Islamophobia in Canada

[Guest]

20 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

Looking like more hate mongers like this guy are doing what they do ... Again.

 

Please, all of you Muslim haters on here DO step up and rationalize the murder of a family.  Let's hear it again now, you have never been shy about hating Muslims before.

 

Your team scored four yesterday, so don't be a sore winner.

 

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/london/london-pedestrians-killed-man-in-custody-1.6056238

It's funny you should say that, but I recently read a phrase in a book that stuck with me.  It spoke of a peace:  "The kind where people can be angry with each other and hate each other and no-one has to die over it."

If you think we should all shut up about those who die for blaspheming, or go to a torture prison for refusing to wear a veil, or swing from a crane for being homosexual, in order to try and make sure some people who are, in all likelihood, innocent of thinking those are crimes, don't die over it, you should say so.  I would disagree, and reinforce our right to speak the truth. 

How disgusting Islam is as a religion doesn't change because some extremist took into his own hands to do something about it, anymore than it does when a Sunni bastard blows up a Shia wedding. 

The guy who did this was no bigger a bastard than them.  Just the same.

 

Edited June 8, 2021 by bcsapper

[CITIZEN_2015]

2 hours ago, bcsapper said:

 

If you think we should all shut up about those who die for blaspheming, or go to a torture prison for refusing to wear a veil, or swing from a crane for being homosexual, in order to try and make sure some people who are, in all likelihood, innocent of thinking those are crimes, don't die over it, you should say so.  I would disagree, and reinforce our right to speak the truth. 

How disgusting Islam is as a religion doesn't change because some extremist took into his own hands to do something about it, anymore than it does when a Sunni bastard blows up a Shia wedding. 

The guy who did this was no bigger a bastard than them.  Just the same.

 

What the hell has a family of 4 including a 15 year old girl got to do with any of this!!!!!!!!!????. Then go to those lands and truck them over but only those who murder and torture those innocents who refuse to obey them if you have the balls to do so but it is utmost cowardly and despicable to murder a family just because they happen to believe in a different faith of their own choice.

And what the hell has murdering a family that included a 15 year old girl got  to do with doing something about a disgusting faith? It just proves that the hate ideology or phobia is far more disgusting.

Edited June 8, 2021 by CITIZEN_2015

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

What the hell has a family of 4 including a 15 year old girl got to do with any of this!!!!!!!!!????. Then go to those lands and truck them over but only those who murder and torture those innocents who refuse to obey them if you have the balls to do so but it is utmost cowardly and despicable to murder a family just because they happen to believe in a different faith of their own choice.

And what the hell has murdering a family that included a 15 year old girl got  to do with doing something about a disgusting faith? It just proves that the hate ideology or phobia is far more disgusting.

You didn't read my post, did you?  You just knee jerked right in there, just like MH did.

[CITIZEN_2015]

21 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

You didn't read my post, did you?  You just knee jerked right in there, just like MH did.

Yes while you are apparently condemning the evil coward who did it but at the same time trying to reason that maybe it stems from what you see as a disgusting faith which clearly the victims did not see it that way. You are using (abusing) freedom of speech to justify online hate. 

It is one thing to tell the truth about a disgusting faith but another to create so much hate against believers and provoke some psycho idiot into  committing mass murder.

Edited June 8, 2021 by CITIZEN_2015

[Guest]

11 minutes ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

Yes while you are trying to condemn the evil coward who did it but at the same time trying to reason that maybe it stems from what you see as a disgusting faith which clearly the victims did not see it that way. You are using (abusing) freedom of speech to justify online hate. 

It is one thing to tell the truth about a disgusting faith but another to create so much hate against believers and provoke some psycho idiot into  committing mass murder.

No it isn't .  Telling the truth about a disgusting faith is just telling the truth. 

Are you of the opinion that the truth should be censored, because of what might happen?

I didn't reason anything.  I posted against such reasoning

Edited June 8, 2021 by bcsapper

[CITIZEN_2015]

Just now, bcsapper said:

No it isn't .  Telling the truth about a disgusting faith is just telling the truth. 

Are you of the opinion that the truth should be censored, because of what might happen?

The truth is in the eyes of beholder. No the truth should be told but those who have by choice a truth of their own or see a different truth should not be attacked online or on streets. Otherwise you turn our land into a hateland pulling us all into a civil war. 

