Scotty Posted November 22, 2015 Report Posted November 22, 2015 Missed this the first reply. And you clearly did not read the letter - it is filled with quotes from the Koran - both the good and the bad, and it clearly and directly tells Baghdadi all the ways in which he and his organization are NOT FOLLOWING the Koran or hadiths, and how their fatwas are not legal. It is the 'opinion' of 174 Muslim clerics and scholars around the world. It has also been endorsed by hundreds of additional Muslim scholars/clerics. There is no central unifying authority in Islam. There is no hierarchy. So there are literally many tens of thousands of clerics and hundreds of thousands of Islamic scholars, or men who call themselves that. And 174 of them signed a letter, in English, pleasing to the West. But that is beside the point. All over the Muslim world there are little boys now sitting on the floor, cross-legged, bobbing their heads up and down as they read the specific pages of the Koran they have been taught to read, memorizing them and reciting them aloud over and over again. And these quotations are in the Koran and Hadith, very clearly understandable, and read constantly. You can say some Muslim clerics disagree with them, but you cannot say they are are not there. It is an inverted moral calculus that tries to persuade the world to demonize one state that tries its civilized best to abide in a difficult time and place, and rides merrily by the examples and practices of dozens of states and leaderships that drop into brutality every day without a twinge of regret or a whisper of condemnation. - Rex Murphy
Scotty Posted November 22, 2015 Report Posted November 22, 2015 Your posts speak volumes. I am trying to remember you answering my posts with some sensible rebuttal but all I see is your hate for anyone who disagrees with your opinion. It is an inverted moral calculus that tries to persuade the world to demonize one state that tries its civilized best to abide in a difficult time and place, and rides merrily by the examples and practices of dozens of states and leaderships that drop into brutality every day without a twinge of regret or a whisper of condemnation. - Rex Murphy
Hal 9000 Posted November 22, 2015 Report Posted November 22, 2015 Then perhaps you should start a fund raiser to sponsor a family. I assure you, this will change your thinking if you dare to open your mind. And this goes to every Syrian basher out there. Moderate Muslim men still think that you personally have no value - And yes, I do know this for a fact. Some wacky sensitivity training isn't gonna change that, not that you'd ever get them there. The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant; it's just that they know so much that isn't so. - Ronald Reagan I have said that the Western world is just as violent as the Islamic world - Dialamah Europe seems to excel at fooling people to immigrate there from the ME only to chew them up and spit them back. - Eyeball Unfortunately our policies have contributed to retarding and limiting their (Muslim's) society's natural progression towards the same enlightened state we take for granted. - Eyeball
dialamah Posted November 22, 2015 Report Posted November 22, 2015 If you quote a site you really should use quotes right at the beginning. I read your post and presumed throughout that those were your words. Then I looked at your link and realized what you posted was actually copied and pasted from your link. Just sayin'. I understand the points raised in your link. All I'll say is that I don't agree that it is human nature to run for cover in the face of adversity. You are right, I was remiss. Not on purpose, just making dinner and typing - never a good combination. I understand not agreeing that it's human nature to run for cover in the face of adversity. And maybe you wouldn't; if everybody did, we'd never have soldiers volunteer. As a small illustration, I was on a bus once where a couple of women in headscarves got on, and an older woman started harassing them, calling them names and accusing them of nasty un-Canadian behavior. Out of about 40 people on the bus, only two stood up for the women who were being attacked; the rest sat silent. Did they agree with the old woman? Maybe; I'm sure at least some did. Did they mostly just not want to get involved? Probably. People don't usually "step up"; there've been studies done it. In the case of Syria, it's just not so simple that they 'either fight like a man" or "run like a coward". And, while we know that many people have left, we don't know how many have stayed to fight either. Syria has (had?) a population 22 Million and its estimated that 7 to 9 million people have left. That leaves a lot of people still in Syria, whether they're staying to fight or because they just can't leave. From what I understand, we aren't accepting unmarried young men as refugees, so it's not like the 'fighters' are coming over anyway.
