capricorn Posted August 5, 2017 Report Posted August 5, 2017 27 minutes ago, Omni said: Except they can't after January, so I guess it's any port in a storm time. Apparently, many Haitians in the US affected by this situation had jobs, owned homes etc. So why couldn't they have applied for permanent residency status? And why have they not done before now since they've known for a time this was coming? Are we (or they) sure they would all be refused such an application and returned to Haiti? "We always want the best man to win an election. Unfortunately, he never runs." Will Rogers
GostHacked Posted August 5, 2017 Report Posted August 5, 2017 On 8/4/2017 at 1:03 PM, Rue said: cite: http://www.chabad.org/blogs/blog_cdo/aid/672377/jewish/Teaching-Kids-Not-to-Argue.htm "Remember: your goal is to teach your child how to be a pleasant person, not how to get what he wants. To this end, you can teach him the "I Don't Argue With You" Rule. It works like this: Your child makes a request You answer "yes" and that ends the conversation. Or, you answer "no" offering just a brief reason. End of Round One. Your child asks again. You say, "let me think about this" (for as long as you need to, considering the issue. Make sure you are comfortable with the answer you choose). Then you change your mind if you wish to (this is the ONLY place in the conversation that you can do this) and you now say "yes." Or, you reiterate, "No." You have the option of adding the phrase, "And that's the end of the conversation." End of Round Two and End of Your Part of the Conversation. Start doing something else. Your child continues to make new, interesting points building his argument for his side. Each sentence is a new Round. He follows you around, dramatically pleading his case. You do not respond to him. Answer to question is unclear. Please try again.
Omni Posted August 5, 2017 Report Posted August 5, 2017 5 minutes ago, capricorn said: Apparently, many Haitians in the US affected by this situation had jobs, owned homes etc. So why couldn't they have applied for permanent residency status? And why have they not done before now since they've known for a time this was coming? Are we (or they) sure they would all be refused such an application and returned to Haiti? I don't know how many had jobs or owned homes, but applying for permanent residency status would likely be difficult because, they are in the country as asylum seekers and the DHS considers Haiti to be a safe country, and of course there is the current political situation which wants to build walls and deport anybody who is not white it seems.
capricorn Posted August 5, 2017 Report Posted August 5, 2017 5 minutes ago, Omni said: I don't know how many had jobs or owned homes, but applying for permanent residency status would likely be difficult because, they are in the country as asylum seekers Those Haitians are not in the US as asylum seekers. They are in the US because Obama granted them Temporary Protected Status, or TPS, following the earthquake. That program has already been extended once and it expires in January. There are 58,000 Haitians registered under that program. "We always want the best man to win an election. Unfortunately, he never runs." Will Rogers
Omni Posted August 5, 2017 Report Posted August 5, 2017 3 minutes ago, capricorn said: Those Haitians are not in the US as asylum seekers. They are in the US because Obama granted them Temporary Protected Status, or TPS, following the earthquake. That program has already been extended once and it expires in January. There are 58,000 Haitians registered under that program. That's correct, and as I pointed out originally, it ends in January next.