[Guest]

Just now, CITIZEN_2015 said:

The truth is in the eyes of beholder. No the truth should be told but those who have by choice a truth of their own or see a different truth should not be attacked online or on streets. Otherwise you turn our land into a hateland pulling us all into a civil war. 

What? 

If the truth should be told than what is the problem?  Tell me what part of any of my posts here are not based on the truth.

Which bits would you suggest we hide from?

Who do you blame?

[CITIZEN_2015]

8 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

What? 

If the truth should be told than what is the problem?  Tell me what part of any of my posts here are not based on the truth.

Which bits would you suggest we hide from?

Who do you blame?

I haven't read all your posts just the one above and it appears that while you condemn the action taker however trying to ease or undermine its evilness by how disgusting the faith which those victims happen to believe in is.

There is no justification for this action. Period.

Edited June 8, 2021 by CITIZEN_2015

[Guest]

1 minute ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

I haven't read all your posts just the one above and it appears that while you condemn the action taker however trying to ease or undermine its evilness by how disgusting the faith which those victims happen to believe in is.

No, what I'm doing is saying that the crime is not the fault of those who tell the truth about Islam, any more than last summer's riots were the fault of CNN for reporting on George Floyd

[dialamah]

3 hours ago, bcsapper said:

It's funny you should say that, but I recently read a phrase in a book that stuck with me.  It spoke of a peace:  "The kind where people can be angry with each other and hate each other and no-one has to die over it."

If you think we should all shut up about those who die for blaspheming, or go to a torture prison for refusing to wear a veil, or swing from a crane for being homosexual, in order to try and make sure some people who are, in all likelihood, innocent of thinking those are crimes, don't die over it, you should say so.  I would disagree, and reinforce our right to speak the truth. 

How disgusting Islam is as a religion doesn't change because some extremist took into his own hands to do something about it, anymore than it does when a Sunni bastard blows up a Shia wedding. 

The guy who did this was no bigger a bastard than them.  Just the same.

 

Why are you attacking MH for calling out people who feel the same about Muslims as the killer in this news story?  If we're to call out people for killing others because they're "different", why shouldn't Islamaphobes be called out too?   Are we only allowed to call out Islam/Muslims for murdering innocents? 

"How disgusting Islam is as a religion doesn't change because some extremist took into his own hands to do something about it,"

Do you, in your heart of hearts, think this Muslim family deserved to be mowed down because their religion is disgusting?   

[CITIZEN_2015]

1 minute ago, bcsapper said:

No, what I'm doing is saying that the crime is not the fault of those who tell the truth about Islam, any more than last summer's riots were the fault of CNN for reporting on George Floyd

As I said it will provoke psychos who are few but still exist into taking the wrong action. There are milder ways of telling the truth not to create hate or be provocative. As an example I would say as per my posts that those who do not believe in equality of women and respect for women and respect for other religions and equality of races must be barred from immigrating to Canada (that includes anyone regardless of what particular faith) rather than pointing my fingers at any certain faith or ideology

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, dialamah said:

Why are you attacking MH for calling out people who feel the same about Muslims as the killer in this news story?  If we're to call out people for killing others because they're "different", why shouldn't Islamaphobes be called out too?   Are we only allowed to call out Islam/Muslims for murdering innocents? 

"How disgusting Islam is as a religion doesn't change because some extremist took into his own hands to do something about it,"

Do you, in your heart of hearts, think this Muslim family deserved to be mowed down because their religion is disgusting?   

You already know the answer to that last question.  After all this time, I'm surprised you asked it. 

MH talked of

all of you Muslim haters on here DO step up and rationalize the murder of a family.

as though, somehow, we should pretend Islam is just fine in order to prevent something like this from happening. 

Should we?

 

Edited June 8, 2021 by bcsapper

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

As I said it will provoke psychos who are few but still exist into taking the wrong action. There are milder ways of telling the truth not to create hate or be provocative. As an example I would say as per my posts that those who do not believe in equality of women and respect for women and respect for other religions and equality of races must be barred from immigrating to Canada (that includes anyone regardless of what particular faith) rather than pointing my fingers at any certain faith or ideology

Right!  Barbaric cultural practices should be banned, regardless of who practices them.

At least we agree on something.

[Guest]

It's funny how people willfully misrepresent a post when it suits their views.