WestCoastRunner Posted November 22, 2015 Report Posted November 22, 2015 I am trying to remember you answering my posts with some sensible rebuttal but all I see is your hate for anyone who disagrees with your opinion.No hate here. I love to see a young girl go out and grab the world by the lapels. Life's a bitch. You've got to go out and kick ass. - Maya Angelou
WestCoastRunner Posted November 22, 2015 Report Posted November 22, 2015 Moderate Muslim men still think that you personally have no value - And yes, I do know this for a fact. Some wacky sensitivity training isn't gonna change that, not that you'd ever get them there. I have patience. I love to see a young girl go out and grab the world by the lapels. Life's a bitch. You've got to go out and kick ass. - Maya Angelou
eyeball Posted November 22, 2015 Report Posted November 22, 2015 You know Gost, this is what gets to me. How come so many ME people opt to leave their country rather than fight to overthrow, and kill, the monsters that are making their existence unlivable. Probably futility. They know the chances that some outside power or coalition thereof will go to bat for the monsters is just too great. I said now watch what you say they'll be calling you a radical, a liberal, oh fanatical criminal
dialamah Posted November 22, 2015 Report Posted November 22, 2015 And so, tell us what the word "innocent" means. Innocents - non-combatants From the letter: 6. The Killing of Innocents: God says in the Qur’an: ‘And do not slay the soul [whose life] God has made inviolable, except with due cause ...’ (Al-Isra’, 17: 33); and ‘Say: “Come, I will recite that which your Lord has made a sacred duty for you: that you associate nothing with Him, that you be dutiful to parents, and that you do not slay your children, because of poverty - We will provide for you and them - and that you do not draw near any acts of lewdness, whether it be manifest or concealed, and that you do not slay the life which God has made sacred, except rightfully. This is what He has charged you with that perhaps you will understand.”’ (Al-An’am, 6: 151). The slaying of a soul—any soul—is haraam (forbidden and inviolable under Islamic Law), it is also one of the most abominable sins (mubiqat). God says in the Qur’an: ‘Because of that, We decreed for the Children of Israel that whoever slays a soul for other than a soul, or for corruption in the land, it shall be as if he had slain mankind altogether; and whoever saves the life of one, it shall be as if he had saved the life of all mankind. Our messengers have already come to them with clear proofs, but after that many of them still commit excesses in the land.’ (Al-Ma’idah, 5: 32). You have killed many innocents who were neither combatants nor armed, just because they disagree with your opinions13. _______________ 13 The Prophet did not kill the hypocrites who disagreed with him, nor did he permit that they be killed. Indeed the Prophet said: ‘So that people do not say that Muhammad killed his companions.’ Narrated by Bukhari in Kitab Tafsir al-Qur’an, no. 4907, and by Muslim in Kitab al-Birr wal-Silah, no. 2584. If you want to learn a little more, read the letter, and don't address me again unless you have something relevant to say.
Hal 9000 Posted November 22, 2015 Report Posted November 22, 2015 I have patience. Innocents - non-combatants From the letter: If you want to learn a little more, read the letter, and don't address me again unless you have something relevant to say. The people in Paris were not innocent. And, don't you address me again woman! The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant; it's just that they know so much that isn't so. - Ronald Reagan I have said that the Western world is just as violent as the Islamic world - Dialamah Europe seems to excel at fooling people to immigrate there from the ME only to chew them up and spit them back. - Eyeball Unfortunately our policies have contributed to retarding and limiting their (Muslim's) society's natural progression towards the same enlightened state we take for granted. - Eyeball
WestCoastRunner Posted November 22, 2015 Report Posted November 22, 2015 The people in Paris were not innocent. And, don't you address me again woman! You make no sense with your post. I love to see a young girl go out and grab the world by the lapels. Life's a bitch. You've got to go out and kick ass. - Maya Angelou
capricorn Posted November 22, 2015 Report Posted November 22, 2015 (edited) You are right, I was remiss. Not on purpose, just making dinner and typing - never a good combination. Thank you. I appreciate your response. Did they mostly just not want to get involved? Probably. People don't usually "step up"; there've been studies done it. Let's be clear, the example you gave is not war related but I get your point. And yes, people can be heartless. Here in Ottawa in the dead of winter, a woman was lying in a snowbank and people were literally walking over and around her thinking she was drunk or on drugs, In fact she had frozen to death right there. Shocking! From what I understand, we aren't accepting unmarried young men as refugees, so it's not like the 'fighters' are coming over anyway. In fact, the mayor of Quebec City actually said that "frustrated, single 20 year old Syrians" would be more frightening to locals than families, so families will be given priority. Sorry the link is in French, I could not find it in English. http://ici.radio-canada.ca/regions/quebec/2015/11/17/006-labeaume-ministre-mccallum-refugies-ville-quebec.shtml This gives you a sense of the diverse opinions of Canadians in the matter of refugees. Edited November 22, 2015 by Charles Anthony fixed quotes "We always want the best man to win an election. Unfortunately, he never runs." Will Rogers
marcus Posted November 22, 2015 Report Posted November 22, 2015 Regarding point 6, it must be pointed out that you and ISIS have very different ideas of what "innocent" means. As far as fundamentalist wackos are concerned, the people who were in that theatre in Paris, drinking alcohol and listening to rock music-- those people weren't innocent. They were in a "haram" place doing "haram" things. They weren't innocent. Regarding point 10, as an atheist I take no comfort in that at all. -k There again lies your problem. You somehow equate ISIS to all Muslims. They are a tiny minority compared to the rest of the diverse Muslim population in the world. "What do you think of Western civilization?" Gandhi was asked. "I think it would be a good idea," he said.