Argus Posted August 5, 2017 Report Posted August 5, 2017 1 hour ago, capricorn said: Apparently, many Haitians in the US affected by this situation had jobs, owned homes etc. So why couldn't they have applied for permanent residency status? And why have they not done before now since they've known for a time this was coming? Are we (or they) sure they would all be refused such an application and returned to Haiti? Well if they're like a lot of the Somalians heading into Mannitoba many have criminal records. "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
hot enough Posted August 6, 2017 Report Posted August 6, 2017 7 hours ago, Argus said: Well if they're like a lot of the Somalians heading into Mannitoba many have criminal records. Are there any who are war criminals/terrorists of the Bush, Cheney, Bush, Clinton, ... variety? 1
jacee Posted August 6, 2017 Report Posted August 6, 2017 Well, this thread is about Islamophobia in Canada, but has now degenerated into the usual generalized stereotypes and anti-immigrant hysteria. 2
Argus Posted August 6, 2017 Report Posted August 6, 2017 18 minutes ago, jacee said: Well, this thread is about Islamophobia in Canada, but has now degenerated into the usual generalized stereotypes and anti-immigrant hysteria. It's 241 bloody pages long. Just how long do you think it can stick to a particular narrow topic? "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
dialamah Posted August 6, 2017 Report Posted August 6, 2017 On 8/3/2017 at 3:41 PM, OftenWrong said: First, I am not anti-Muslim per se. It's not about the religion. I work with some men who are Muslim every day and they are perfectly normal, they love their wife and daughter. But you are not listening to the argument, when you hear criticism such as I have outlines all you read is anti-islamic, anti-immigration". I've been clear on this before so you should know better than this. What I oppose is certain cultural attitudes that are fully accepted in countries in the ME and Africa, including but not limited to misogyny. Part of it comes from their religion. Take note of the fact the the new and old testament contain passages that are quite violent, which is the way it was everywhere when you go far enough back in time. We in the west have only recently come out of this and changed our thinking on women's rights, gay rights. Our cultural attitudes changed and I believe it's necessary to make them change to become like us, not the other way around. The story you posted does not mention that this guy lied about not having been told it was illegal in Canada to beat one's wife. When the story first came out, that little tidbit was mostly ignored but it could be found in a couple of more credible media sources. This time, when I went looking for that factoid, it was four pages in, after all the right-wing, anti-immigrant articles about refugees who 'don't know any better'. This guy did know better, but to admit that in these articles undermines their argument against immigration and against Muslims. There are 100s of thousands of Muslim men in Canada who do not beat their wives, who do not kill their daughters, who do not engage in any of the practices the right-wing media tries so hard to portray as common-place. There are 100s of thousands of Muslim women who do not wear niqab or burka or even a headscarf, but the entire focus of right-wing media is those that do. But that's not news, right? That's not going to support the argument that Muslims are unable to live in Canada and behave properly. People wonder why I don't give a lot of credence to stories of rape epidemics in Europe and the above is why. How can I take any media that focuses so heavily on only a single aspect of a complex situation? You and others may think that middle-of-the-road and left-wing media don't pay enough attention to the 'bad' that Muslims do, but at least they report everything, not just one side. That means that while Huffington Post may post an article more sympathetic to a Muslim who beats his wife, at least they report it. Unlike, for instance, your source - which posted only that part of the story that supported their agenda and as far as I could determine, You may not be anti-Muslim or anti-Immigrant, but you certainly are easily led Quote Second, since they are brought up in a culture where women are second rate, possessions equivalent to goats or what have you, without the right to go to school or drive, this is what they understand to be completely normal. I noted that the women in the article tried to cover it up and defend her husband. That's not uncommon even in our country when women are in abusive relationships, some women seem to go for guys who like to beat them up. They think they deserve it. They need help to change that attitude. The difference between the west and those countries is that we have laws to protect her rights, and support systems to help her. In places like Pakistan, Afghanistan, Saudi, other "backward" nations all Muslim in fact, they have no rights. Having a reasonable discussion with someone about the lack of rights women are afforded in many countries is possible, even with me. However, when someone says about 1.5 billion people that 'they are brought up in a cultures where women are second rate, possessions equivalent to goats or what have you, without the right to go to school and drive" ... well, so much for reasoned discussion. The fact is that what you say is (somewhat) true in Saudi Arabia, but in Egypt, women can drive, hold down jobs and are encouraged to go to school. The legal age of marriage for girls is 18 - the same as Canada, and older than what is legal in many States. Other Muslim countries have different laws and cultural standards. Pointing out these differences in women's status in Saudi vs. Egypt doesn't automatically mean I think Egypt is some paradise of female equality, because it isn't. And, just like in Canada - what is 'legal' isn't always what happens so no doubt girls younger than 18 marry. But people who paint a broad brush, as you do, on every single Muslim country/society/person as if they are exactly