I see it is that the social conditioning and the religion which underlies it among Muslims, particularly from the middle east and Pakistan, is dramatically more backward in terms of social views than ours. My Muslim friends and acquaintance, on the other hand, don't give a shit about that. Then your Muslim friends are ignoring the requirements as laid out in the Koran. That's fine by me. And if we had some means of examining the social/religious views of prospective immigrants to focus on those, like your friends, who don't take such things seriously, and weeding out others who do, I'd be considerably happier. Why do you think that this Pakistani rape gang is not different than the 200,000+ Pakistanis in England? Again, no one is saying all Pakistanis are like this. However, it does seem to be emerging as a less than exceptional thing, with similar allegations against Muslims (notably Pakistanis) all across the UK, and similar allegations and reports of 'rape gangs' from across Europe. Why do you think that this white rape gang (see below) is not different than the other white people in England? Because such things seem to be quite exceptional in the West among non-ethnic people. #1 - Majority of your statistics, that you're so fond of throwing around, are incomplete and do not reflect a whole culture or religion. Like the one you tried to make not long ago were generalized questions were asked in some Muslim countries. Within those statistics, it was evident that each country had different views, but you tried to take the average and then apply it to EVERY Muslim. Including Muslims from countries that were not in the poll, like Syrians, Iranians, Canadian Muslims, American Muslims, etc. etc. I can only go by the information which is at hand. I never suggested every single Muslim subscribes to these social views. However, they seem to be quite widespread throughout the Muslim world, including in countries not reflected in the polls. Iran is a country, after all, which hangs teenage girls for being raped and has religious police who patrol the streets with sticks and whips to use on women they find improperly clad. As to the US and Canada, I will admit that we seem to have done a much better job at integrating Muslims than most European countries. Then again, Muslims in Canada and the US are a much lower percentage of the population. And also then again we, unlike the Europeans do not keep statistics based on religion. Anecdotal, yes, but I see a good deal of crime involving Muslim sounding people, and hear of more from acquaintances. Every time I see a low income housing project on TV it seems to be filled with women in hajibs and robes, and the government statistics on the economic success of immigrants does not speak well of the performance of immigrants from that region. #2 - You find a really really bad incident that was committed by Muslim(s) and then try to say that this is what Muslims are all about. Twenty five thousand Muslim terrorists incidents in the last fifteen years is a convincing argument with regard to the fanaticism which accompanies Islam. Not all Muslims are fanatics, but when you get a large group of Muslims you get violent fanatics among them. This has happened in every Muslim population on Earth. I'm unaware of a single Muslim nation or a single nation with a sizable percentage of Muslims who get along with others. Likewise when you absorb hundreds of thousands of people with a cultural/religious outlook which treats women as sluts and inferiors, and Jews and Gays as unclean that general outlook is going to survive among many of them. The more of them you get, the stronger that viewpoint will be as it is continually reinforced by peers and newcomers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted November 26, 2015 Report Share Posted November 26, 2015 From the information I remember looking at, the highest percentage of ethnicity per capita in Canadian prisons are aboriginals. It's not Muslims. In the U.S., it's blacks. Not Muslims. Aboriginals are the only ethnic group we keep statistics on. We keep none on religion, nor does the US, so we simply do not know. If indeed 70% of the prison population in France is Muslim that is not a flattering statistic. So what does this say? Is it the religion? Is it ethnicity? No. There is a direct correlation between the prison population and the level of poverty. There is no question about that. The problem with your argument is that the level of poverty among aboriginals and among blacks is in partly based on cultural issues within those communities. No one who has been on reserves or worked with aboriginals can miss how the cultural background of the reserves causes crime and addiction and helps perpetuate poverty. When you grow up in a black ghetto or on a reserve, or in a Muslim ghetto, you grow up in a culture which does not place the same priorities on things like education and respect for others and their property, or for hard work, as the surrounding community. Importing more people with cultural issues, who in this case are also going to have literacy issues and skills and education issues, is only going to lead to more poverty, and thus more crime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted November 26, 2015 Report Share Posted November 26, 2015 This stupid comparison is like just about every other stupid conservative argument that is used to denigrate Muslims - they always leap-frog over any period(s) of history or social development that might highlight or underscore our own society's more savage aspects and especially as these relate to our culpability in prolonging and retarding a natural development among some Muslim societies that most every un-molested society has been able to undergo when left to their own devices. I'm not interested in your complaints about the past. This is not the past. This is the present. My issue with regard to bringing people into this