MH blamed the act, not on the perpetrator, but on those who find Islam to be a repressive, harmful religion, (which it is) and have no compunction about saying so.  (On here, as though he knows something we, and the police, don't)

What would you suggest we do?  Ignore the excesses of a religion that holds that the death penalty is the appropriate punishment for blasphemy, homosexuality or adultery?  Ignore a religion that puts women in jail for years for refusing to wear a veil, and even longer for defending those women?

Are we to hush, because someone might lose control and commit a crime?  Should we do that with every ideology we find repugnant?  Or even those we don't, if someone might take it upon themselves to act in a manner we would not ever consider ourselves?

Of course not.  Islam has no more a right to freedom from criticism that any other poisonous ideology, regardless of what might result from that criticism.

[dialamah]

7 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

It's funny how people willfully misrepresent a post when it suits their views.

MH blamed the act, not on the perpetrator, but on those who find Islam to be a repressive, harmful religion, (which it is) and have no compunction about saying so.  (On here, as though he knows something we, and the police, don't)

What would you suggest we do?  Ignore the excesses of a religion that holds that the death penalty is the appropriate punishment for blasphemy, homosexuality or adultery?  Ignore a religion that puts women in jail for years for refusing to wear a veil, and even longer for defending those women?

Are we to hush, because someone might lose control and commit a crime?  Should we do that with every ideology we find repugnant?  Or even those we don't, if someone might take it upon themselves to act in a manner we would not ever consider ourselves?

Of course not.  Islam has no more a right to freedom from criticism that any other poisonous ideology, regardless of what might result from that criticism.

But we aren't supposed to criticize people who misrepresent Muslims as all being extremists, apparently.  And when one of those people runs over a family, we should simply accept that he was doing "something about" the disgusting religion of Islam.  

[Guest]

Just now, dialamah said:

But we aren't supposed to criticize people who misrepresent Muslims as all being extremists, apparently.  And when one of those people runs over a family, we should simply accept that he was doing "something about" the disgusting religion of Islam.  

Says who?  You can criticize whomever you want. 

You shouldn't make stuff up though.  One of the favourite arguments against calling Islam what it is is the "all Muslims" argument.  We've done that to death.  As I've said many times in the past, if all Muslims were extremists, we'd all be dead.  There are an awful lot of them.

That many of them are not extremists is simply a good reason to ignore them.  Like we do with everyone else who isn't.

[dialamah]

41 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

You already know the answer to that last question.  After all this time, I'm surprised you asked it. 

MH talked of

all of you Muslim haters on here DO step up and rationalize the murder of a family.

as though, somehow, we should pretend Islam is just fine in order to prevent something like this from happening. 

Should we?

How often have people on here, specifically the ones MH is referring to, declared that moderate Muslims should step up and condemn the acts of Islamic extremists?  When Islam haters have one of their own go rogue, why aren't they stepping forward to condemn that act?  Do they secretly approve some "doing something" about that religion?  

Nobody pretends Islam is just fine. 

Too many pretend that every Muslim is one prayer away from killing the nearest non-Muslim.  

The hatred and ignorance shown by the anti-Muslim posters is no different than the hatred and ignorance shown by anti-Western Muslims.

[dialamah]

4 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

Says who?  You can criticize whomever you want. 

Not when you are in the job, though.  MH can't criticize the people who consider all Muslims the same as the worst of them.  

And anyone who thinks a guy who ran down a family did it because he had to "do something" about the religion is not nearly as unbiased as he pretends 

[Guest]

Just now, dialamah said:

How often have people on here, specifically the ones MH is referring to, declared that moderate Muslims should step up and condemn the acts of Islamic extremists?  When Islam haters have one of their own go rogue, why aren't they stepping forward to condemn that act?  Do they secretly approve some "doing something" about that religion?  

Nobody pretends Islam is just fine. 

Too many pretend that every Muslim is one prayer away from killing the nearest non-Muslim.  

The hatred and ignorance shown by the anti-Muslim posters is no different than the hatred and ignorance shown by anti-Western Muslims.

Well, it's not something I've declared.  It would be like me taking responsibility for colonialism.  I have stated it would be a good thing, helpful, but certainly not a responsibility.

That said, are they to blame for the murders? 

And who would not condemn the act?  It's odd that such condemnation would not be a given.  I certainly thought it was.