Hal 9000 Posted November 22, 2015 Report Posted November 22, 2015 There again lies your problem. You somehow equate ISIS to all Muslims. They are a tiny minority compared to the rest of the diverse Muslim population in the world. The problem is that you're not understanding what Kimmy is saying. The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant; it's just that they know so much that isn't so. - Ronald Reagan I have said that the Western world is just as violent as the Islamic world - Dialamah Europe seems to excel at fooling people to immigrate there from the ME only to chew them up and spit them back. - Eyeball Unfortunately our policies have contributed to retarding and limiting their (Muslim's) society's natural progression towards the same enlightened state we take for granted. - Eyeball
dialamah Posted November 22, 2015 Report Posted November 22, 2015 (edited) Sorry the link is in French, I could not find it in English.http://ici.radio-canada.ca/regions/quebec/2015/11/17/006-labeaume-ministre-mccallum-refugies-ville-quebec.shtml This gives you a sense of the diverse opinions of Canadians in the matter of refugees. I'm very sad I'm not bilingual. And yes, we do have very diverse opinions in Canada, probably not unlike anywhere in the world. This is why its so difficult for me to understand why people assume that as ISIS does, all Muslims believe. Oh well. Edited November 22, 2015 by dialamah
marcus Posted November 22, 2015 Report Posted November 22, 2015 The problem is that you're not understanding what Kimmy is saying. It's great that you're paying attention to replies to Kimmy, but don't you think it's better to prioritize paying attention to the replies to your comments first? Refresher: What are we talking about , Old testament Vs. quran or terrorism Vs. drone strikes? We can talk abut the "how" or the "why", but you people keep mixing things in order to make a certain point. I'm just not sure that thousands are getting slaughtered in the name of the "old Testament" bible - maybe they are. We have talked about a lot of things. Right now, we are talking about killing people and those who do it and support it. Whether they use religion to kill people or use nationalism, the end result is the same. Why is it morally okay for some people to kill by drone strikes that kills innocent people but not okay to kill innocent people by a suicide vest? "What do you think of Western civilization?" Gandhi was asked. "I think it would be a good idea," he said.
Hal 9000 Posted November 22, 2015 Report Posted November 22, 2015 It's great that you're paying attention to replies to Kimmy, but don't you think it's better to prioritize paying attention to the replies to your comments first? Refresher: We have talked about a lot of things. Right now, we are talking about killing people and those who do it and support it. Whether they use religion to kill people or use nationalism, the end result is the same. Why is it morally okay for some people to kill by drone strikes that kills innocent people but not okay to kill innocent people by a suicide vest? If you want to argue terrorism Vs. drones - fair enough, that is an argument. To argue that people are killing in the name of christianity just the same a Islam, well that argument doesn't pass the giggle test. The post that you're referring was me challenging the idea that people are killing because of what is written in the bible - somehow, you were able to bring drones into the conversation. The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant; it's just that they know so much that isn't so. - Ronald Reagan I have said that the Western world is just as violent as the Islamic world - Dialamah Europe seems to excel at fooling people to immigrate there from the ME only to chew them up and spit them back. - Eyeball Unfortunately our policies have contributed to retarding and limiting their (Muslim's) society's natural progression towards the same enlightened state we take for granted. - Eyeball
kimmy Posted November 22, 2015 Report Posted November 22, 2015 There again lies your problem. You somehow equate ISIS to all Muslims. They are a tiny minority compared to the rest of the diverse Muslim population in the world. As I keep mentioning, my issue with Islam isn't limited to ISIS or terrorism, it's also with the medieval attitudes towards women, gay people, non-Muslims, and secular law that are held by many Muslims. A few pages back I enumerated Muslim countries with population totaling well over 500 million people where gay people can be either executed or imprisoned for life. That's not an ISIS thing, that's not " a few bad apples", that's a significant portion of the Muslim World. That's disgusting to me. And people tell me "yeah, but that's not the refugees! The refugees might not hold those views!" Well, about those refugees. This article from The Guardian gives some insight into life at a refugee camp. And you can find plenty more like it, detailing the epidemic of rape and child sexual abuse that are going on in these refugee camps. If these refugees are such swell guys, why are the refugee camps full of rape? -k (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻ Friendly forum facilitator! ┬──┬◡ﾉ(° -°ﾉ)
kimmy Posted November 22, 2015 Report Posted November 22, 2015 Oh really? And you speak for Kimmy? I highly doubt that. Hal doesn't speak on my behalf, and we seldom agree on much of anything, but at least he has read what I have written. -k (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻ Friendly forum facilitator! ┬──┬◡ﾉ(° -°ﾉ)