the same isn't trying to have a reasonable discussion about the issue of female equality or rights in Muslim-majority countries, or what challenges and cultural adjustments immigrants might face when they come to Canada: they are merely interested in 'proving' how backward, ignorant, misogynistic and unacceptable Muslims are. Quote You know that so stop lying and making me into the monster you want me to be, just so that you feel like you're right. I don't *want* you to be a monster, what a remarkably stupid thing to say. And I am right. If you had any sense of history and the way in which public opinion is swayed against certain groups, you'd understand that the rhetoric against Muslims today is the same as the rhetoric that was used against Japanese in Canada and the States and in Germany against the Jews. Those groups were accused of undermining the cultural fabric of the society, of having an agenda to take over and impose their culture or laws on everyone, of being a threat to women and children - the same narrative being pushed by the anti-Muslim movement today. I have to admit that a part of me is fascinated watching the way in which people are swayed - I had always wondered how a whole society could turn a blind eye to what happened to the Japanese in Canada and the Jews in Germany. And while I assume that we will never get to the point where Muslims are rounded up and put into camps, I now see how that process happens, and that is really very interesting to me. However, the compassionate side of me doesn't want us going down that road at all, and so I continue to object to the the one-sided conversation the right-wing wants to have. 1
dialamah Posted August 6, 2017 Report Posted August 6, 2017 On 8/3/2017 at 4:00 PM, Rue said: As Jew I often see anti semites trivialize the holocaust by taking the word and applying it to other forms of massacre and hatred and saying its no different and why do Jews make a big deal about it. Just saw this post. I have to say that I cannot imagine the pain and trauma of having this in your history. i want to also say I am impressed by your ability to take a more moderate view of Muslims overall, considering that there is still a sizable contingent who continue to hate and target Jews and given how horribly Jews have already suffered from hatred in recent memory. Thank you for demonstrating what I consider true humanity, and which I believe the majority of humans are both capable of and willing to do. Too bad your views on JT are so wrong, though. 1
Argus Posted August 6, 2017 Report Posted August 6, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, dialamah said: Having a reasonable discussion with someone about the lack of rights women are afforded in many countries is possible, even with me. However, when someone says about 1.5 billion people that 'they are brought up in a cultures where women are second rate, possessions equivalent to goats or what have you, without the right to go to school and drive" ... well, so much for reasoned discussion. The fact is that what you say is (somewhat) true in Saudi Arabia, but in Egypt, women can drive, hold down jobs and are encouraged to go to school. The legal age of marriage for girls is 18 - the same as Canada, and older than what is legal in many States. Other Muslim countries have different laws and cultural standards. Uh uh. And in not one of those fifty odd Muslim countries is there anything approaching gender equality before government or courts. Do you imagine this a coincidence unrelated to the one thing they all share - Islam? When the majority of Canadian Muslim women wear hijabs and burkas do you ever consider the religious reason for doing so is itself extraordinarily sexist and misogynistic? Someone pointed out earlier how disgusted they were to see a Muslim man walking comfortably down the street in summer clothes, and trailing obediently behind him was a black clad creature that one would assume was his wife. She is covered up so that he won't be offended that other men might look at her - as she belongs to him. She is covered up so that men won't be aroused by looking at her (though no one ever worries about the women being aroused by men, apparently). The inherent contempt for women and fear of their sexuality permeates Arab society - including Egypt, where almost all women have been sexually mutilated for fear they will otherwise enjoy sex and become whores, and whatever Muslims might say about the Koran being the direct word of God, those social views fill the Koran and Hadiths. Quote I have to admit that a part of me is fascinated watching the way in which people are swayed - I had always wondered how a whole society could turn a blind eye to what happened to the Japanese in Canada and the Jews in Germany. And while I assume that we will never get to the point where Muslims are rounded up and put into camps, I now see how that process happens, No, you don't. There is no organized effort to make Muslims look bad. They do that themselves. All you really see in here is a very age old story of intrusion by one tribe into another tribe's territory. Their customs and beliefs and values are entirely, even radically different - and in some ways run totally counter to that of the locals, and many members of the original tribe resent it and want them to either change or leave. Edited August 6, 2017 by Argus "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
dialamah Posted August 7, 2017 Report Posted August 7, 2017 On 8/3/2017 at 9:17 AM, Argus said: Anyone who doesn't like any aspect of Islam. More accurately, it's the notion that Muslims are to be feared and hated because they are "too different" from us. Disliking cultural norms that discriminate against women, gays, minorities, etc., isn't Islamaphobia - unless the cultural norms in other cultures are ignored, while used to condemn Muslims.
bush_cheney2004 Posted August 7, 2017 Report Posted August 7, 2017 "Women, gays, minorities" and of course "aboriginals" have suffered discrimination long before refugee Muslims arrived in Canada. What's so special about Muslims ? Economics trumps Virtue.