great country in huge numbers is simply efficiency and effectiveness. I want to bring over only the best, and that means those who have the highest degree of employability and the lowest likelihood of anti-social cultural and religious views. From what I have gleaned from a variety of sources Muslims, particularly from the middle east, have poor employability and a higher degree of anti-social cultural and religious views. And no, I don't care if some among them are just fine. As a group, they make for less successful immigrants as compared to immigrants from other geographical areas of the planet. We don't make policy based on individuals but based on collectives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted November 26, 2015 Report Share Posted November 26, 2015 (edited) Yes we do... Where? and that is where the very weak analogy fails even further. The analogy between the individual and their society is as old as Plato. It stands to reason a bunch of really screwed over individuals will result in a screwed up society and vice versa. Edited November 26, 2015 by eyeball Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted November 26, 2015 Report Share Posted November 26, 2015 Where? The analogy between the individual and their society is as old as Plato. It stands to reason a bunch of really screwed over individuals will result in a screwed over society and vice versa. But you're still ignoring the fact that much of the world was once made up of colonies, and that only the Muslim ones engage in this brutal terrorism. I think the West really screwed over Africa, for example, especially in how quickly it was abandoned, and in the ridiculous borders which were drawn and which incorporate different racial groups which hate each other, but we see a distinct difference in the levels and kinds of violence as we move north into Muslim areas. The same can be said of Asia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestCanMan Posted November 26, 2015 Report Share Posted November 26, 2015 (edited) I've worked with whites who didn't like Muslims or other ethnic groups.... Marcus you can't compare western views on paedophilia with those of some of the arabic nations. It's a crime to have sex with young boys here and a long-established practice over there (I'm not saying in every single arabic nation mind you). http://www.cnn.com/2015/09/22/asia/afghanistan-boy-abuse-us-military/ I'm not just taking CNN's account of it, and I'm sure you can dig up plenty more examples on the internet if you have the stomach to look for it. I know people who came from several different parts of the middle east and life over there is nothing like here. I know a Iraqi and a Lebanese/Jordanian couple who all called it a "vacation" when they fled their homes with nothing more than whatever cash they had in their wallet plus whatever gas they had in their car, never to return. The couple I'm speaking of did it twice. I've heard several people talk about how houses with women in them neededtheir windows blacked out, and women don't dare walk outside without a Hijab, Niqab, etc. Sharia law is brutal and shamelessly discriminatory, and you can see all over the world where Islamic populations start demanding Sharia law even where they don't have the majority. Here in Canada Muslims have already tried to establish sharia law for family matters. Do you think we would be just fine with a population of 1,000,000 muslims here? What if they were 25% of the population? 50%? Life gets worse and worse for non-muslims as their population base grows. I'm an atheist, and I'm aware of how dangerous it is for me to say that I don't have an imaginary friend in most arabic nations. Edited November 26, 2015 by WestCanMan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted November 26, 2015 Report Share Posted November 26, 2015 But you're still ignoring the fact that much of the world was once made up of colonies, and that only the Muslim ones engage in this brutal terrorism. What I'm ignoring is your suggestion that only Muslims are brutal or engage in terrorism. I think the West really screwed over Africa, for example, especially in how quickly it was abandoned, and in the ridiculous borders which were drawn and which incorporate different racial groups which hate each other, but we see a distinct difference in the levels and kinds of violence as we move north into Muslim areas. The same can be said of Asia. The borders in the ME region are just as ridiculous for the same reason and we also see a distinct difference in the amount of attention the West has maintained the ME region...along with some of the worst dictators on the planet. I think the level of moral dissonance and outrage is definitely higher and I think that stands to reason given how noble, righteous and civilized the West likes to think it's actions are in the region. Speaking of brutality and terrorism, I think that includes arbitrarily drawing people's borders for them and then putting dictators in charge of them. I think it's worse actually, to the point that it should be deemed the highest crime against humanity that can be committed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted November 26, 2015 Report Share Posted November 26, 2015 ...Speaking of brutality and terrorism, I think that includes arbitrarily drawing people's borders for them and then putting dictators in charge of them. I think it's worse actually, to the point that it should be deemed the highest crime against humanity that can be committed. If that were the case, Canadians would have "aboriginal" phobias as well because of arbitrary borders. Do they ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Army Guy Posted November 26, 2015 Report Share Posted November 26, 2015 Majority of these immigrants that you saw in your stats and who have come to Canada, have come through the skilled worker category. Meaning that they have to have post secondary