eyeball Posted November 22, 2015 Report Posted November 22, 2015 Pretty bottom of the barrel stuff alright. Jesus what a freaking mess this issue is making of civil intelligible discourse. I should really stop underestimating just how alien right and left wing factions in our society can become to one another. Now I don't think we've seen anything yet. Unfortunately of course we have...but who would have ever imagined it would come to that in our society too? I said now watch what you say they'll be calling you a radical, a liberal, oh fanatical criminal
Guest Posted November 22, 2015 Report Posted November 22, 2015 There again lies your problem. You somehow equate ISIS to all Muslims. Is the problem with this opinion, which is common on here but completely and utterly wrong, that if you don't profess to hold it you would actually have to answer some of the charges made against Islam? Do you honestly believe that those who are disgusted by Islamic excesses, from ISIS down through blogger hacking to denying women the right to drive somehow believe that all Muslims do that? How do you feel about those Islamic excesses? I assume you feel the same way everone on here does about them. How do you make it plain, when you talk about them, that you don't mean all Muslims? If you could tell us, we could add it to all our posts, or put it in our signature or something, so you'd know we meant just the same Muslims you do.
WestCoastRunner Posted November 22, 2015 Report Posted November 22, 2015 Pretty bottom of the barrel stuff alright. Jesus what a freaking mess this issue is making of civil intelligible discourse. I should really stop underestimating just how alien right and left wing factions in our society can become to one another. Now I don't think we've seen anything yet. Unfortunately of course we have...but who would have ever imagined it would come to that in our society too? It blows my mind. I love to see a young girl go out and grab the world by the lapels. Life's a bitch. You've got to go out and kick ass. - Maya Angelou
Hal 9000 Posted November 22, 2015 Report Posted November 22, 2015 It blows my mind. Can you explain? The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant; it's just that they know so much that isn't so. - Ronald Reagan I have said that the Western world is just as violent as the Islamic world - Dialamah Europe seems to excel at fooling people to immigrate there from the ME only to chew them up and spit them back. - Eyeball Unfortunately our policies have contributed to retarding and limiting their (Muslim's) society's natural progression towards the same enlightened state we take for granted. - Eyeball
Bryan Posted November 22, 2015 Report Posted November 22, 2015 (edited) I'm not going to waste my time debating your clearly biased nonsense. Muhammad didn't write the Quran. He dictated to his followers and the Quran was written in bits and pieces and later assembled. There is no way of knowing how accurately that transcription was. Much like the bible. Entirely different from the Bible. The Bible contains many books from different authors from different times over thousands of years. Some of it is simply an account of history, some of it is allegory, some of it is instruction. The Koran was dictated entirely by Mohammed. The bible contains scores of instructions from God to kill people, including children. I don't know where the hell you get your information but you clearly need an education. The Bible contains many books from different authors from different times over thousands of years. Some of it is simply an account of history, some of it is allegory, some of it is instruction. NONE of it contains any instruction for followers of Christ to act violently towards others. Quite the opposite, Jesus strictly forbade his followers from doing so and he led by example. I don't know where you read your religious fairy tales but maybe you should study a little history. Look at the Crusades. How about the Inquisition? Yes, the Romans were particularly adept at taking advantage of people who couldn't read and lying to them about what Jesus wanted them to do. Again, I could go on and on - but you've clearly decided on your biases and I won't waste my time. I'm still waiting for you to start presenting even one valid point. Edited November 22, 2015 by Bryan
dialamah Posted November 22, 2015 Report Posted November 22, 2015 You are not a muslim. You are not innocent. She's investigating Muslim fanatics and extremists. It says so in the title. The document I posted was talking about how Muslim extremism is wrong, and why its wrong, according to 100s of Muslim clerics and scholars. Not to mention the Billion or so Muslims around the world who also think extremism is wrong.
drummindiver Posted November 22, 2015 Report Posted November 22, 2015 She's investigating Muslim fanatics and extremists. It says so in the title. The document I posted was talking about how Muslim extremism is wrong, and why its wrong, according to 100s of Muslim clerics and scholars. Not to mention the Billion or so Muslims around the world who also think extremism is wrong. There's 1,500,000,000 muslims in the world. If 1,000,000,000 think extremism is wrong, that leaves 500,000,000 muslim extremists. Almost twice as many extremists as people in the USA.
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