As to your last point, Anti-Western Muslims (generally) are against women's rights, gay rights, freedom of speech and expression, etc.  Anti-Muslim westerners are (generally) for those things, and it is that that makes their views anti-Muslim.  I say generally because there are always outliers.

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, dialamah said:

Not when you are in the job, though.  MH can't criticize the people who consider all Muslims the same as the worst of them.  

And anyone who thinks a guy who ran down a family did it because he had to "do something" about the religion is not nearly as unbiased as he pretends 

He can.  Did.  I opposed his views.  Vehemently.  That's why we are here, after all.

I certainly agree with your last point.  But then, none of us is unbiased.

Edited June 8, 2021 by bcsapper

[Guest]

11 minutes ago, dialamah said:

And anyone who thinks a guy who ran down a family did it because he had to "do something" about the religion is not nearly as unbiased as he pretends 

Looking back on this, I'm a little bit concerned about what you mean here.  You do realise that when I say:

40 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

What would you suggest we do?  Ignore the excesses of a religion that holds that the death penalty is the appropriate punishment for blasphemy, homosexuality or adultery?  Ignore a religion that puts women in jail for years for refusing to wear a veil, and even longer for defending those women?

I'm talking about talking about it.  Right?  Nothing else.

[Yzermandius19]

as usual

MH slanders anyone who criticizes Islam or some Muslim's as hating them

and is such a terrible judge of character of those he disagrees with

that he assumes they will justify the murder of a family simply because of the religion they follow

yet none of the people who he claims hate Islam or Muslim's, have done anything close to that since he made that idiotic assumption that they would

clearly he is not a person who can rationally discuss this issue, hence demonizing a strawman as his go to argument

Edited June 8, 2021 by Yzermandius19

[Michael Hardner]

So, misrepresenting a post also encompasses misrepresenting one's own posts.

"Criticism of Islam" does not mean vilifying people who adhere to a faith/creed and saying they should not be permitted in Canada.  That is scapegoating, vilifying and elementary hate-mongering.  The people who use this flawed logic are closed off to arguments that the arguments don't work, and are never universally applied.

Furthermore, these arguments inflame people who are on-the-edge such as the one who killed innocent worshipers in a Quebec mosque awhile ago.

So BCSapper and Yzermandius have put their hands up to help facilitate that kind of hate-mongering so far.  Who else?

[Yzermandius19]

11 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

Furthermore, these arguments inflame people who are on-the-edge such as the one who killed innocent worshipers in a Quebec mosque awhile ago.

any argument no matter how well reasoned or well intentioned 

can inflame people on the edge

that doesn't make the people making that argument

responsible for the actions of people on the edge

Marilyn Manson is not responsible for Columbine

PewDiePie is not responsible for Christchurch

people who criticize Islamic extremists are not responsible for hate crimes against Muslim's either

 

you're the hate monger

hating anyone who dares criticize Islam or any Muslim

viewing them as an inherently hateful person

just for voicing that criticism

stop projecting your own faults on others

and look in the mirror

before throwing stones from your glass house

Edited June 8, 2021 by Yzermandius19

[Guest]

9 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

So, misrepresenting a post also encompasses misrepresenting one's own posts.

"Criticism of Islam" does not mean vilifying people who adhere to a faith/creed and saying they should not be permitted in Canada.  That is scapegoating, vilifying and elementary hate-mongering.  The people who use this flawed logic are closed off to arguments that the arguments don't work, and are never universally applied.

Furthermore, these arguments inflame people who are on-the-edge such as the one who killed innocent worshipers in a Quebec mosque awhile ago.

So BCSapper and Yzermandius have put their hands up to help facilitate that kind of hate-mongering so far.  Who else?

Rubbish.  I never could understand the blindness the left has when it comes to Islam.  Those who would normally be at the front of the line advocating for the rights of women and homosexuals develop cast iron blinkers when it comes to Islam.

It's always been completely baffling to me.

Show me where I've vilified people who didn't thoroughly deserve it, and anywhere that I've said that someone should not be allowed in Canada if you would allow them in Canada.

If you are of the mind that criticism of Islam should be restricted by law then just say so.  Don't be a coward about it.

Advocating for the freedom of expression also used to be leftist position, if I remember correctly.  Another one gone when it comes to Islam.

Edited June 8, 2021 by bcsapper