education, high English skills and enough settlement funds to come and live in Canada. Can you please provide a source for this new info.....I've tried to find it on line and can not even come close to what you've claimed..... Here is what i have found..... He said he is sympathetic to the argument that family reunification is likely burdensome on the tax purse, but said it’s just a “drop in the bucket” given that those visas account for only 11,000 of the 250,000 or so newcomers expected this year. “The trickier issue is that of the quarter of a million, only about 60,000 are skilled or professional workers,” he said. “Everyone else is dependents.” said Rudyard Griffiths, co-founder of the Dominion Institute and author of Who We Are: A Citizen’s Manifesto. http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada/immigrants-cost-23b-a-year-fraser-institute-report Muslims have the second highest unemployment rates in Canada with 14.4% of the population being unemployed, as compared to 7.4% national unemployment rate The largest profession found in the Canadian Muslim population is sales and services at 27%; the second largest occupational field comprised of Muslims in Canada is the business, finance, and administrative occupations which is 16% of the population. 7 Prepared by Abdul Malik Mujahid with assistance from Amerah Egab in http://www.soundvision.com/article/profile-of-muslims-in-canada Infact according to the same news article posted by the National post, quotes Immigrants to Canada cost the federal government as much as $23-billion annually, which puts immigration to this country as one of our largest expenses, to which we receive 250,000 new Canadians every year... But to be fair to the topic we are talking about refugees here, and not immigrants, because refugees do not have to meet the same standard as immigrants do they ? and why should they.....refugees can cost even more than immigrants, they don't have the skills we are looking for, so we must train them , they don't have the cash to sustain them, so we have to provide for them, they don't have the same level of education , another expense... If you engaged and knew Muslims, there is no way you would believe the things that you are saying. Just because the governments of some of these countries have laws that are terrible, it doesn't mean that this is a reflection of what all the people think. If you knew Lebanese, Iranians, a Pakistanis, an Egyptians, you would realize how silly a person like you sounds, when you generalize and group them all with one label, because they come from Muslim countries. Even within those countries and ethnic backgrounds, there is a huge variety of people with different beliefs and views on everything. I've engaged 100's of muslims all over the middle east from Pakistan, Afghanistan,Egypt, even gaza strip, and your right they are not all bad, most where good people, friendly, polite, even giving in certain ways, but that is not to say they're culture and religion does not make a huge divide, between ours....like oil and water.... For instance our interpreter who was excepted into Canada under a special program, would give his shirt off his back if you asked for it. But he had very strong opinions on women, and their roles, none of them very flattering to the point they were regressive.... We did not talk much about our religious beliefs as the conversation would quickly turn into heated arguments....His religious and culture beliefs were ingrained into his personality, and he was not going to change them....for instance he did not believe we were his equals, not because he hated white guys, or the west, but rather his religion dictated it.... We would sometimes joke about how he was going to have to change when he came to Canada, to which he always replied Why, i am who i am, i can not change that..... Does all this ensite make me an expert, shit NO, what it taught me is to respect them for who they are, not to discuss politics or religion with any muslim....So when some one says that everything will go as planed, nothing will happen, these are JUST people i have concerns.....concerns of safety, concerns about how they will adjust to our our culture, and how will that adjustment effect me.....if the adjustment can be made at all..... I'm not the only Canadian that thinks like this, many ex muslims also have concerns....and i'm sure they are not racist , but rather enlighten over the whole Islam thing..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted November 26, 2015 Report Share Posted November 26, 2015 If that were the case, Canadians would have "aboriginal" phobias as well because of arbitrary borders. Do they ? Some conservatives seem too but for the rest of us we have reconciliation and treaty process'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drummindiver Posted November 27, 2015 Report Share Posted November 27, 2015 I'd love to discuss the other comments you made about different cultures and integration, but first, you need to come clean and take ownership for the disgusting comment that was made. How do you reach the keyboard from your high horse? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 27, 2015 Report Share Posted November 27, 2015 How do you reach the keyboard from your high horse? It's wireless? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drummindiver Posted November 27, 2015 Report Share Posted November 27, 2015 Everything you say here is true. I have found the Koran contradictory on many matters. It does say in some places to treat people of other religions kindly and in other places instructs Muslims to kill them. But on the matters of the inferiority of women, homosexuality, adultery, marriage laws and many other issues, I found no contradictions. Thats why abrogation is part and parcel of Islam. All the juicy violent hadiths and passages which come later supersede the less violent ones earlier on. Contradiction solved! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestCoastRunner Posted November 27, 2015 Report Share Posted November 27, 2015 (edited) As I keep mentioning, I've never said "all". ---SNIP--- Speaking as a bottom of the barrel poster, you are seriously backpedalling. And you don't even recognize it. If you live in a small community in the interior, we can bet you do not have a high percentage of other ethnicities as you like to portray, especially in the numbers you relay to us. If this were true, your community would welcome refugees, which you seem to imply they don't. So which is it? Do you live in a vanilla community or not? Edited November 27, 2015 by Charles Anthony excessive quoting [---SNIP---] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestCoastRunner Posted November 27, 2015 Report Share Posted November 27, 2015 I don't have a problem with Richmond, Surrey or any other community that is being dragged through the mud. I love shopping in Asian malls, eating at Asian restaurants and yes we even sleep with non white men. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestCoastRunner Posted November 27, 2015 Report Share Posted November 27, 2015 What on earth is going to happen to those babies born from white men establishing relationships with those Syrian female refugees. I don't suppose they will grow up to be meaningful citizens of Canada? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestCoastRunner Posted November 27, 2015 Report Share Posted November 27, 2015 This whole thread is nothing but Canadian folks lashing out to folks they are scared of. I have a suggestion to get past this. Volunteer with a refugee family. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted November 27, 2015 Report Share Posted November 27, 2015 Speaking as a bottom of the barrel poster, you are seriously backpedalling. And you don't even recognize it. If you live in a small community in the interior, we can bet you do not have a high percentage of other ethnicities as you like to portray, especially in the numbers you relay to us. If this were true, your community would welcome refugees, which you seem to imply they don't. So which is it? Do you live in a vanilla community or not? Given the only thing you know about where she lives is its in BC, which is a pretty damn multi-ethnic area, I think you might reconsider whether you have enough information to call her a liar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestCoastRunner Posted November 27, 2015 Report Share Posted November 27, 2015 Given the only thing you know about where she lives is its in BC, which is a pretty damn multi-ethnic area, I think you might reconsider whether you have enough information to call her a liar. Which is why I am puzzled by her responses. Kimmy insists she is surrounded by multi cultural ethnicities but they seem to be offended by refuge gees. I'm just trying to set the record straight. For the most part, multi cultural communities welcome refugees so therein lies my confusion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Army Guy Posted November 27, 2015 Report Share Posted November 27, 2015 What on earth is going to happen to those babies born from white men establishing relationships with those Syrian female refugees. I don't suppose they will grow up to be meaningful citizens of Canada? Unless they "all those white men" are of the muslim faith that is not going to happen...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestCoastRunner Posted November 27, 2015 Report Share Posted November 27, 2015 Unless they "all those white men" are of the muslim faith that is not going to happen...... Well, thank goodness for that. I don't need to hide under my bed when those Syrian women refugees come to Canada. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Army Guy Posted November 27, 2015 Report Share Posted November 27, 2015 This whole thread is nothing but Canadian folks lashing out to folks they are scared of. I have a suggestion to get past this. Volunteer with a refugee family. Yes them damn racist Canadian folks again....lashing out on poor defenseless folks.....And yet thousands of these folks are already in europe , where the european liberal minded folks, like the ones that think bringing in these folks is a good idea...... decided it would be the Right thing to bring them folks in" and now that it is to late, they are second guessing their decision......Go on line and watch the thousands of u tubes on this very topic..... Want a feel good mission to grab onto, how about spending 1.25 billion on our own people......clean water in the north, or the homeless, shit pick one our back yard is full of problems that need attention.....Why in the blue blazes would we want to just add to these problems...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestCoastRunner Posted November 27, 2015 Report Share Posted November 27, 2015 (edited) Yes them damn racist Canadian folks again....lashing out on poor defenseless folks.....And yet thousands of these folks are already in europe , where the european liberal minded folks, like the ones that think bringing in these folks is a good idea...... decided it would be the Right thing to bring them folks in" and now that it is to late, they are second guessing their decision......Go on line and watch the thousands of u tubes on this very topic..... Want a feel good mission to grab onto, how about spending 1.25 billion on our own people......clean water in the north, or the homeless, shit pick one our back yard is full of problems that need attention.....Why in the blue blazes would we want to just add to these problems...... As I have stayed in the past, Canadians don't give two f**** about what happens in the north or anywhere else. Edited November 27, 2015 by Michael Hardner language Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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