Omni Posted August 7, 2017 Report Posted August 7, 2017 3 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said: "Women, gays, minorities" and of course "aboriginals" have suffered discrimination long before refugee Muslims arrived in Canada. What's so special about Muslims ? Same happened and still continues in the US. What's so special about Canada?
bush_cheney2004 Posted August 7, 2017 Report Posted August 7, 2017 1 minute ago, Omni said: Same happened and still continues in the US. What's so special about Canada? Canada has far fewer Muslims and mosques. Muslim war criminals also get $10.5 milion each. Economics trumps Virtue.
Omni Posted August 7, 2017 Report Posted August 7, 2017 1 minute ago, bush_cheney2004 said: Canada has far fewer Muslims and mosques. Muslim war criminals also get $10.5 milion each. Only when they are illegally detained and convicted by a Yankee kangaroo court.
jacee Posted August 7, 2017 Report Posted August 7, 2017 On 2017-8-5 at 3:51 PM, Argus said: Well if they're like a lot of the Somalians heading into Mannitoba many have criminal records. Evidence please?
Argus Posted August 7, 2017 Report Posted August 7, 2017 1 hour ago, dialamah said: More accurately, it's the notion that Muslims are to be feared and hated because they are "too different" from us. Disliking cultural norms that discriminate against women, gays, minorities, etc., isn't Islamaphobia - unless the cultural norms in other cultures are ignored, while used to condemn Muslims. If the Anglicans had the same cultural norms and were bringing them to Canada in large numbers (tens of thousands every year) and if those cultural norms were supported by their religion I'd be just as opposed to Anglican immigration as I am to Muslim immigration. And I don't 'fear and hate' Muslims. I simply do not consider them to be anywhere near the best kind of immigrants we could get, either culturally or economically. In fact, they're pretty much the worst. Thus there is no reason to bring them here and every reason not to. 1 "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted August 7, 2017 Report Posted August 7, 2017 32 minutes ago, jacee said: Evidence please? Nearly half of the asylum seekers crossing the Manitoba border illegally in the last few weeks are being detained because of serious criminal records, suggesting the profile of would-be refugee claimants is changing, according to the union representing border patrol officers. http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/illegal-border-crossers-criminal-records-cbsa-union-1.4069820 1 "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
OftenWrong Posted August 7, 2017 Report Posted August 7, 2017 On 2017-08-06 at 2:25 PM, dialamah said: I don't *want* you to be a monster, what a remarkably stupid thing to say. Sure you do, because no matter how many times I've explained myself, you exaggerate what I say as though I mean something else. You do it all the time. I am talking about specific cultural attitudes that directly conflict with ours, not a nationality, religion or a skin colour. But I am getting tired of explaining this simple concept to you. You simply do not understand, and at this point I doubt you ever will.
capricorn Posted August 7, 2017 Report Posted August 7, 2017 2 hours ago, Argus said: Nearly half of the asylum seekers crossing the Manitoba border illegally in the last few weeks are being detained because of serious criminal records, suggesting the profile of would-be refugee claimants is changing, according to the union representing border patrol officers. http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/illegal-border-crossers-criminal-records-cbsa-union-1.4069820 Thanks Argus, I was looking for that link and couldn't find it. Good info. "We always want the best man to win an election. Unfortunately, he never runs." Will Rogers
hot enough Posted August 7, 2017 Report Posted August 7, 2017 42 minutes ago, OftenWrong said: I am talking about specific cultural attitudes that directly conflict with ours, not a nationality, religion or a skin colour. Pure OftenWrong BS. Muslims have been in Canada and the US for a long time. You are reacting in a knee jerk brainwashed fashion. Sane people are not of your "ours" for you folks don't define what are cultural attitudes, you define close minded gullibility. All you Otherphobes haven't been on the same R bandwagon regarding Hutterites, Mennonites, ... . But you were likely one of the ones who were against other dark skinned immigrants.
hot enough Posted August 7, 2017 Report Posted August 7, 2017 On 8/3/2017 at 4:41 PM, OftenWrong said: including but not limited to misogyny. And yet you support Trump. 1
jacee Posted August 7, 2017 Report Posted August 7, 2017 (edited) 5 hours ago, OftenWrong said: I am talking about specific cultural attitudes that directly conflict with ours, not a nationality, religion or a skin colour. "Cultural attitudes" can change, and often have and still do from one generation of immigrants to the next generation of their children raised here. And the law takes care of any illegal behaviours. There is no valid argument for discriminating against Muslims in immigration. Edited August 8, 2017 by jacee 1
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